The undeniable sad truth of this election is ...

oil&gas

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Ghawar
Climate change aside Trump will also make a better POTUS
in the eyes of Israel which means a lot.
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Israel Far-Right Netanyahu Partner Backs Trump for Tough ..

 

kherg007

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Carbon emissions dropped because no one drove during the pandemic, and a major recession. That was the upshot.
I'm happy they got more realistic about fossil fuels, not to mention having to fuel Europe in light of the Russians invading Ukraine.
 
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Zoot Allures

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I have gone off track by talking about Harris . I defer that she is a reasonable candidate in brains and stability compared to politicians in general and will make a decent President. My issue is that she does not have a brilliant grasp on Presidential issues and far too few leaders do

BUT , I digress


Consider my OP

The least of us rule the best of us

now consider the 3 original candidates in Biden, Trump and Kennedy and try to argue against my OP

By lucky chance we got rid of demencia Biden and crazy Kennedy dropped so 3 out of 4 of the candidates we have had are incompetents in the extreme


Now we have to get rid of Duck Donald

terminate his command with extreme predjuduce

 
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Valcazar

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Nope, they have to give evidence that they have the criterea
I do not have to prove they do not
So this is just "I assume all people have none of this ability until they prove to my satisfaction that they do"?
I guess that's an approach.
I start more from "not assuming everyone is incompetent unless they show me reason to think so".

Nope , I jus t want an answer, I would apprecite it if she disagreed with me then proved me wrong so I could learn but not proving your point with an educated lesson is typical politics
An answer to what, though?
It sounds like you would just prefer campaigns worked differently than they do.
Which... fair. I do too.
I just find it unlikely.

I do not know the answers so I want the politicians to educate me with evidence not what sounds good in a sound bite
No politician is going to teach a course over a campaign.
They might give in-depth answers, but the press is very unlikely to report them because the media finds that boring.

I said based on what she has taught us she would not pass the simpliest of economics courses not that she does not know anything.
She hasn't "taught us" anything.
She isn't giving an economics course.

What statements that she has said make you think she couldn't pass the simplest economics course?

The only thing you pointed to was her rejecting trickle-down economics, which puts her well in the economic mainstream.

She has a law degree so I am sure she studied ecenomics.
So she has studied it and disagrees with you.
That doesn't make her incompetent by default.

Why is it that she can create this utopia when other democrats , incuding her heroes, could not? I guess that makes them a failure
Because these are aspirational goals and working towards them is the point.
What government anywhere has waved a magic wand and had everything become a utopia?
That's not even getting into the very simple fact that there are people who disagree and oppose this who also get a say in a democracy and push back.


That is true. He just claims to be IE always lying his way into the Forbes richest person yearly edition and personal investment shows
judgement like nothing else
Personal investment is the best indicator of judgment?
Yikes.
Gonna disagree with you there, personally.

Replying to quotes within quotes, which what I am trying to here is impossible LOL
Either break them up in separate quote boxes or put your answers in a different colour to make them easier to read.
 

Valcazar

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I would add that imo military experience should be required to qualify for the position. I don't care how many experts, you shouldn't be sending people to their deaths without having had some experience with being on the other end.
That reduces the available population far too much for me.
I totally understand people wanting to make it part of their personal calculus, but pre-limiting presidential candidates to about 7% of the population doesn't seem great.
Let alone handing over qualification to a group with specific and well-honed indoctrination methods.
 

Valcazar

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Climate change aside Trump will also make a better POTUS
in the eyes of Israel which means a lot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel Far-Right Netanyahu Partner Backs Trump for Tough ..

The question is who does that mean a lot to and what does it mean to them.
 

Valcazar

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I have gone off track by talking about Harris . I defer that she is a reasonable candidate in brains and stability compared to politicians in general and will make a decent President. My issue is that she does not have a brilliant grasp on Presidential issues and far too few leaders do
Name one single presidential candidate in the last 50 years who lives up to this ideal of yours?
If it is one never lived up to, then I will ask what your point is?

Are there any people on the planet who live up to the ideal you are espousing here?

The least of us rule the best of us
Right.
It's absurd on its face, because arguing that these people are "The least of us" is clearly wrong.
The only one who even remotely is in the running for that is Trump and many people would point to his success as proof he can't be "the least of us".

But that's attacking your headline and you can say that would just be hyperbole.

But you then said they were all incompetent only to back down immediately when confronted with Harris.
Walz and - sadly - even Vance clearly also pass any reasonable bar of competence.

now consider the 3 original candidates in Biden, Trump and Kennedy and try to argue against my OP
Easily.
Biden had 50 years of experience and was particularly known for his international expertise.
His negotiation skills are well documented and mostly admitted to even by his critics.
He has served on multiple committees and as vice president, exposing him to every facet of expertise you claimed was necessary.
His results as President have been far better than some of us expected.

He over-qualifies according to your OP.

By lucky chance we got rid of demencia Biden and crazy Kennedy dropped so 3 out of 4 of the candidates we have had are incompetents in the extreme


Two were, by your own standard.

If you just admitted this wasn't about an objective standard but just "I don't like the candidates", then fine.
Personal opinions are personal.
 

Zoot Allures

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Jan 23, 2017
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Name one single presidential candidate in the last 50 years who lives up to this ideal of yours?
If it is one never lived up to, then I will ask what your point is?
Touche

I am not an expert on political leaders but I think the framers of the American constitution were amazingly thoughtful
I was using hyperbole to make my point but my point remains great leaders are seldom in politics
Are there any people on the planet who live up to the ideal you are espousing here?
Of course.

We have amazing technology because of those small handful of geniuses who created it but they went into the humanities and science rather than waste their life away in the cess pool of politics and business

For that we should be eternally grateful yet we idolize athletes and actors and not those precious few who gave so much to so many

The political system does not seek out the best of us to lead


It's absurd on its face, because arguing that these people are "The least of us" is clearly wrong.
The only one who even remotely is in the running for that is Trump and many people would point to his success as proof he can't be "the least of us".
Trump has intelligence after all he became President as an outsider
but so did Hitler and now Putin . I find Trump an enigma because he had the brains to become President but says the most childish beliefs
and has a mental disease in meglomania and now dementia

I did not say they were the dumbest of us


But you then said they were all incompetent only to back down immediately when confronted with Harris.
Walz and - sadly - even Vance clearly also pass any reasonable bar of competence.
Ok, I enjoy your insight and so I need to refine what I said.
I was using hyperbole, I assumed that was obvious

We are not lead by the greatest of us and all too often by the least of us
Easily.
Biden had 50 years of experience and was particularly known for his international expertise.
His negotiation skills are well documented and mostly admitted to even by his critics.
He has served on multiple committees and as vice president, exposing him to every facet of expertise you claimed was necessary.
His results as President have been far better than some of us expected.

He over-qualifies according to your OP.
That was before this election, he is now way over the hill and the least of us . Of the four cadidates in this election only one is not the least of us, not that they are stupid, just the least of us to be leaders


If you just admitted this wasn't about an objective standard but just "I don't like the candidates", then fine.
Personal opinions are personal.
I am using an objective standard.

Our leaders should be more qualified to do their job than anyone on the planet is in theirs as it is the most important job. They should be better at what they do than the geniuses who flew us to the moon, they are not

My OP was hyperbole to make as point but it is still true if you parse it

The least of us rule the best of us

is true sometimes this election is a case in point

4 candidates, Harris, Trump, Biden and Kennedy (and throw in the 2 VPs) and only one worthy of leadership and even Harris is not the best of us , she is just not the least of us

Consider we had only meglamaniac Trump and Dementia Biden at one time and holy fuck up what kind of pathetic political system would give us a wretched choice like that

Consider that, deeply. I am not making anything up. Trump has been diagnosed as a meglomaniac, extreme narcicist and a sociopath by
a team of well renowned psychologists who wrote a book about him. Biden has been diagnosed as dementia by experts observing him and so has Trump.

The least of us ruling the best of us in its full ugly display

That this can happen in America needs to be fixed

Whle they are better leaders than someone with Down’s syndrome that, obviously , was not the standard I was using.

The average Joe on the street would do a better job than the other three as he would defer to the experts

I thankyou for making me think about what I said and , apart from my intentional hyperbole, I do not bactrack


What do you think ?
 
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Zoot Allures

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Yes they both suck, I wish someone else was there , but Trump is a better business man and will run the country better.
I do not know where to begin so I will just inform you that you believe Trump is a good business man because he says it. Trump is the most extreme liar, every sentence has two lies in it when he says a complete sentence . His daddy gave him a fortune he has blown , he says he is a billionaire but he is not, if he did not cheat and scam at everything he would be in the poor house
 

Valcazar

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Touche
I am not an expert on political leaders but I think the framers of the American constitution were amazingly thoughtful
They were, but they made all kinds of mistakes in designing their system since they were making it up as they went along.
They were making guesses at theory while also negotiating among various groups and factions that wanted things for their own reasons.
The result is an amazing document that was a real step forward - and was also full of ideas that have proven to be terrible and difficult to fix.

I was using hyperbole to make my point but my point remains great leaders are seldom in politics
Sure.
But they are also seldom everywhere else.
Counting on Philosopher Kings is a terrible idea.

Democracy is never going to get you that except by accident anyway.
Presidents and Prime Ministers shouldn't be held up to be gods and heroes anyway.
They should be competent managers and decent people.

Of course. We have amazing technology because of those small handful of geniuses who created it but they went into the humanities and science rather than waste their life away in the cess pool of politics
What?
OMG, is this "the Great, Indespensible Man" theory of things?

Holy fuck - we need fewer people who think they are geniuses and more people who just do the work and make things advance.
It is a tragedy that public service and politics have been so devalued in our culture, I agree.
But it isn't like there are magic people out there who will fix it all if we only get them in power.

The political system does not seek out the best of us to lead
You're talking to someone who has seriously entertained (and still does in some form ) the idea that elections should be replaced by a lottery.
The point of Democracy is not to find "the best of us to lead". The myth of heroic leadership is a trap.
It isn't even primarily about collective decision making.
The point of Democracy to force competition for power into peaceful channels and limit the ability of one group to entirely capture the state.

Trump has intelligence after all he became President as an outsider
but so did Hitler and now Putin . I find Trump an enigma because he had the brains to become President but says the most childish beliefs
and has a mental disease in meglomania and now dementia
Why does that make him an enigma?
He had the power, influence, and luck to become President.
And some of that involved a certain type of intelligence.
But there isn't some generalized "if they are smart about this they are smart about the other thing" system in human brains.
It can often line up like that, but there doesn't seem to be anything requiring it.

I did not say they were the dumbest of us
You said they were "the least of us".

Ok, I enjoy your insight and so I need to refine what I said.
I was using hyperbole, I assumed that was obvious

We are not lead by the greatest of us and all too often by the least of us
Outside of Trump, I can't think of one time we've been led by the "least" of us.
Maybe I just don't know what you mean when you say that.
I don't even know what metric you would use for that.
There are so many ways you can take the measure of someone and decide they are great.
Even Trump, who is a genuinely horrible human being on many of those measures, probably isn't the worst on ALL of them.

That was before this election, he is now way over the hill and the least of us .
Biden is still probably more effective and more on the ball than most people.
No where near the least of us.
I'd trust him in power over just about every single person on this board.

Of the four cadidates in this election only one is not the least of us, not that they are stupid, just the least of us to be leaders
OK, I clearly have NO idea what you mean by "the least of us".
This statement makes no sense to me at all.

I am using an objective standard. Our leaders should be more qualified to do there job than anyone on the planet is in theirs as it is the most important job. They should be better at what they do than the geniuses who flew us to the moon, they are not
So you have never thought a single leader on the planet was up to snuff?
Wow.
That's depressing.

I think that is an insane, unreal, and non-objective standard, but ok, if that's your standard then obviously all 4 candidates fail to qualify.

My OP was hyperbole to make as point but it is still true if you parse it

The least of us rule the best of us
You are going to have to explain "the least of us" then.
If it is literally "Anyone other than the single best person on the planet - better at what they do than the geniuses who flew us to the moon" then obviously we are ruled by "the least of us" because there is only one person who meets that standard and the odds are they wouldn't be American in the first place.

4 candidates and only one worth leadership and even Harris is not the best of us , she is just not the least of us
Walz is absolutely worth leadership from what I've seen of him.

Vance is competent, but a moral vacuum.
Trump is incompetent and dangerous.

The average Joe on the street would do a better job than the other three as he would defer to the experts
Are you joining me in arguing for sortition then?

Why do you think Harris and Walz wouldn't defer to the experts?

Hell, even Vance probably would on many things.
Trump defers to people all the time.

(That just brings in the issue of "which experts do you defer to"?)
 

Valcazar

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Yes they both suck, I wish someone else was there , but Trump is a better business man and will run the country better.
The idea Trump is a good business man is suspect, to say the least.

But also, "running the country like a business" is a recipe for absolute failure.
The last thing you want to do is that, unless you want your country to become a shit hole.

That doesn't mean someone who is good at running a business can't run a country well. Executive experience is transferable, of course.
But "the better business man would run the country better" is just a very bad heuristic to use.
 

Frankfooter

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We have amazing technology because of those small handful of geniuses who created it but they went into the humanities and science rather than waste their life away in the cess pool of politics and business
So would Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates would be examples of people you think would make a great leader?
 

Zoot Allures

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Jan 23, 2017
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They were, but they made all kinds of mistakes in designing their system since they were making it up as they went along.
They were making guesses at theory while also negotiating among various groups and factions that wanted things for their own reasons.
The result is an amazing document that was a real step forward - and was also full of ideas that have proven to be terrible and difficult to fix.



Sure.
But they are also seldom everywhere else.
Counting on Philosopher Kings is a terrible idea.

Democracy is never going to get you that except by accident anyway.
Presidents and Prime Ministers shouldn't be held up to be gods and heroes anyway.
They should be competent managers and decent people.



What?
OMG, is this "the Great, Indespensible Man" theory of things?

Holy fuck - we need fewer people who think they are geniuses and more people who just do the work and make things advance.
It is a tragedy that public service and politics have been so devalued in our culture, I agree.
But it isn't like there are magic people out there who will fix it all if we only get them in power.



You're talking to someone who has seriously entertained (and still does in some form ) the idea that elections should be replaced by a lottery.
The point of Democracy is not to find "the best of us to lead". The myth of heroic leadership is a trap.
It isn't even primarily about collective decision making.
The point of Democracy to force competition for power into peaceful channels and limit the ability of one group to entirely capture the state.



Why does that make him an enigma?
He had the power, influence, and luck to become President.
And some of that involved a certain type of intelligence.
But there isn't some generalized "if they are smart about this they are smart about the other thing" system in human brains.
It can often line up like that, but there doesn't seem to be anything requiring it.



You said they were "the least of us".



Outside of Trump, I can't think of one time we've been led by the "least" of us.
Maybe I just don't know what you mean when you say that.
I don't even know what metric you would use for that.
There are so many ways you can take the measure of someone and decide they are great.
Even Trump, who is a genuinely horrible human being on many of those measures, probably isn't the worst on ALL of them.



Biden is still probably more effective and more on the ball than most people.
No where near the least of us.
I'd trust him in power over just about every single person on this board.



OK, I clearly have NO idea what you mean by "the least of us".
This statement makes no sense to me at all.



So you have never thought a single leader on the planet was up to snuff?
Wow.
That's depressing.

I think that is an insane, unreal, and non-objective standard, but ok, if that's your standard then obviously all 4 candidates fail to qualify.



You are going to have to explain "the least of us" then.
If it is literally "Anyone other than the single best person on the planet - better at what they do than the geniuses who flew us to the moon" then obviously we are ruled by "the least of us" because there is only one person who meets that standard and the odds are they wouldn't be American in the first place.



Walz is absolutely worth leadership from what I've seen of him.

Vance is competent, but a moral vacuum.
Trump is incompetent and dangerous.



Are you joining me in arguing for sortition then?

Why do you think Harris and Walz wouldn't defer to the experts?

Hell, even Vance probably would on many things.
Trump defers to people all the time.

(That just brings in the issue of "which experts do you defer to"?)
Let me try to be summary as you make me
think and tire me out LOL

I find your paragraph on democracy to be eloquent

I thought of an answer to your question

The least of us is anyone who is not the best of us
Some are more least than others

As to how to find them and put them in power I do not know,
I did not say I had the answer

How did sortitions work for Greece ?

How about a lady living in pond water handing out swords?


Yes, there have been the best of us as leaders through history
but I am not an historian

You are dead wrong about Biden. He does not know what room he is in if he is not reading from a teleprompter. Think of his condition in 4 years if he got in. He was a good leader although history will tell if he was the best of us



Waltz is a football coach, his socialists policies scare me as you are messing with the free enterprise. I hope he gets solid economic advice before he takes us down the rabbit hole

As to Trump listening to advisors he literally laughs at scientists right in their face and does it on TV

Yes , I trust Harris to overide her ego and listen to advisors
and your question about "which experts do you defer to"?
leads me directly to my OP quote.

The best of us has to have refined knowledge on all pertinent topics or how else can they choose the best experts?

You can defer to the experts but you cannot abrogate your reponsibility to choose the experts, you have to do it. You got no choice. That is the defining quality of a great leader, so you have to have a refined understanding of the topic to be the best of us leader
 
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Zoot Allures

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Jan 23, 2017
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So would Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates would be examples of people you think would make a great leader?
It takes several qualities, genius is just one so the circle is small

Elon Musk is not a geniuis

He admits it
 
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Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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That reduces the available population far too much for me.
I totally understand people wanting to make it part of their personal calculus, but pre-limiting presidential candidates to about 7% of the population doesn't seem great.
Let alone handing over qualification to a group with specific and well-honed indoctrination methods.
Considering the criteria to get into the volunteer military and gain rank, I'd say its an excellent place for the vetting process to start. Add in the mental testing done. Lessons learned pushing one's self, team work, ability to assess people based on merit and ability, so much more.

And As I said, knowing how it feels to be in the position to be ordered to your own death will give you the wisdom and gravitas when have to do it.
 

Leimonis

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The undeniable sad truth is that there will be another Jan 6 insurrection.
No there won’t. If they couldn’t do it to support the incumbent they sure won’t be able to do it now.

There will be shenanigans with certification though.
 
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