The protests are bigger already, aren't they?
Hopefully they don't get violent at all.
Trump crushes Biden in latest ABC News poll
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Hopefully they don't get violent at all.
You might want to work on your communications skills.
And yes, I look forward to seeing them exposed as hypocrites again.
I don't know.
There are any number of reasons.
The simplest would be that Israel didn't think it was ready to handle an escalation right now.
But yes, I was referring to the Times of Israel story since it sounds like you and Butler agree that is what happened and therefore the ground attack on Rafah must be imminent with full support of the US having been given.
What?
These protest are still nowhere near as big as the Vietnam anti-war protests at their height.
Those had also gone on for years by 68.
The students in the anti-Vietnam protests were more rowdy as well, even somewhat violent.
(The real serious violence was, as now, due to the cops, though.)
Not much point in working on communicating anything that doesn't fit into your narrative, Butler.
I've already learned that.
That you haven't noticed how much the political press in the US wants a brokered convention or convention riots and has for the last 20 years just shows how little attention you pay to the press.
From the hypocrites line, I assume your expectation is there will be protests and the Dems will welcome and encourage violent police action to break it up?
(I believe you even said the Illinois national guard will be involved?)
I think the same will happen in Milwaukee. The GOP are already whining about security to the Secret Service.
But yes, the elite Dems won't allow the plebs and serfs to spoil their coronation
People complain about the security perimeters at both conventions every time.
Unless the cops decide to start violence, I don't expect violence.
Netanyahu wouldn't have bombed an Iranian embassy by accident or without planning for an escalation. The bigger question is why he didn't escalate it if he attacked the embassy with that in mind. The simpler explanation is that outside pressure held him back or the lack of US support for an Iranian war they can't do alone stopped him.
At this point I don't think it likely that there will be an attack on Rafah. Netanyahu has had enough time to prep if he wants to do it. I think he's more interested in being on the cusp of attacking than actually attacking. Selling his government that they have to stand with him because it will happen while also realizing there is nothing to gain from a military advantage and much to lose of what's left of Israel's standing if they attack.
Right.
He couldn't handle an escalation at this time because the support he hoped for wasn't there.
That is completely different from "The US gave him a green light on Rafah if he doesn't escalate".
You do see that, don't you?
Interesting.
So you think that Bibi is rejecting Joe Biden's green light to ground invade Rafah?
Bibi is less "pro-genocide" than Joe Biden now?
Or have you completely given up on the "Joe Biden gave Bibi the green light" theory?
This is all starting to sound dangerously close to the idea that Israel is actually making its own choices about what Israel can do, and isn't a puppet of "Genocide Joe", who is single-handedly responsible for the death of all the Palestinians, if I recall your earlier rhetoric.
No, its not completely different. Its all part of the same message. The support he hoped for was from Biden, instead of that support he was offered some consolation prize in being supported in allowing an attack on Rafah, which Biden had been publicly opposing, if that's worth anything.
Do you also use straw man claims with students? I understand that's part of maintaining power for some profs, but its not an honest way to debate or grade. Its making use of what you assume is the power of the position to mischaracterize others statement and maintain the position of expert. Your ability to analyze is strong, you don't need to resort to logical fallacies.
Another straw man argument here, valcazar.
Netanyahu (and I won't use his pet name to make him sound sympathetic as you do) has always been the one in the drivers seat, the one who chose to ignore warnings and chose to use the genocide as a way to save a political career in major trouble. Biden has a been a zionist for decades and has actively chosen to aid and abet the genocide, including signing off $26 billion in more weapons on the day the UN issued a report saying Israel is committing genocide.
Netanyahu has run multiple attacks on Gaza over the years and previous to the genocide had tried to do as much damage as possible without setting off mass foreign outrage. This is the first time he's pushed beyond that but this is also the first time he's been under trial for corruption and barely holding on to power. But this is also the first time Israel has been hit with UNSC resolutions, ICJ charges and rumoured ICC charges on him personally.
There is no military goal to attacking Rafah, there is nothing he can gain for Israel and the civilian casualties will be massive.
Haaretz seems to think Netanyahu is using the threat of Rafah as a bargaining chip with Egypt, I'm more inclined to think Netanyahu is using the threat to maintain power while he tries to think of another endgame other than a long visit to the Hague next time he leaves the country.
Israel working to block feared ICC arrest warrants against PM, others over Gaza war
Government source says The Hague focusing on allegations that Israel 'deliberately starved' Gazans; IDF gives rare press briefing over Shabbat to highlight humanitarian efforts
www.timesofisrael.com
As straw man arguments go, this one is particularly weak. Definitely not your best work.
Netanyahu is committing genocide and Genocide Joe sits in the one chair that could stop it and is instead aiding and abetting the genocide, sending in more weapons and still blocking international actions.
I'm sure that's what they said of the Vietnam protests, the BLM protests and the climate change protests as well.
Trump now leading in PA by a small margin
www.realclearpolling.com
2024 Pennsylvania: Trump vs. Biden | RealClearPolling
2024 Pennsylvania: Trump vs. Biden | RealClearPolling
And yet here we are.
Protests for Palestine have been bigger than all of those now.
The US is stuck trying to stop the UN, ICC and ICJ from acting on behalf of the rest of the planet.
Protesting is always tricky.
Remember that the anti-war protests against Vietnam were unpopular as well.
Same with the civil rights protests.
I see.
You are just determined to cling to the narrative you prefer regardless of any evidence one way or the other.
Oh well.
What straw man claims have I been using here?
You invented a deal that you had no evidence for and are now doubling down on that deal secretly being true despite the lack of evidence.
I'm not the one asserting things with no evidence, Frank.
You should also be very wary of thinking logical rigour is the be all and end all of an argument and logical fallacies are automatically bad.
That will lead you to all kinds of bad results in the real world.
Bibi is a fucking monster, I agree.
But you are now saying that he had the greenlight from Joe but isn't using it.
Given you consider Biden responsible for the genocide, the fact Netanyahau isn't prosecuting something Biden greenlit means he is more reasonable, right?
I know you can't suddenly be coming around to the idea that individual actors and nations and regimes have multiple pressures they contend with and multiple goals they want to achieve and the fact these things might interact and conflict in different ways means something to how things play out.
That would be crazy awesome for you suddenly to believe.
What?Netanyahu has run multiple attacks on Gaza over the years and previous to the genocide had tried to do as much damage as possible without setting off mass foreign outrage. This is the first time he's pushed beyond that but this is also the first time he's been under trial for corruption and barely holding on to power. But this is also the first time Israel has been hit with UNSC resolutions, ICJ charges and rumoured ICC charges on him personally.
There is no military goal to attacking Rafah, there is nothing he can gain for Israel and the civilian casualties will be massive.
Haaretz seems to think Netanyahu is using the threat of Rafah as a bargaining chip with Egypt, I'm more inclined to think Netanyahu is using the threat to maintain power while he tries to think of another endgame other than a long visit to the Hague next time he leaves the country.
Israel working to block feared ICC arrest warrants against PM, others over Gaza war
Government source says The Hague focusing on allegations that Israel 'deliberately starved' Gazans; IDF gives rare press briefing over Shabbat to highlight humanitarian efforts
He has his own agenda?
That's amazing!
When did you figure this out?
Holy shit, you think "Israel has agency" is a strawman?
After what you just wrote?
Do you even understand what a strawman argument is?
Wow.
You really do think "Israel has agency" is a complete fabrication even when arguing about all the reasons Israel and the current government have their own agenda for doing what they are doing.
Holy fuck.
That's amazing.
You think these have been bigger than the Vietnam war protests and the BLM protests?
Are you claiming you've presented evidence of anything in these discussions?
That's a straw man claim right there.
When I discussed the deal I also included links showing where the story came from and now you are claiming I 'invented' the story. That's a straw man claim.
On the contrary, I keep posting links that back up all my claims.
You keep arguing that I'm wrong based on your opinion without any evidence to back up your opinions.
I've posted polls, reports, human rights reports and statements from politicians.
What evidence have you supplied?
That's still a straw man claim where you intentionally mischaracterize my statements to try to win high moral ground. You can do better.
How many times do I have to state that Netanyahu is responsible for the genocide and Biden is responsible for enabling it and actively aiding it give the US has the only real power to stop Israel.
Why would you try to argue that someone in the middle of committing genocide is being reasonable?
Considering that I've been the one detailing more of the multiple pressures and you've been the one trying to find gotcha moments, on what basis would you even try to make that claim? In reply after I specifically discussed the pressures on both leaders? And after repeated posts by you repeatedly giving only your opinion that I'm wrong? During this thread you've repeatedly used straw man claims to try to assert that my only goal is to 'punish' Biden, which is incredibly reductive thinking. Nothing you've posted has shown any sophistication or even real awareness, only your view that likely due to your personal research you think your views that US democracy will end if rump returns to power. But you haven't even been able to make a solid case why you think that will happen this time.
Well, at least you''ve progressed past trying claim that my sole goal is to punish Biden just for aiding and abetting genocide.
Yes, a straw man claim is like stating you said 'Israel has agency' and I said that was a straw man argument.
There is nowhere in my posts where that has been said.
That statement has nothing to do with what I posted, valcazar.
You really should try to defend that claim with linked sources.
Go ahead and try.
Its like you're trying to argue that a murderer doesn't have the agency to commit murder if he could have been stopped by better policing.
Yes, if you combine them with all the other Palestine protests that have been ongoing for the last 6 months. Yemen has had weekly protests of 1-2 million every week for six months alone. I'd say they rivalled BLM in the first month or so. People are making the Vietnam comparison based only on the Palestine student protest vs the Vietnam student protest.
This list doesn't even include Vietnam in the top 10.
10 biggest protests in history
Here are ten of history's biggest protests that saw demonstrators in their millions trying to change the world.
www.livescience.com
It depends a lot on how you view the toss ups, but this isn't an unreasonable map.
