Pickering Angels

The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

Valcazar

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Its not stopping the war, its a 40 day pause to return the hostages then a return to the genocide.
On top of that it doesn't even have clauses about allowing enough food in to deal with the famine.

How much of the offer of a ceasefire is really due to pressure from Israeli protesters over returning the hostages?

I have no idea how much the offer is due to internal pressure from Israeli protesters.
There are multiple groups with multiple agendas.

Many people just want a ceasefire, with the hope that a ceasefire means people don't die during that time and makes it harder to restart the killing.
Other people think a ceasefire is just a PR exercise and the killing will continue immediately afterwards so therefore what's the point in having even a temporary ceasefire - there is some other goal that must be achieved, whether it is a legal agreement on humanitarian aid or the creation of an entirely new political system.

Some think the hostages returning means the end of the campaign.
Others think the hostages are the only leverage that can eventually be used to stop the campaign in a settlement acceptable to both sides.
Others still think neither side actually cares about the hostages.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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I have no idea how much the offer is due to internal pressure from Israeli protesters.
There are multiple groups with multiple agendas.

Many people just want a ceasefire, with the hope that a ceasefire means people don't die during that time and makes it harder to restart the killing.
Other people think a ceasefire is just a PR exercise and the killing will continue immediately afterwards so therefore what's the point in having even a temporary ceasefire - there is some other goal that must be achieved, whether it is a legal agreement on humanitarian aid or the creation of an entirely new political system.

Some think the hostages returning means the end of the campaign.
Others think the hostages are the only leverage that can eventually be used to stop the campaign in a settlement acceptable to both sides.
Others still think neither side actually cares about the hostages.
“Israel will under no circumstances agree to ending the war as part of a deal to free our hostages.”

Hopefully it just stops entirely with no more killing.

Israel has a ‘deliberate plan to kill children and women’: UN official

Figures from the UN agency for Palestinian refugees show 37 children in Gaza lose their mother every day. It’s being described as a “war on women”.
“In no war in recent history have we seen this appalling, deliberate targeted attack on women and children as we’ve seen in the war on Gaza,” said Reem al-Salem, the UN special rapporteur on women and girls.
She said Israel has been targeting Palestinian women for decades, but the current war shows zero consideration for their safety. “They are experiencing a full-blown genocide, they are being exterminated. There are few places in the world where we’ve seen something like this.”
Al-Salem noted nearly 15,000 children and 10,000 women have been killed in seven months of Israeli attacks. “If this is not a deliberate plan to kill children and women – the foundations of Palestinian life and society – then I don’t know what is really.”
 

Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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One of the problems is there are very clearly multiple groups at the protests.
I know people who are quite pro-Palestine who won't go near these protests as long as groups like SPJ are leaders.

There is also the simple fact that the energy driving these protests for the students is only tangentially about this conflict.
Lots of the student protests are mixed in with local issues on those student campuses. (This always happens.)

Lots of the protesters at the places getting big media coverage aren't going to be students anymore either, because it is a thing getting large media coverage and so they are there for those reasons.

These things get complicated.
I was just bicycling by UofT and saw a young woman wearing a keffiyeh and I still feel bad that I didn’t yell “heil hitler”
 

Frankfooter

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So by that logic, giving up the hostages would be a no brainer, since it has no effect on the situation.
Sure it does, there are massive anti Netanyahu protests over the hostages.
And if they give them up Israel can bomb away without killing the rest of them, I think they've killed about 70 of the hostages so far.



How do you think things are going to magically "stop entirely", exactly?
How long do you think the genocide can continue?
Do you think Netanyahu will dare to do a Srebrenica on Rafah?
Do you think Biden will let the genocide run right through the election?

‘Negotiate now, resign later’: Israeli protesters demand action from PM

Several thousand people demonstrated in Tel Aviv in favour of a negotiated release of Israeli captives held in Gaza.
There was also loud criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and calls for new elections. Protesters held banners and signs saying, “Negotiate now, resign later.”
The father of one of Israeli captive said the far-right government’s own survival seemed more important than the hostages. He called on the government to agree to a ceasefire in exchange for their return.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Sure it does, there are massive anti Netanyahu protests over the hostages.
So keeping them prisoner is good PR, it keeps pressure on Netanyahu, even though he has already committed to continuing the war regardless of what happens to the hostages?
It's just "keeping them kidnapped increases political pressure on the margins"?

And if they give them up Israel can bomb away without killing the rest of them, I think they've killed about 70 of the hostages so far.
So your hope is that Israel kills the hostages?
Interesting.

How long do you think the genocide can continue?
A very long time, actually.
You yourself have said that any ceasefire is actually only a pause in Israel continuing the genocide later - so it can go on for years quite easily.

Do you think Netanyahu will dare to do a Srebrenica on Rafah?
I would love to think not, but he is a sick fuck.
If he thinks he can get away with it, I wouldn't put it past him to try.

Do you think Biden will let the genocide run right through the election?
How do you expect him to stop it?
Is the plan for the US to invade Israel?
 

canada-man

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Toronto, Ontario
canadianmale.wordpress.com
Exposing the Soviet Lie of Israeli Apartheid


The lie of “Israel apartheid” was dreamt up in Moscow during the Cold War and driven home by a relentless Soviet propaganda campaign until it took hold in the United Nations and across the Middle East and the West. This included the repeated comparison of Israel with South Africa in Soviet media and in books such as Zionism and Apartheid, an official state publication of Ukraine, then part of the Soviet Union.

When Israel was re-established in 1948, following UN General Assembly Resolution 181, the new state initially pursued a policy of non-alignment. Surrounded by enemies, it needed economic support and arms from either or both the USA and USSR or their allies. Given the socialist political influences in Israel, Soviet leadership expected the country would turn toward communism and align with the USSR, thus strengthening Soviet power in the Middle East and its wider competition with the West. One of Stalin’s main reasons for quickly recognizing Israel in 1948 was the intention to use it to undermine British dominion in the Middle East.

Israel Aligns with the West

Even with significant Soviet covert and overt efforts to lure Israel into its fold, this may have been a vain hope from the beginning. In any case, the pressures of the Cold War in the 1950s, as well as domestic political considerations and concerns over antisemitism inside the Soviet Union, led Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion to align his country with the West, beginning with support for US-led UN intervention in Korea, against the Soviet will.

Israel’s participation with the United Kingdom and France in the 1956 Suez campaign further alienated the Soviet government, which wrote a letter to Jerusalem (as well as to Paris and London) threatening rocket attacks and promising direct military support to the Egyptian army.

The breakdown in Israel-Soviet relations was later compounded by Israel’s defensive victories against the Arabs in 1967 and again in 1973. Over this period, hope of Israel becoming a Soviet client had steadily evaporated. Arab armies sponsored, trained, and equipped by the USSR had been humiliated by American-armed Israelis, and so had Moscow. Thus, the Soviets progressively developed a policy of undermining Israel. Their primary objective was to use the country as a weapon in their Cold War struggle against the United States and the West.

The Kremlin understood that conventional attacks against Israel could not succeed, so instead focused on using Arabs as terrorist proxies, directing, training, funding, and arming groups like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), PFLP-General Command (PFLP-GC), Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), and Fatah to carry out attacks against Israeli and Jewish targets, including wave after wave of aircraft hijacking.

Ion Pacepa

General Ion Pacepa, chief of Romania’s foreign intelligence service, played a significant role in Soviet bloc operations directed against Israel and the US. In 1978, he became the highest-ranking intelligence officer ever to defect from the Soviet sphere and, among many secret revelations, provided details of KGB operations against Israel. Pacepa says the chairman of the KGB, Yuri Andropov (later Leonid Brezhnev’s successor as General Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party), told him:

We needed to instill a Nazi-style hatred for the Jews throughout the Islamic world, and to turn this weapon of the emotions into a terrorist bloodbath against Israel and its main supporter, the United States.”

And,

Islam was obsessed with preventing the infidels’ occupation of its territory, and it would be highly receptive to our characterization of the US Congress as a rapacious Zionist body aiming to turn the world into a Jewish fiefdom.

In other words, he knew that the Arabs would be easy tools in the anti-Israel propaganda war and were already playing their part. Their work only needed to be focused, intensified, and funded.

To achieve its objectives, the Kremlin devised Operation SIG, a disinformation campaign intended “to turn the whole Islamic world against Israel and the US.” Pacepa reported that by 1978, under Operation SIG, the KGB had sent some 4,000 Soviet bloc “agents of influence” into Islamic countries to help achieve this. They also printed and circulated vast amounts of anti-Israel and anti-Jewish propaganda, including the fabricated, antisemitic text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, translated into Arabic.

Changing the Game

As well as mobilizing the Arabs to the Soviet cause, Andropov and his KGB colleagues needed to appeal to the democratic world. To do so, the Kremlin decided to turn the conflict from one that sought simply to destroy Israel into a struggle for human rights and national liberation from an illegitimate American-sponsored imperialist occupier. They set about transforming the narrative of the conflict from religious jihad — in which Islamic doctrine demands that any land that has ever been under Muslim control must be regained for Islam — to secular nationalism and political self-determination, something far more palatable to Western democracies. This would provide cover for a vicious terrorist war, even garnering widespread support for it.

To achieve their goal, the Soviets had to create a Palestinian national identity that did not hitherto exist and a narrative that Jews had no rights to the land and were naked aggressors. According to Pacepa, the KGB created the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in the early 1960s, as they had also orchestrated so-called national liberation armies in several other parts of the world. He says the 1964 Palestinian National Charter was drafted in Moscow. This document was fundamental to the invention and establishment of an artificial Palestinian nationhood.

The PLO Is Created

The initial charter did not claim the West Bank or the Gaza Strip for “Palestine.” In fact, it explicitly repudiated any rights to these lands, falsely recognizing them respectively as Jordanian and Egyptian sovereign territories. Instead, the PLO claim was to the rest of Israel. This was amended after the 1967 war, when Israel ejected the illegal Jordanian and Egyptian occupiers, and the West Bank and Gaza for the first time were re-branded as Palestinian territory.

The first mention of a “Palestinian people” to mean Arabs in Palestine appeared in the 1964 charter. Previously, and particularly during the League of Nations/United Nations Mandate for Palestine 1919-1948, “Palestinians” had been commonly used to describe Jews living in the territory.

Zuheir Mohsen, a senior PLO leader, admitted in 1977:

The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity… Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons.

This reality has been publicly supported, sometimes inadvertently, in statements by several other Palestinian leaders. Quoted by Alan Hart in his 1984 book, Arafat: A Political Biography, PLO leader Yasser Arafat himself said: “The Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasir Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel.”

Moscow first took its campaign to brand Israeli Jews as the oppressors of their invented “Palestinian people” to the UN in 1965. Its attempts to categorize Zionism as racism failed then, but succeed almost a decade later in the infamous UN General Assembly Resolution 3379. Its determination that “Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination” was revoked under US pressure in 1991 but by then had gained great traction and is frequently cited today by anti-Israel campaigners.

The Mitrokhin documents [notes of KGB archivist and later defector Vasili Mitrokhin] show that both Yasser Arafat, and his successor as PLO chief, Mahmoud Abbas, now president of the Palestinian Authority, were KGB agents. Both were instrumental in the KGB’s disinformation operations as well as its terrorist campaigns.

Moscow, through Egypt, had installed Arafat as leader of the PLO in 1969 and its support kept him there in the face of internal dissent following the PLO’s expulsion from Jordan in 1970. According to Pacepa:

In 1969 the KGB asked Arafat to declare war on American ‘imperial-Zionism’… It appealed to him so much, Arafat later claimed to have invented the imperial-Zionist battle cry. But in fact, ‘imperial-Zionism’ was a Moscow invention, a modern adaptation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and long a favorite tool of Russian intelligence to foment ethnic hatred. The KGB always regarded antisemitism plus anti-imperialism as a rich source of anti-Americanism…

Arafat and Abbas

Moscow had assigned to Romania the task of supporting the PLO, and Pacepa was Arafat’s handler during his KGB career. He provided Arafat with $200,000 of laundered cash every month throughout the 1970s. Pacepa also facilitated Arafat’s relationship with Romanian President Nicolae Ceaușescu, a master propagandist who had been given the job of schooling him in hoodwinking the West. For his dealings with Washington, Ceaușescu told Arafat in 1978: “You simply have to keep on pretending that you’ll break with terrorism and that you’ll recognize Israel — over, and over, and over.”

Ceaușescu’s advice was reinforced by North Vietnamese communist General Vo Nguyen Giap, whom Arafat met several times: “Stop talking about annihilating Israel and instead turn your terror war into a struggle for human rights. Then you will have the American people eating out of your hand.” (David Meir-Levi, History Upside Down: The Roots of Palestinian Fascism and the Myth of Israeli Aggression)

An internal KGB document among the Mitrokhin archives reported: “Krotov [Mahmoud Abbas’s cover-name] is an agent of the KGB.” The KGB definition of agents is those who “consistently, systematically and covertly carry out intelligence assignments, while maintaining secret contact with an official in the agency.”

Among other tasks, Abbas was used by the KGB to spread propaganda accusing “Western Imperialism and Zionism” of cooperating with the Nazis. He attended a Moscow university controlled by the KGB in the early 1980s.There, under the supervision of his professor who later became a senior communist politician, Abbas wrote a doctoral dissertation denying the Holocaust and accusing Zionists of assisting Hitler.

Abbas is now entering the 18th year of his four-year elected term of office. Like his predecessor Arafat, his consistent rejection of every offer of peace with Israel, while concurrently talking the talk about peace and sponsoring terrorism, shows the residual influence of his Soviet masters.

Israel’s Image

The KGB disinformation campaign transformed the image of Israel from regional underdog, surrounded by powerful enemies, into widely hated colonialist oppressor and occupier of the downtrodden Palestinian people, a narrative that remains as strong as ever today.

Meanwhile the Palestinian movement created by Moscow, in the words of American historian David Meir-Levi, is “the only national movement for political self-determination in the entire world, and across all of world history, to have the destruction of a sovereign state and the genocide of a people as its only raison d’etre.” This remains explicit in Hamas’s charter, while somewhat more opaque in the Soviet-influenced utterances of Abbas’s Palestinian Authority, especially those directed towards the West.

Moscow’s campaign was significantly undermined by the 2020 rapprochement between Israel and several Arab states. The lesson here is the importance of American political will against authoritarian propaganda, which led to the game-changing Abraham Accords. Had this project been vigorously pursued after its initial success, it might have eventually led to the collapse of the Soviet-initiated Palestinian project and perhaps a form of peace between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. It might yet achieve that if the U.S. again musters the resolve to carry it through.

Meanwhile the December UN General Assembly vote and the UN Human Rights Council’s determination to brand Israel a racist, apartheid state prove that the Soviet Cold War narrative remains alive and well. Most Western nations also still slavishly follow the Soviet program.

Increasing media-driven erosion of popular support for Israel in the US, and the suppurating divisions it causes, are evidence of the Soviet ghosts’ success against their primary target: America.

Paying the Price

The chief victims, however, have been Palestinian Arabs, whose lives have been worsened; and Jews in the diaspora who have suffered immeasurable antisemitism based on Soviet-initiated propaganda. The former may not have been intended but would have been of no concern to Moscow; the latter was very much part of the plan.

Israelis of course have paid a great price for KGB-inspired terrorism and propaganda but have survived and flourished even under such enormous pressure. North Vietnamese General Giap, who once advised Arafat as we have seen, has an explanation for this, as recounted by Dr. Eran Lerman, former Israeli deputy national security adviser. According to Giap:

The Palestinians are always coming here and saying to me, ‘You expelled the French and the Americans. How do we expel the Jews?’ I tell them that the French went back to France and the Americans to America. But the Jews have nowhere to go. You will not expel them.

Col.
Richard Kemp is a former British Army Commander and head of the international terrorism team in the U.K. Cabinet Office. He now is a writer and speaker on international and military affairs, and a Jack Roth Charitable Foundation Fellow at Gatestone Institute. A version of this article appeared on the Gatestone Institute website.

Exposing the Soviet Lie of Israeli Apartheid – Jewish Policy Center
 

basketcase

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Its not stopping the war, its a 40 day pause...
So I guess all you claims about wanting a ceasefire are bullshit.

Hamas people have been quoted saying that stopping the fighting and massive influxes of aid are a "trap" to have them release some hostages (as the UNSC demanded).
 
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Frankfooter

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So keeping them prisoner is good PR, it keeps pressure on Netanyahu, even though he has already committed to continuing the war regardless of what happens to the hostages?
It's just "keeping them kidnapped increases political pressure on the margins"?
You know those Israeli protests are massive.

So your hope is that Israel kills the hostages?
Interesting.
Clearly not what I said, valcazar.
Israel is less likely bomb the shite out of all areas of Gaza if that means they would kill the rest of the hostages.
Less killing.


A very long time, actually.
You yourself have said that any ceasefire is actually only a pause in Israel continuing the genocide later - so it can go on for years quite easily.
I don't think it can last that long.
North Gaza is in famine and its spreading throughout, according to WFP.
By the summer there are warnings that half a million will die from malnutrition, injuries and lack of medical care.


I would love to think not, but he is a sick fuck.
If he thinks he can get away with it, I wouldn't put it past him to try.
I agree he's a sick fuck but in the past he's also known when to stop before international outrage destroys zionism.
This time its less clear.
The ICC is reportedly freaking him out, Hamas is demanding it to the US as part of a ceasefire deal but Netanyahu also continues to say he's going to do it regardles..

How do you expect him to stop it?
Is the plan for the US to invade Israel?
What a ridiculous line.
Cut all aid to Israel, say you won't stop any UNSC resolutions, support the ICC and withdraw all military aid.
That would end the genocide in a day.
 

Frankfooter

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But you have never once criticized Hamas or those among the campus protesters who want Jews removed from the region.
You've never criticized zombies or unicorns either.
Let me know when you have some things that really happened and we can discuss them.

 

Frankfooter

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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Clearly not what I said, valcazar.
Israel is less likely bomb the shite out of all areas of Gaza if that means they would kill the rest of the hostages.
Less killing.
You do think the hostages are deterrence?
I thought you have said repeatedly that the Israel government has already killed many of them, doesn't care if they are returned, and the PR of them killing the hostages is beneficial to the resistance cause.

I don't think it can last that long.
North Gaza is in famine and its spreading throughout, according to WFP.
By the summer there are warnings that half a million will die from malnutrition, injuries and lack of medical care.
Why would that stop the genocide?
Also, you let food in, take them from the edge, then do another starvation bout next year.
Keeps the international pressure off but does significant progress in your genocidal cause.

Isn't that what you've said is going on and has been since the occupation?

I agree he's a sick fuck but in the past he's also known when to stop before international outrage destroys zionism.
This time its less clear.
The ICC is reportedly freaking him out, Hamas is demanding it to the US as part of a ceasefire deal but Netanyahu also continues to say he's going to do it regardles..
So you think the threat of a Sebrenica is overblown?

What a ridiculous line.
Cut all aid to Israel, say you won't stop any UNSC resolutions, support the ICC and withdraw all military aid.
That would end the genocide in a day.
What a ridiculous line.
You think that would end it in a day?
 

Frankfooter

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You do think the hostages are deterrence?
I thought you have said repeatedly that the Israel government has already killed many of them, doesn't care if they are returned, and the PR of them killing the hostages is beneficial to the resistance cause.
No, I have not repeatedly said those things.
The hostages only have real value for Hamas while living.
Israel has killed about 70 so far, including the three they shot waving white flags.

Why would that stop the genocide?
Also, you let food in, take them from the edge, then do another starvation bout next year.
Keeps the international pressure off but does significant progress in your genocidal cause.
There is no sign that is or would happen, is there?
All they've done is block aid and then declare everything is getting through.


Isn't that what you've said is going on and has been since the occupation?
Not since the occupation, since the genocide.
Israel 'counted calories' in 2012 but the international outrage was too high and they stopped.
Since Oct they've been blocking almost all aid, letting nothing through for months then letting 1/6 the usual number of trucks through and declaring they are allowing everything needed.


So you think the threat of a Sebrenica is overblown?
Hard to say, isn't it?
They've made the plans but will they act?


What a ridiculous line.
You think that would end it in a day?
Yes

How, exactly, is the US supposed to guarantee that?
End Negroponte, cut all aid, sponsor some UNSC resolutions.
Declare AIPAC to be foreign lobbyists.

Do you think Israel can continue this path without US support?
 

Valcazar

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No, I have not repeatedly said those things.
The hostages only have real value for Hamas while living.
Israel has killed about 70 so far, including the three they shot waving white flags.
So you think the hostages are key to exerting leverage against Israel then?
The Israeli government is lying when they say they will continue the war after the hostages are returned?

There is no sign that is or would happen, is there?
All they've done is block aid and then declare everything is getting through.
You've said that this is a multi-year project.
Do you now think the only thing Israel is doing is the current military action?

Not since the occupation, since the genocide.
Israel 'counted calories' in 2012 but the international outrage was too high and they stopped.
Since Oct they've been blocking almost all aid, letting nothing through for months then letting 1/6 the usual number of trucks through and declaring they are allowing everything needed.
Wait.
Now "the genocide" is only since October?

Hard to say, isn't it?
They've made the plans but will they act?
At least on this you are noting that decisions aren't set and there are multiple factors.

I see.

End Negroponte, cut all aid, sponsor some UNSC resolutions.
Declare AIPAC to be foreign lobbyists.

Do you think Israel can continue this path without US support?
How does any of that guarantee Israel doesn't attack Rafah?
 

Frankfooter

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So you think the hostages are key to exerting leverage against Israel then?
The Israeli government is lying when they say they will continue the war after the hostages are returned?
The Israeli government lies about just about everything in this war, I don't know why this would be different.
I think Biden is the key to leveraging pressure against Netanyahu.
Internal Israeli protests help.



You've said that this is a multi-year project.
Do you now think the only thing Israel is doing is the current military action?
What are you saying I said was a multi year project?
Where do you think I said this was the only thing they are doing?

Wait.
Now "the genocide" is only since October?
When did I say otherwise?


How does any of that guarantee Israel doesn't attack Rafah?
Nothing guarantees a probability of zero anywhere, valcazar, certainly less so in politics.
But the biggest pressure on Netanyahu still comes from the US.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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The Israeli government lies about just about everything in this war, I don't know why this would be different.
I think Biden is the key to leveraging pressure against Netanyahu.
Internal Israeli protests help.
If everything they say is lies, then there can be no negotiation.

What are you saying I said was a multi year project?
Where do you think I said this was the only thing they are doing?


When did I say otherwise?
I was of the distinct impression that you felt the entire colonial project was a long-term genocide.
If that isn't what you are saying, my apologies.


Nothing guarantees a probability of zero anywhere, valcazar, certainly less so in politics.
But the biggest pressure on Netanyahu still comes from the US.
But that's not the ask.
The ask is that the US guarantees no attack.

Withdrawing support doesn't do that in any way.
Are you saying instead the US should maintain all that support, but withdraw it if Israel attacks?
 

Frankfooter

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If everything they say is lies, then there can be no negotiation.
Or you demand a guarantee from Biden.

I was of the distinct impression that you felt the entire colonial project was a long-term genocide.
If that isn't what you are saying, my apologies.
No, I've never thought that.
Previously I've just thought it a long term colonial settler project involved in very slow ethnic cleansing and apartheid rule.
This was a major change.


But that's not the ask.
The ask is that the US guarantees no attack.
I think you are being picayune here, playing semantics.
Nobody can ever guarantee to control the acts of any other person, that is not the ask.
The ask is to promise to pressure Netanyahu to not attack Rafah.

Withdrawing support doesn't do that in any way.
Are you saying instead the US should maintain all that support, but withdraw it if Israel attacks?
No, I still think the US should use that pressure to force a ceasefire today.
But given that Genocide Joe thinks he's on some holy path, getting him to promise to use those powers to at least limit one element of the genocide is something.

By the way, how do you think Genocide Joe justifies his position when as a catholic the pope has repeatedly called for a ceasefire?
 
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