St. Anne’s Anglican Church burns down in minutes. How does this happen?

[SchlongConery]

Old wood framing. dried timbers, wood structure not covered with sheet rock. = Fire hazard.

It was interesting to note that in the Notre Dame Cathedral, pre-fire recommendations (that were largely ignored) mentioned the accumulation of hundreds of years of dust in the attic, was a potential explosion risk. Working up there, even walking around stirring up dust or trying to sweep or vacuum it up could lead to the creation of a stoichiometric mixture that could then be ignited by the tiniest static discharge. Like grain elevator explosions. I'm sure they knew this but you can lessen this risk by applying a mist of wetting agents to the surfaces, or even having a fogging system to keep down the dust during the clean up. For lots of reasons that involve so many people and agencies, al with their own opinions and agendas, it's often the case that NOTHING ever gets done before it's too late.

 

[SchlongConery]

Historic church fire not deemed suspicious so far: police
Investigation continues at St. Anne's Anglican Church, which housed priceless artifacts

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/st-annes-church-fire-update-1.7230126#:~:text=St.%20Anne's%20Anglican%20Church%20was,under%20the%20Ontario%20Heritage%20Act.

....
The fire is being investigated by members of Toronto Police Service, Toronto Fire Services and the Office of the Fire Marshal and Emergency Management.

It was still too early to determine the "cause, origin, and circumstance" of the fire, Sean Driscoll, a spokesperson for the Office of the Fire Marshal, said in an email Monday.

Since the cause remains unknown, the fire "is not considered suspicious at this time," Const. Shannon Eames, a spokesperson for Toronto police, said in an email.

St. Anne's Anglican Church was built in Toronto's Little Portugal neighbourhood between 1907 and 1908. The church was designated a national historic site in 1996. In 1980, the City of Toronto also designated the church under the Ontario Heritage Act.

 

[Zoot Allures]

It was interesting to note that in the Notre Dame Cathedral, pre-fire recommendations (that were largely ignored) mentioned the accumulation of hundreds of years of dust in the attic, was a potential explosion risk. Working up there, even walking around stirring up dust or trying to sweep or vacuum it up could lead to the creation of a stoichiometric mixture that could then be ignited by the tiniest static discharge. Like grain elevator explosions. I'm sure they knew this but you can lessen this risk by applying a mist of wetting agents to the surfaces, or even having a fogging system to keep down the dust during the clean up. For lots of reasons that involve so many people and agencies, al with their own opinions and agendas, it's often the case that NOTHING ever gets done before it's too late.

Such tender situations can ignite on their own by spontaneous combustion .

For example, farmers barns burn down as bacteria grows in moist hay then heats up until combustion.

You should never bail wet hay!

 

[Zoot Allures]

Maybe we should consult Mary Taylor Greene




“God is sending America strong signs to tell us to repent. Earthquakes and eclipses and many more things to come. I pray that our country listens,” the Republican from Georgia warned.


ECLIPSES IS A SIGN FROM GOD!!!! We knew that eclipse was coming a hundred years ago!! How stupid is that woman !!???

 

[SchlongConery]

FWIW, my bet is that it was electrical in origin.

If so, it will relatively easy to identify. Depends on when the guy who came in at 8:00 to open up switched on whatever, lights, fans etc smelled smoke. If it was after, then they'd look for and at the wiring fixtures which were activated. Even though the insulation will be burned right off, you can still see pitting on the wire where there would have been arcing. Unless the fire burned so hot to melt the copper. Wood fires taht create their own "firestorm" draft can reach 1100 deg C. And copper melts at 1,085 C.

Even absent wiring arcing, if the smoke appeared after turning on something, the Fire Marshal can still reasonably infer the proximate cause was electrical. The maintenance and repair history of the church will be investigated. And if there was recent electrical (or other) work done, that could be related to the timing of the guy coming i... then that can contribute to the determination of a proximate cause.

I hope other Churches and historic buildings take note of this fire. Even if it wasn't electrical, they should all re-visit their fire plans.

I don't think there are going to be typical black iron pipes and tradtional sprinkler heads installed and running around. But I wonder if there are systems that could fog the interior space with an ultra high pressure pump such that it could slow the progression of the fire by lowering the flash point of the combustion by-product gases? Or in-floor sprinklers that shoot UP/. You'd need to have a huge water supply line from the watermain and/or a big cistern though.. Typical 1" service isn't going to do it. And you;d need booster pumps. You can see the external fire department connections on big buildings. They don't supply the firefighters with water. They get connected to the pumper truck which boosts the water pressure from the hydrant so it can reach the high floors with sufficient pressure and volume to create an adequate spray pattern.

 

[SchlongConery]

Such tender situations can ignite on their own by spontaneous combustion .

For example, farmers barns burn down that way as bacteria grows in moist hay then heats up until combustion.

You should never bail wet hay!

Hey Zoot, what kind of bucket would you bail a bale of wet hay with anyways?

But yeah, also so it doesn't rot. Hay is just dried grass so when you cut it, it is already wet. My uncle had a farm that I worked at from time to time durig haying season. Even from when I was about 10 years old I was driving the tractor pulling the wagon while the men loaded and stacked the bales on the hay wagon! I also got to run the rotary rake to swath the dried hay. Never got to run the mower or the baler. He got a "swather" which cut and swathed the grass into windrows. But the best hay was left to dry flat for a couple days, then raked into rows. Ahhhh... those summers haying and shooting groundhogs brings back fond memories!

 

[SchlongConery]

empty

I think you posted before you commented.

 

[Zoot Allures]

What kind of bucket would you bail a bale of wet hay with anyways?

But yeah, also so it doesn't rot. Hay is just dried grass so when you cut it, it is already wet. My uncle had a farm that I worked at from time to time durig haying season. Even from when I was about 10 years old I was driving the tractor pulling the wagon while the men loaded and stacked the bales on the hay wagon! I also got to run the rotary rake to swath the dried hay. Never got to run the mower or the baler. He got a "swather" which cut and swathed the grass into windrows. But the best hay was left to dry flat for a couple days, then raked into rows. Ahhhh... those summers haying and shooting groundhogs brings back fond memories!

Me too! The rake would turn the hay over so it would dry on both sides.
It puzzled me why wet hay would catch fire, that made no sense. Now I know why.

 

[Zoot Allures]

I think you posted before you commented.

Yeah , I did. I was gonna be a wise ass and state that it is gonna be




time at St Annes during investigation as they are out to blame somebody as that is their job
and they want the public to feel safer now that they found the cause , even if they have doubts

I learned that is how it is done on "Mayday" the airplane crash documentary series

The investigators will not give up until they can find cause even if it is nebulous.

They need to close the books.

 

[SchlongConery]

Yeah , I did. I was gonna be a wise ass and state that it is gonna be

View attachment 333315


time at St Annes during investigation as they are out to blame somebody as that is their job
and they want the public to feel safer now that they found the cause , even if they have doubts

I have worked with the Ontario Fire Marshal in the past and I did not get any impression whatsoever they are out to get anyone. In fact, it has been my experience that they are reluctant to assign cause, and especially blame, unless they are absolutely sure of the cause. And only assign "blame" or charges against clear cases of affirmative negligence or deliberately and knowingly flouting the Fire Code etc.

Now in this case, if the Church hired a kijiji handyman to do electrical work more than changing fixtures and they knew that they should have hired an electrician and taken out a permit for wiring or new circuits.. that is another kettle of fish.

The ESA HATES and charges the fuck out of handymen and general contractors who do their own electrical work that needs a permit. Big fines too!


Check this page out to see how active they are enforcing and convicting these Kijiji/Kash Kontractors!

Administrative Penalties and Convictions

An Administrative Penalty is a monetary fine that can be imposed on individuals who fail to comply with certain provisions of the Electricity Act, 1998…

esasafe.com

This ONE basement renovator got fined over $12,000 for various infractions!

 Between May 1 and August 31 of 2022, 1071034 Ontario


Limited (“Corporation”) was hired by consumers to renovate the basement of the residential property located at 4 Tulip Tree Road, Niagara-on-the-Lake (“Property”).


The Corporation installed:


o pot lights;


o wiring for an electric fireplace;


o heated flooring in a bathroom; and


o some switches.


 After the Corporation completed the work, the ESA received an anonymous complaint alleging that a non- LEC had performed electrical work at the Property.


Upon investigation, the ESA discovered that the


Corporation had:


o completed the electrical work without an electrical contractor’s license;


o failed to file a Notification of Work; and


o concealed the electrical work after completion


without having been inspected.


 An LEC was hired by Warren Mechanical to complete the electrical work and repair infractions.

 

[Zoot Allures]

I have worked with the Ontario Fire Marshal in the past and I did not get any impression whatsoever they are out to get anyone. In fact, it has been my experience that they are reluctant to assign cause, and especially blame, unless they are absolutely sure of the cause. And only assign "blame" or charges against clear cases of affirmative negligence or deliberately and knowingly flouting the Fire Code etc.

Now in this case, if the Church hired a kijiji handyman to do electrical work more than changing fixtures and they knew that they should have hired an electrician and taken out a permit for wiring or new circuits.. that is another kettle of fish.

The ESA HATES and charges the fuck out of handymen and general contractors who do their own electrical work that needs a permit. Big fines too!


Check this page out to see how active they are enforcing and convicting these Kijiji/Kash Kontractors!

Administrative Penalties and Convictions

An Administrative Penalty is a monetary fine that can be imposed on individuals who fail to comply with certain provisions of the Electricity Act, 1998…

esasafe.com

This ONE basement renovator got fined over $12,000 for various infractions!

 Between May 1 and August 31 of 2022, 1071034 Ontario


Limited (“Corporation”) was hired by consumers to renovate the basement of the residential property located at 4 Tulip Tree Road, Niagara-on-the-Lake (“Property”).


The Corporation installed:


o pot lights;


o wiring for an electric fireplace;


o heated flooring in a bathroom; and


o some switches.


 After the Corporation completed the work, the ESA received an anonymous complaint alleging that a non- LEC had performed electrical work at the Property.


Upon investigation, the ESA discovered that the


Corporation had:


o completed the electrical work without an electrical contractor’s license;


o failed to file a Notification of Work; and


o concealed the electrical work after completion


without having been inspected.


 An LEC was hired by Warren Mechanical to complete the electrical work and repair infractions.

That is why I like you



You also taught me not to leave fan on when you leave the house

Then there is

 

[Robert Mugabe]

Interesting read suggesting a whole dept whose job was to prevent fires at Notre Dame was incompetent


The Fire at Notre Dame: The Rest of the Story - AFERM - Association for Federal Enterprise Risk Management



But even as a new golden rooster, a national emblem of France, was placed atop the new spire last December, taking the place of the original that has been destroyed, investigators had still failed to pinpoint with certainty the fire’s cause. It was either a smoldering cigarette, discarded by one of the workers involved in the renovation of the cathedral that was underway at the time, or possibly a short-circuit from a construction elevator.

While Notre Dame had an elaborate fire safety plan, the creator of that plan, and his successor, had refused to revisit the decision not to equip the cathedral’s attic with fireproof partitions or an automatic sprinkler because of their singular focus on preserving the historical integrity of the “forest”, as the attic was called, in reference to the hundreds of oak trees harvested in the 12th and 13th centuries that made up the structure. The creator of the plan also wrongly assumed that any fire igniting in the attic would burn slowly through the thick, dense timbers, allowing time for a fire to be confirmed and extinguished.

Since the fire and its aftermath, however, new details have come to light about lax fire safety practices and unheeded warnings that further heightened an already high level of risk that a fire, were one to break out in the cathedral, would likely have devastating consequences.

In 2016, three years before the fire, and in the wake of the November 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris, researchers from France’s National Center for Scientific Research had been tasked with performing updated risk assessments of cultural sites, including Notre Dame. The evaluation of Notre Dame warned that the cathedral was vulnerable to fire, especially in the attic where a concentration of centuries of dust could have an explosive effect if triggered by a short circuit of the electrical wires of the alarm system or by scaffolding used for renovation work. The researchers called out the roof in particular as susceptible to fire and said it was essential that steps be taken to protect it by installing a sprinkler system.

For reasons unknown, these recommendations went unheeded by the Regional Cultural Affairs Directorate (DRAC), the authority responsible for fire prevention at Notre Dame. While not allowing installation of a sprinkler system, however, the DRAC did allow clergy to install electric bells in the roof and the spire – actions that ran contrary to safety regulations.

All those responsible, no doubt still have their jobs.

 

[SchlongConery]

That is why I like you

View attachment 333341

You also taught me not to leave fan on when you leave the house

Gracias Monsieur Alurres! My delivery may rub some people the wrong way, and some accuse me of being fucking know-it-all, but I sincerely enjoy sharing my knowledge + experience = wisdom with others.

As for Mr Cat. Yeah, the red comic and U-Man stuff is a bit much but he seems to know his stuff with investing. Which I know very little about so I've learned stuff from him too. Am not a timing-based trader type and stick you stocks of companies I know and/or I like them and/or their products. And he seems to spend his $$$ on girls, although never seen him share that wealth in reviews. And I learned about the Yoga Clam YouTube channels...so I see his usefulness here!

I enjoy your thought provoking questions and musings.

 

[Muchadoaboutnothing]

Just around the time it would be declared a historical building? That happened to the junction train station around Keele and Annette a number of years ago, if I recall correctly. I am not sure if they did confirm arson, but it was suspicious. New construction development followed subsequently.

Interesting as i think that was turned into a condo ground ? maybe this is a developer wanting the space ? Or a religious hate crime ?

 

[escortsxxx]

Whwt do you think?

But, yes, of course there will be an investigation. The Ontario Fire Marshal is obligated to investigate under at least two provisions of the FPPA

(1) of the FPPA . Under clause 9. (2) (a) of the FPPA , it is a duty of the Fire Marshal to investigate the cause, origin, and circumstances of any fire or of any explosion or condition that in the opinion of the Fire Marshal might have caused a fire, explosion, loss of life, or damage to property

• Fires or explosions where the loss is significant to the community. The local authority having jurisdiction has the discretion of which method they choose to classify a significant loss. Note that significant loss is classified as being at least either $1M or twice the residential average sale price for that community. The local authority having jurisdiction has the discretion of which method they choose to classify a significant loss.
  
  Examples of: “significant to the community” may include, but are not limited to, fires at religious institutions or fires that appear to have been intentionally set and targeted towards a certain type of establishment.

That location, and tis protected status. Foulplay comes to mind. The condos must rise.

 

[SchlongConery]

Interesting as i think that was turned into a condo ground ? maybe this is a developer wanting the space ? Or a religious hate crime ?

Sorry to ask, but did you read anything about this other than a headline before leaping to conspiracy theories?

 

[SchlongConery]

That location, and tis protected status. Foulplay comes to mind. The condos must rise.

You read absolutely nothing of the story, the comments that followed and have no idea of the neighbourhod, how zoning and how NATIONAL historic sites and City Heritge designations work. Nor that developers have a GLUT of shovel ready-to-go sites all over Toronto and the GTA that they are paying a fortune to hold with no foreseeable market rebound on the horizon and banks not lending a nickel on anything to do with long term condo development sites. Not to mention there are tons of main throroughfare streets Eglinton/St Clair etc with easliy assembleable retail/residential already partiallly zoned retail-residential stores that can be knocked down and desireablecondos built there.

You IGNORE or didn't even read anything above, least of all the original story, know nothing about zoning, development or that neighbourhood.

And yet you think mystery developer or the church congregation is going to commit ARSON to burn down a fucking church?

Lemme guess... the election was stolen by Soros, COVID was a hoax, she told you that yours was the biggest dick she has seen (and she sees a lot) and you really made her come?

 

[IM469]

That location, and tis protected status. Foulplay comes to mind. The condos must rise.

'Rector of St. Anne’s says Toronto church will ‘work towards rebuilding’ : https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...-toronto-church-will-work-towards-rebuilding/


Curses, foiled again !

 

[Zoot Allures]

he seems to know his stuff with investing. Which I know very little about so I've learned stuff from him too.

This is a bold statement but I know all you need to know about investing in the stock market IMHO


Rule 1
Never invest in something you do not fully understand., which is everything IE crypto currency

Rule 2
Sell high and buy low. Sounds simple but investors follow a herd mentality and do the opposite IE panic in downturn and sell

Rule 3

Invest in long term IE Do not be a day investor, trading stocks every few days

Rule 4
So called experts are after your money IE mutual funds and banks are a bad investment,
after inflation they take all your profit and you invest 100 % of the capital. Might as well buy GICs and avoid the downturns than give $ to the banks

Rule 5
Listen to the real experts who only want to give you their years of experience out of kindness




Quite simply, listen to Warren Buffet , Jack Boogle , Charlie Munger, Ben Felix on index funds

And that is all you need to know.

Easy peasy lemon squeesy

 

[GPIDEAL]

I was going to ask how in the hell could the whole church burn down, but electrical fire combined with dry timbers makes sense. It's truly incredible.