DOJ says Russia is meddling in the 2024 election,

[Valcazar]

Two points
1) Uncommitted and Palestine supporters have the maximum power of political activists, enough votes swing the election on a clear election easy that should be easy for Harris to change and a position that is clear and well publicized.
2) If she loses then you play the long game, the US survived 4 years or rump once. They can survive him when he's way more senile and useless. If Harris loses over support of the genocide, AIPAC is done. It will have killed a presidency.

1) No they don't.
They possibly maybe have the ability to swing the election. If they do, it will be unclear they were what swung it.
If they succeed in swinging it, they make things for their preferred position worse.

So not really maximum power of activists at all, as the actual leaders of the movement are all too aware of.

2) Yes, the "Trump isn't a problem, he's not a threat at all" is the pitch you have to make to even try to justify this tactic. It's a pitch virtually no voter who actually cares about Gaza and the Palestinians believes. But I am glad you agree "Trump is senile and so isn't a danger" is your position. Of course, "the US survived Trump the first time" implies you are more than happy to sacrifice whoever a Trump Administration damages in the meantime. You acknowledge it won't help Gaza or the Palestinians, but insist that The person AIPAC supports more and who will further AIPAC's aims winning the election will mean "AIPAC is done". (And, again, assume that the results will be obviously attributable to Harris's position when that is, in fact, most likely going to be extremely difficult to prove.)

Yes, they said that.
the Uncommitted National Movement, which for months has attempted to steer the Democratic Party toward a more critical stance on Israel, has announced it is not endorsing Kamala Harris. Neither does the organization recommend casting a third-party vote, citing the risk of splitting the two-party vote and ushering in a second term for Donald Trump.

Unless you're saying by not endorsing Harris, rump or Stein you really think that means they mean vote for Harris anyways.

Jesus you're thick.
Yes, they mean vote for Harris anyways.
Or rather - vote "anti-trump up and down the ballot".

WATCH: Leaders of Democratic protest of Israel-Hamas war won't endorse Harris but warn against Trump

Leaders of a Democratic protest vote movement against the Israel-Hamas war said Thursday that they would not endorse Vice President Kamala Harris ’ presidential bid but strongly urged their supporters to vote against Donald Trump in November.

www.pbs.org

Uncommitted won’t endorse Harris but urges voters to “block Donald Trump”

The group representing voters frustrated by the administration's policies on Gaza says Harris has made it “impossible” to endorse her.

www.motherjones.com

 

[NotADcotor]

That should be clarified.
People who, between Trump and Harris, prefer Harris, help Trump when they choose not to vote or vote third party.

Obviously, people who prefer Trump over Harris and then don't vote help Harris.



Frank's answer to this is that maybe Trump won't support Israel, or maybe he is too senile to accomplish what he would do to help Israel, and also there is no way things in Gaza can get any worse, so it doesn't matter what Trump's attitude is.
(That's when he isn't saying the Democrats have to lose because they supported Israel - losing will teach them a lesson and four years from now they will be more anti-Israel and win.)

Yeah I don't proof read what I post.
Thank yu for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

 

[NotADcotor]

2) Yes, the "Trump isn't a problem, he's not a threat at all" is the pitch you have to make to even try to justify this tactic. It's a pitch virtually no voter who actually cares about Gaza and the Palestinians believes. But I am glad you agree "Trump is senile and so isn't a danger" is your position. Of course, "the US survived Trump the first time" implies you are more than happy to sacrifice whoever a Trump Administration damages in the meantime. You acknowledge it won't help Gaza or the Palestinians, but insist that The person AIPAC supports more and who will further AIPAC's aims winning the election will mean "AIPAC is done". (And, again, assume that the results will be obviously attributable to Harris's position when that is, in fact, most likely going to be extremely difficult to prove.)

The other thing is I question the sanity of a supposed American who would throw the US under the bus to a wack job like Trump in favor of Gaza, even if they were the innocent victims and not the genocidal twat monkeys.

Trump, a threat to democracy in the US with his stated plans of fixing future elections.
Trump with his Smoot Hawley dreams of wreaking global trade to who knows what end
Trump and his Neville Chamberlain/I would invite them to invade out allies threat to the western world and global order.

That wack job.

Anyone who tries to make it easier for Trump to win because of Gaza is, even more insane than someone who thinks Trump is an honest man. It isn't even close. A total detachment from reality.

People like that can't even use the defense that they don't think Trump is all that bad because most of them are anti trumptard.

 

[Frankfooter]

1) No they don't.
They possibly maybe have the ability to swing the election. If they do, it will be unclear they were what swung it.
If they succeed in swinging it, they make things for their preferred position worse.

So not really maximum power of activists at all, as the actual leaders of the movement are all too aware of.

Is that a risk you think Harris should take, if you are so scared of rump gaining power?
Why is sending bombs for genocide so important that its worth risking losing?

2) Yes, the "Trump isn't a problem, he's not a threat at all" is the pitch you have to make to even try to justify this tactic. It's a pitch virtually no voter who actually cares about Gaza and the Palestinians believes. But I am glad you agree "Trump is senile and so isn't a danger" is your position. Of course, "the US survived Trump the first time" implies you are more than happy to sacrifice whoever a Trump Administration damages in the meantime. You acknowledge it won't help Gaza or the Palestinians, but insist that The person AIPAC supports more and who will further AIPAC's aims winning the election will mean "AIPAC is done". (And, again, assume that the results will be obviously attributable to Harris's position when that is, in fact, most likely going to be extremely difficult to prove.)

Long game, valcazar. The GOP is unlikely to change but the dems can and have. If they don't for this election they will for the next. And if they don't then voters will keep the pressure up. The question now is will Harris risk the election over support of genocide.

Jesus you're thick.
Yes, they mean vote for Harris anyways.
Or rather - vote "anti-trump up and down the ballot".

WATCH: Leaders of Democratic protest of Israel-Hamas war won't endorse Harris but warn against Trump

Leaders of a Democratic protest vote movement against the Israel-Hamas war said Thursday that they would not endorse Vice President Kamala Harris ’ presidential bid but strongly urged their supporters to vote against Donald Trump in November.

www.pbs.org

Uncommitted won’t endorse Harris but urges voters to “block Donald Trump”

The group representing voters frustrated by the administration's policies on Gaza says Harris has made it “impossible” to endorse her.

www.motherjones.com

By 'blocking trump' they are saying don't vote Green. Not do vote for Harris.

 

[Frankfooter]

The other thing is I question the sanity of a supposed American who would throw the US under the bus to a wack job like Trump in favor of Gaza, even if they were the innocent victims and not the genocidal twat monkeys.

Trump, a threat to democracy in the US with his stated plans of fixing future elections.
Trump with his Smoot Hawley dreams of wreaking global trade to who knows what end
Trump and his Neville Chamberlain/I would invite them to invade out allies threat to the western world and global order.

That wack job.

Anyone who tries to make it easier for Trump to win because of Gaza is, even more insane than someone who thinks Trump is an honest man. It isn't even close. A total detachment from reality.

People like that can't even use the defense that they don't think Trump is all that bad because most of them are anti trumptard.

Never again.

Lots of people have moral lines.
It used to be that if a politician was found lying, that was enough to end their career.
Now its not rape, felony, fraud or a suspected coup.

For valcazar that red line is attacks on the rules of governance, but genocide is ok.

Now you want people not even have a red line for genocide.
Why would you want that?

 

[kherg007]

I just don't get it.
Trump loves Netanyahu. He'll give him carte Blanche. They're both struggling to stay out of gaol.
Trump himself wants to engage in mass deportations, and says he'll reinstitute the Muslim ban.

It almost seems that this is akin to "give me what i want or else I'll destroy myself and my people."

 

[Frankfooter]

I just don't get it.
Trump loves Netanyahu. He'll give him carte Blanche. They're both struggling to stay out of gaol.
Trump himself wants to engage in mass deportations, and says he'll reinstitute the Muslim ban.

It almost seems that this is akin to "give me what i want or else I'll destroy myself and my people."

Same with Harris risking her election backing someone she clearly doesn't like and someone who clearly is working towards getting rump elected.

 

[Valcazar]

The other thing is I question the sanity of a supposed American who would throw the US under the bus to a wack job like Trump in favor of Gaza.

Note that Frank is not American and this does not affect him directly.

 

[Valcazar]

[

By 'blocking trump' they are saying don't vote Green. Not do vote for Harris.

Watch and read their statement.

“We must block Donald Trump, which is why we urge Uncommitted voters to vote against him and avoid third-party candidates that could inadvertently boost his chances, as Trump openly boasts that third parties will help his candidacy,” the group said in a statement released on Thursday. “We urge Uncommitted voters to register anti-Trump votes and vote up and down the ballot.”

I get that you really don't want to believe what the people actually involved say, but it is probably good for you to try.

 

[Valcazar]

I just don't get it.
Trump loves Netanyahu. He'll give him carte Blanche. They're both struggling to stay out of gaol.
Trump himself wants to engage in mass deportations, and says he'll reinstitute the Muslim ban.

It almost seems that this is akin to "give me what i want or else I'll destroy myself and my people."

Yes.
Frank views this as a cynical game of chicken.

 

[Frankfooter]

Note that Frank is not American and this does not affect him directly.

I have friends with family in Palestine, this is affecting them directly.

Watch and read their statement.

“We must block Donald Trump, which is why we urge Uncommitted voters to vote against him and avoid third-party candidates that could inadvertently boost his chances, as Trump openly boasts that third parties will help his candidacy,” the group said in a statement released on Thursday. “We urge Uncommitted voters to register anti-Trump votes and vote up and down the ballot.”

I get that you really don't want to believe what the people actually involved say, but it is probably good for you to try.

Yes, they think voting for Jill Stein gives power to rump so don't want voters to do that.

Yes.
Frank views this as a cynical game of chicken.

No, I view this as what you call activism.

Butler1000 said:

Ok,who do you think will do the reform.

Politicians, under pressure from activists.
Just like every other reform that has ever happened.

 

[Valcazar]

I have friends with family in Palestine, this is affecting them directly.

Fair enough.

Yes, they think voting for Jill Stein gives power to rump so don't want voters to do that.

And they urge people to cast anti-Trump votes.
Because they are playing the long game concerning their country and the anti-war movement they are fostering.

No, I view this as what you call activism.

https://terb.cc/xenforo/goto/post?id=8640423

Yes.
Uncommitted is 100% doing activism, in the exact form I describe it.
Using what pressure they have in a way they think is effective.

My argument with you has always been that what you think is effective isn't.

 

[NotADcotor]

Note that Frank is not American and this does not affect him directly.

There is still the global impact on the global order, but he is so consumed with his hatefilled genocidal dreams of river to sea Jewish genocide he just doesn't care. He seems like the sort of guy where if there was a global nuclear war that wiped out Israel but didn't send anything towards Gaza or the more Palestinian areas of the West Bank, and he heard this through say a shortwave radio broadcast he would have a smile on his face as he craps out his guts and dies as he dies from going from a falloutboy to a radiation sickness man.

 

[basketcase]

All?
Is that true?

I had thought there have been some time-limited ones proposed here and there.



Hardliners on both sides seem pretty committed to not agreeing to any permanent peace.



Both sides have walked away from the table here more than once because they didn't like what they were seeing.
Yes, anyone who says the only thing they want is for the killing to stop under any circumstances is almost certainly lying since such a person would accept any ceasefire regardless of its other burdens.

Except for the ceasefire/exchange that happened early on, I believe all the plans included indeterminate ceasefires. They had timelines for movement to a full ceasefire and full release for hostages but I don't recall any that gave specific timelines for a restart of fighting.

I agree that hardliners on both sides know that their continuing the war is in their benefit. In Israel, Netanyahu can avoid a full inquiry and counts on some center-right figures not triggering an early election when the country is at war. The differences I see are that Netanyahu will face election in less than 2 years and will at sometime need to address the massive ceasefire movement that will toss him from power. Hamas doesn't have that pressure and they have made clear that the see the people's 'sacrifice' as a benefit to their cause.

But Frank is a whole other thing as he continually argues whatever incongruous statement he thinks benefits him in the moment even if he took the exact opposite stance in another post.

 

[basketcase]

There is a direct path to a lasting peace now, basketcase.
Obey the ICJ ruling and UN resolution and allow the two state solution you've claimed to back to occur as demanded.

And once again you try to pretend a lasting peace can be achieved without the Palestinians having a say. But not surprising you would go with that as you have made clear your end goal is the removal of Israel so you don't care if Palestinian factions agree to peace.

 

[basketcase]

That was a ceasefire proposal that Biden...

Now you're claiming the UN lies. Nice.

And of course you're intentionally avoiding that Hamas' response was to add conditions in direct violation of the motion. they continue to do this as in the latest talks, they demanded a significant increase in the number of Hamas members sentenced to life to be released in exchange for the bodies of hostages hamas has executed.

 

[basketcase]

Uncommitted make a reasonable argument that withholding their votes is the best option....

It was a good tactic during the primaries but after seeing that the majority of democrats rejected their goals, all they are doing now is ensuring the democrats get punished which will only result in Palestinians (and Muslims in general) being punished under Trump.

 

[Frankfooter]

There is still the global impact on the global order, but he is so consumed with his hatefilled genocidal dreams of river to sea Jewish genocide he just doesn't care. He seems like the sort of guy where if there was a global nuclear war that wiped out Israel but didn't send anything towards Gaza or the more Palestinian areas of the West Bank, and he heard this through say a shortwave radio broadcast he would have a smile on his face as he craps out his guts and dies as he dies from going from a falloutboy to a radiation sickness man.

Sure, Israel has likely killed 200,000 Palestinians but you think its Palestinians who are genocidal.

 

[Frankfooter]

Except for the ceasefire/exchange that happened early on, I believe all the plans included indeterminate ceasefires. They had timelines for movement to a full ceasefire and full release for hostages but I don't recall any that gave specific timelines for a restart of fighting.

I agree that hardliners on both sides know that their continuing the war is in their benefit. In Israel, Netanyahu can avoid a full inquiry and counts on some center-right figures not triggering an early election when the country is at war. The differences I see are that Netanyahu will face election in less than 2 years and will at sometime need to address the massive ceasefire movement that will toss him from power. Hamas doesn't have that pressure and they have made clear that the see the people's 'sacrifice' as a benefit to their cause.

But Frank is a whole other thing as he continually argues whatever incongruous statement he thinks benefits him in the moment even if he took the exact opposite stance in another post.

During the first ceasefire Hamas returned about 100 hostages and Israel returned a few hundred Palestinian prisoners in exchange. Then Netanyahu ended the ceasefire and re-arrested the Palestinians he released.

Then you act surprised that Hamas doesn't want to do it again.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764932308249739562

 

[Frankfooter]

Now you're claiming the UN lies. Nice.

And of course you're intentionally avoiding that Hamas' response was to add conditions in direct violation of the motion. they continue to do this as in the latest talks, they demanded a significant increase in the number of Hamas members sentenced to life to be released in exchange for the bodies of hostages hamas has executed.

No, Biden lied and the UN decided to back him in the hope that a ceasefire would happen.
Netanyahu has never wanted a ceasefire, you know that.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1837522180542025902