Toronto Passions

St. Anne’s Anglican Church burns down in minutes. How does this happen?

Zoot Allures

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The Sunday morning blaze caused massive damage at St. Anne’s Anglican Church,
a national historic site where “extraordinary” early paintings by
three Group of Seven members and other prominent Canadian artists were installed along the interior in the 1920s.

Why are there not adequate fire systems installed in this age ?

Within minutes of fire noticed by the guy who opens the church all is lost

This is Toronto's Notre Dame

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SchlongConery

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Guy comes into the church at 8:00 am to get ready for Sunday services, likely switches on the lights, some fans etc and next thing there is a fire.

PURE speculation but the first thing that came to mind that would not surprise me would be electrical wiring in the ceiling f the basement/wood floor or ceiling of the church itself. All wood framing and being tinder dry it would go up like crazy! And I doubt any sprinkler system would have acted fast enough to trip and sprayed enough water UP to save it if it started in the ceiling of that wood building.

I can imagine some well meaning handymen might have done some re-wiring or installed/changed fixtures in the basement of the church or something over the years. Or a mix-match of old aluminium wiring and copper? An overheated wire against hundred year old dry rough sawn timber....🔥

Our church had the old "knob and tube" style wiring until there was a small fire sometime in the 70's. I remeber my parents contributing to a fund to replace all the wiring. Some people said that the church members should DIY etc. They did get pro's, and did it in phases, but there were still some of those push button switches in some walls where they must not have been able to pull new wires etc. Even then, a few years ago it still had those. push button switches in some places.

I bought an investment house back in 2003 or so. Built in 1918 and same owners for past 60 years. It still had some knob and tube wiring despite most of the system being upgraded at some point. Oldwiring wasn't removed so you couldn't tell what wires were hot or dead etc. Even then it had a fuse panel, not breakers. And two blade/prong outlets. Had to replace everything to get insurance. Fucking Building Dept in the medium sized municipality made a big stink about it being a designated "Heritage" building and I had to jump through a bunch of hoops and paperwork, approval from the Heritage Committee etc.



 
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SchlongConery

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Zoot Allures

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I believe they still do not know cause of Notre Dame fire other than medieval old wood becoming tinder
and there was some construction work being done.

This sounds like Nore Dame. All that is left is the walls and lucky the churchs were empty

It puzzles me that adequate fire suppression systems have not been designed for historic buildings made of wood, considering the consequences
 
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K Douglas

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Room 112
Only the hundredth time this has happened in Trudeau's Canada ...
Yup. I remember seeing a stat that Christian denominated church fires have increased significantly since the pandemic started. Much of that was due to the residential schools backlash. Trudeau and his godless gov't doesn't give a shit.
 

boobtoucher

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Oh boy, the Facebook Mafia is out early.

Churches are maintained by the parish, and generally don't have a lot of cash on hand. Repairs and maintenance are performed by well meaning church members generally, and decisions on spending are made by board members who are pious, but not technical experts. Multiply that amount of cobbling by 100 years of service, and you have a tremendous risk of failure of all kinds of systems.

Nothing in the building code compels retrofits. Old buildings aren't required to have sprinklers installed, and a church board is never going to spend 250k to install them when the roof is leaking and the basement is crumbling.
 

Zoot Allures

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Oh boy, the Facebook Mafia is out early.

Churches are maintained by the parish, and generally don't have a lot of cash on hand. Repairs and maintenance are performed by well meaning church members generally, and decisions on spending are made by board members who are pious, but not technical experts. Multiply that amount of cobbling by 100 years of service, and you have a tremendous risk of failure of all kinds of systems.

Nothing in the building code compels retrofits. Old buildings aren't required to have sprinklers installed, and a church board is never going to spend 250k to install them when the roof is leaking and the basement is crumbling.

But what about insurance? Will a company even insure such a building without retrofits? IInsurance costs should compel them to retrofit


I would think Notre Dame had the best fire retrofit available and it went just like St Anne
 
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boobtoucher

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But what about insurance? Will a company even insure such a building without retrofits? IInsurance costs should compel them to retrofit


I would think Notre Dame had the best fire retrofit available and it went just like St Anne
No sprinklers @ Notre Dame. https://www.aferm.org/2024/04/29/the-fire-at-notre-dame-the-rest-of-the-story/

The trouble with historic buildings is that they're not designed for sprinklers. If you install heads in a way that meet code (which you have to), you end up with bright red pipes criss-crossing the visible space of the building. Destroys the heritage value.

Now, I'm absolutely not a preservationist, we should be tearing down shitty old buildings whenever possible,. But the truly beautiful historic buildings should be enjoyed as they are and if they fail, well, then aren't we glad our short lifespans intersected with theirs. No point visiting the Sistine Chapel once it is sprinklered and lit in accordance with current code, and all the hazardous substances have been removed.
 

shakenbake

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I think it’s more likely to be arson.
Just around the time it would be declared a historical building? That happened to the junction train station around Keele and Annette a number of years ago, if I recall correctly. I am not sure if they did confirm arson, but it was suspicious. New construction development followed subsequently.
 
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SchlongConery

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Just around the time it would be declared a historical building? That happened to the junction train station around Keele and Annette a number of years ago, if I recall correctly. I am not sure if they did confirm arson, but it was suspicious. New construction development followed subsequently.
This church was declared a National Historic Site back in the 1990’s already
 
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SchlongConery

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I think it’s more likely to be arson.
Why? It started inside an empty church a few minutes after the person (caretaker or congregation member) entered the building at 8 AM on Sunday morning to prepare for services.

So either he did it or somebody set him up in the fire perfectly?

Maybe you’re watching too many television shows. ;)
 

Zoot Allures

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Interesting read suggesting a whole dept whose job was to prevent fires at Notre Dame was incompetent


The Fire at Notre Dame: The Rest of the Story - AFERM - Association for Federal Enterprise Risk Management




But even as a new golden rooster, a national emblem of France, was placed atop the new spire last December, taking the place of the original that has been destroyed, investigators had still failed to pinpoint with certainty the fire’s cause. It was either a smoldering cigarette, discarded by one of the workers involved in the renovation of the cathedral that was underway at the time, or possibly a short-circuit from a construction elevator.

While Notre Dame had an elaborate fire safety plan, the creator of that plan, and his successor, had refused to revisit the decision not to equip the cathedral’s attic with fireproof partitions or an automatic sprinkler because of their singular focus on preserving the historical integrity of the “forest”, as the attic was called, in reference to the hundreds of oak trees harvested in the 12th and 13th centuries that made up the structure. The creator of the plan also wrongly assumed that any fire igniting in the attic would burn slowly through the thick, dense timbers, allowing time for a fire to be confirmed and extinguished.

Since the fire and its aftermath, however, new details have come to light about lax fire safety practices and unheeded warnings that further heightened an already high level of risk that a fire, were one to break out in the cathedral, would likely have devastating consequences.

In 2016, three years before the fire, and in the wake of the November 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris, researchers from France’s National Center for Scientific Research had been tasked with performing updated risk assessments of cultural sites, including Notre Dame. The evaluation of Notre Dame warned that the cathedral was vulnerable to fire, especially in the attic where a concentration of centuries of dust could have an explosive effect if triggered by a short circuit of the electrical wires of the alarm system or by scaffolding used for renovation work. The researchers called out the roof in particular as susceptible to fire and said it was essential that steps be taken to protect it by installing a sprinkler system.

For reasons unknown, these recommendations went unheeded by the Regional Cultural Affairs Directorate (DRAC), the authority responsible for fire prevention at Notre Dame. While not allowing installation of a sprinkler system, however, the DRAC did allow clergy to install electric bells in the roof and the spire – actions that ran contrary to safety regulations.
 
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SchlongConery

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Oh boy, the Facebook Mafia is out early.

Churches are maintained by the parish, and generally don't have a lot of cash on hand. Repairs and maintenance are performed by well meaning church members generally, and decisions on spending are made by board members who are pious, but not technical experts. Multiply that amount of cobbling by 100 years of service, and you have a tremendous risk of failure of all kinds of systems.

Nothing in the building code compels retrofits. Old buildings aren't required to have sprinklers installed, and a church board is never going to spend 250k to install them when the roof is leaking and the basement is crumbling.
This has been my experience too. Same with a lot of member run and funded associations that have fixed assets that really should have proactive maintenance.
 

Zoot Allures

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But the truly beautiful historic buildings should be enjoyed as they are and if they fail, well, then aren't we glad our short lifespans intersected with theirs.
No point visiting the Sistine Chapel once it is sprinklered and lit in accordance with current code, and all the hazardous substances have been removed.

Think about what you said. The fire endangered a neighborhood that was evacuated.
What if it happened at night which would have delayed fire dept and everyone was asleep?
What if church was full?

Such buildings should be shut down, electricity blocked and whatever else is required to prevent fires
until historic buildings pass extreme safety codes designed specifically for such tinder box fire hazards

I refer you to post 15


Just a thought, maybe they could remain open like they were designed to be before electricity but with strict codes

That would mean no heat, no light and no fire ( candles) and no electricity,
and, most important, no hellfire sermons



1718137525331.png

It would be cold on a lot of days but that is how they did it, but today you could have plumbing, instead of outhouses,
just no hot water as that means water heater which means electricity (so no running water in the winter which would mean no church)

They just bundled up and came to church, but nowadays no one would come on a bad day
but a nice summer day would fill up the nave (room where sermon is given)
being lit by sunlight through stained glass (that was their orginal purpose) and by nightfall building is closed



And, just for fun, everyone has to walk to church or ride a horse


1718136877741.png


And, because fire is outside, we could bring in the crowds with some of this


1718137300381.png

then we could charge admission so we could retrograde the church so we could have some hot water !!!!

and open the freakin church up!!!
 
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SchlongConery

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Interesting. Is there an investigation going on to see how the fire started?
Whwt do you think? 😜

But, yes, of course there will be an investigation. The Ontario Fire Marshal is obligated to investigate under at least two provisions of the FPPA

(1) of the FPPA . Under clause 9. (2) (a) of the FPPA , it is a duty of the Fire Marshal to investigate the cause, origin, and circumstances of any fire or of any explosion or condition that in the opinion of the Fire Marshal might have caused a fire, explosion, loss of life, or damage to property

  • Fires or explosions where the loss is significant to the community. The local authority having jurisdiction has the discretion of which method they choose to classify a significant loss. Note that significant loss is classified as being at least either $1M or twice the residential average sale price for that community. The local authority having jurisdiction has the discretion of which method they choose to classify a significant loss.

    Examples of: “significant to the community” may include, but are not limited to, fires at religious institutions or fires that appear to have been intentionally set and targeted towards a certain type of establishment.
 
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