Pro Hamas in the west - and their adventures

[Frankfooter]

Frank is an elitist clown who keeps demanding that Palestinians be forced into becoming Israeli even though they overwhelmingly hate the idea and the Palestinians with the guns refuse the concept.

He sees himself as the white saviour Palestinians need to tell them what to do because he thinks they are incapable of making their own decisions.

Maybe you're right.
Maybe zionists should be forced into becoming Palestinians instead.

Its clear that zionists in Israel should not be allowed to continue to rule the land.
Maybe its time for democracy finally and allowing all under their rule to vote.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770983036982607999

 

[basketcase]

The Israeli military court system is an apartheid venture with a 99.9% rate of finding guilt.
...

Sometimes the evidence is clear, especially when they brag about what they do.

BTW. Remember when the UN, ICJ, and ICC all demanded the immediate and unconditional release of Hamas hostages and said it runs completely contrary to international law to use them as bargaining chips?

 

[basketcase]

Maybe you're right.
Maybe zionists should be forced into becoming Palestinians instead.
...

Which Palestinians hate too. Sad that you think of yourself as backing human rights while demanding other be forced to follow your plans. You complain about Trump but you show the exact same authoritarian dictatorial views or world events.


p.s. Why do you keep quoting a woman who openly stated that Jews have subjugated America?

 

[Frankfooter]

????

IfNotNow is a Jewish organization that you just accused of pushing antisemitic tropes.
Are you a Jew hater?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770517864094613967

 

[Frankfooter]

Sometimes the evidence is clear, especially when they brag about what they do.

BTW. Remember when the UN, ICJ, and ICC all demanded the immediate and unconditional release of Hamas hostages and said it runs completely contrary to international law to use them as bargaining chips?

They also demand the return of Palestinian prisoners, including all the children Israel has put in military prison.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/military_courts

 

[Frankfooter]

Which Palestinians hate too. Sad that you think of yourself as backing human rights while demanding other be forced to follow your plans. You complain about Trump but you show the exact same authoritarian dictatorial views or world events.

The board is so lucky to have a zionist here to speak of what the Palestinian people want and need.
Clearly you think they are not able to think for themselves and only a self declared supremacist knows best for them.
Only a colonial supremacist would declare himself their personal spokesman here.

I back ending apartheid and applying equal rights. That's what I see as the best non-violent path forward.
But you are right, Palestinians hate zionists the way Jews hate nazis, for the same reasons.

How do you think you get past trying to live with a people you tried to kill through genocide?

 

[Valcazar]

Hamas was already ordered. And Hamas is not a member of the UN.

The ICJ has ruled that Hamas committed war crimes. There is no such ruling against Israel.

Please point to the ruling by the ICJ that Hamas committed war crimes.

And Hamas was given an order, plain and simple. Not interim, or "roughly equivalent to" or temporary or restraining. They were given an order to return the hostages immediately. No qualifications or adjectives. Taking civilian hostages is a war crime.

Please point to the legal order by the ICJ to return hostages immediately.

 

[Valcazar]

You're against defending Ukraine now too?

He's also against health care for veterans, apparently.

 

[Valcazar]

Feel free to find the posts and prove it, valcazar.
I'd apologize and accept you were right if you can do it.
But I know you copy and pasted an image of the discussion of the charges and did not accept that the provisional measures were the the conclusions.

What are you talking about?
The provisional measures are the demand the court makes.

I believe you quoted from something in section IV, and not the conclusions in section VI of the ruling.

I pointed out you were misinterpreting the text.

IIRC, you were arguing that the ICJ ruling gave demands to Hamas and not to Israel

Why the fuck would I be arguing that the ruling gave demands to Hamas?
They have no authority over Hamas and even if they did, Hamas wasn't party to the lawsuit.
Hell, in this thread or another one I am asking shack to actually point to where the ICJ demanded Hamas release the hostages (as in gave a legal order) because they didn't and he's wrong when he says they did.

At worst it will happen as it did for South Africa, through boycotts and sanctions, as Canada has started with weapons. At best the US won't veto the next UNSC call for a ceasefire on Monday, Biden will stop Netanyahu from invading Rafah and the ICC and ICJ will follow through with agonizingly slow charges of genocide and war crimes.

None of which you will approve of, mind you.
Because none of that will accomplish what you want instantly, therefore it will actually be pro-genocide in your eyes.
I'll be happy to be wrong about that, but you have already made it very clear that "agonizingly slow" is - in your view - actually supporting Israel.

And this one will be even harder, I expect.
Can you articulate another path towards peace that would be less painful?

Than negotiations, international diplomacy, and so on?
No.
These things are fucking hard , Frank.

 

[Frankfooter]

What are you talking about?
The provisional measures are the demand the court makes.
I pointed out you were misinterpreting the text.
Why the fuck would I be arguing that the ruling gave demands to Hamas?
They have no authority over Hamas and even if they did, Hamas wasn't party to the lawsuit.
Hell, in this thread or another one I am asking shack to actually point to where the ICJ demanded Hamas release the hostages (as in gave a legal order) because they didn't and he's wrong when he says they did.

Go through that thread and check it. I was the one arguing that the provisional measures were the demands while you repeatedly ignored them.
But I'm very happy to see you now backing the same claims I've been making since it came out.
I didn't misinterpret that text.

None of which you will approve of, mind you.
Because none of that will accomplish what you want instantly, therefore it will actually be pro-genocide in your eyes.
I'll be happy to be wrong about that, but you have already made it very clear that "agonizingly slow" is - in your view - actually supporting Israel.

There are two major issues, stopping the present genocide and fixing the systematic issues.
Genocide needs to be stopped now before half the population starves to death.
The systematic issues will take a long time.

Than negotiations, international diplomacy, and so on?
No.
These things are fucking hard , Frank.

Until the day the wall falls down, Mandela is freed and things change.
The changes needed are massive.

 

[Valcazar]

Just stop supplying them with weapons and ammunition, is Israel in danger if they pull back to concentrate on the defense they screwed up on?

How would that stop Israel?
Sure, I think the US still has leverage it hasn't used and Biden is trapped by an older view of Israel's place in the network of US alliances, but it isn't like the US stopping weapons shipments will stop Israel here.
Do you think the Israeli army is entirely funded with US weapons?

Still, the threat that Israel wouldn't be able to survive a multi-front war could maybe pull them back.
Of course, if that mutli-front war actually happens, things aren't any better.

 

[Valcazar]

That's your opinion.

100%
I think claiming whether or not something is a "real" ceasefire is a bad idea outside of literally "they kept shooting, so it wasn't a real ceasefire".

I think its a fair description of a proposal that was an attempt to implement a temporary pause in the fighting designed only to force Hamas to return the hostages. It had similar issues to the latest resolution that Russia and China vetoed on Friday.

That's a "bad" ceasefire or one you think that doesn't have terms worth accepting.
But if you are just going to say "any ceasefire that has terms one side thinks are bad isn't a real ceasefire" then you are just saying that you don't think a ceasefire is real until it as accepted.
Which... fine, but that's the case anyway.

That means all the ceasefires proposed by Hamas are also not real, since Israel didn't accept them.

Would like to do a comparison of the US resolution and the one France will submit on Monday for a vote at the UNSC?

Actually, I would.
Do you have the texts of both?

I'm expecting that a 'real' call for a ceasefire will result in a fourth US veto, but Biden's support is starting to waver a tiny bit so there is a tiny chance they let it pass.

But you just said that a real ceasefire has to be accepted by both sides.
If it has terms Israel doesn't want, then it isn't a real ceasefire according to you.

Fine, you've objected.
Noted.

Good.
We can drop this pointless linguistic side show.

Noted, I brought it up first.
I'll admit I was wrong about that.

Good.

After you admit you were wrong (or prove me wrong) about the ICJ ruling I'm open to discussing that one.

Why would I admit to something that isn't true?

 

[Valcazar]

Go through that thread and check it. I was the one arguing that the provisional measures were the demands while you repeatedly ignored them.

No.
Really.
No.
I always said the provisional demands were the legal portion of the ruling.
I pointed out that you were mistaken in what you thought they said and meant.

 

[Frankfooter]

How would that stop Israel?
Sure, I think the US still has leverage it hasn't used and Biden is trapped by an older view of Israel's place in the network of US alliances, but it isn't like the US stopping weapons shipments will stop Israel here.
Do you think the Israeli army is entirely funded with US weapons?

Still, the threat that Israel wouldn't be able to survive a multi-front war could maybe pull them back.
Of course, if that mutli-front war actually happens, things aren't any better.

Biden could stop the genocide in one day.
Netanyahu is barely hanging on to power and if he loses US support he's done.

1) Let the UNSC ceasefire through without veto
2) Declare the US is legally not allowed to sell or give weapons to Israel (which is true)
3) Declare support for the ICJ and ICC
4) Declare AIPAC foreign lobbyists

Netanyahu can't stop the genocide as he knows as soon as it ends his career is done.
But if you do all those things his government will fall and the genocide will be stopped.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771315864484167979

 

[Frankfooter]

No.
Really.
No.
I always said the provisional demands were the legal portion of the ruling.
I pointed out that you were mistaken in what you thought they said and meant.

No, you didn't.
Go check the threads.

You kept pasting in the paragraph that mentioned Hamas until I posted the full provisional measures.
Then you claimed they didn't hold any effect on Israel and I pointed out that if Israel actually honoured them the only way that could be accomplished was with a ceasefire, specifically mentioning the 'prevent killing Palestinians in Gaza' line.

 

[Frankfooter]

100%
I think claiming whether or not something is a "real" ceasefire is a bad idea outside of literally "they kept shooting, so it wasn't a real ceasefire".
That's a "bad" ceasefire or one you think that doesn't have terms worth accepting.
But if you are just going to say "any ceasefire that has terms one side thinks are bad isn't a real ceasefire" then you are just saying that you don't think a ceasefire is real until it as accepted.
Which... fine, but that's the case anyway.

That means all the ceasefires proposed by Hamas are also not real, since Israel didn't accept them.

Israel and Hamas did agree to a temporary 'truce' where the fighting stopped and Hamas and Israel released hostages.
Previous to that, as far as I know, only Hamas had agreed and implemented voluntary and one sided ceasefires. I don't recall any others that were agreed by both parties.
You could check the Hamas offer, Al Jazeera posted it.

New Hamas Gaza truce proposal outlines exchange of captives for prisoners

With the war in its sixth month, Israel says plan presented to international mediators based on ‘unrealistic demands’.

www.aljazeera.com

Are there clauses in that which you think Hamas included knowing that Israel would or couldn't agree?

Actually, I would.
Do you have the texts of both?

I don't have either, I've read summaries of the US resolution and the French one won't be presented until Monday for the vote.

But you just said that a real ceasefire has to be accepted by both sides.
If it has terms Israel doesn't want, then it isn't a real ceasefire according to you.

You do get fixated on words over content, don't you?
And I said that a 'real' or 'honest' ceasefire proposal is not designed with conditions that you know the other side can't agree to.
The latest US resolution was a good example, it was a political move by Biden to make it look like he's working towards a solution. On monday his bluff will be called and we'll see if vetoes a fourth UNSC ceasefire resolution, while calling for more aid, blocking the UNRWA funding and agreeing to meet Israel with their latest demand for weapons.

Why would I admit to something that isn't true?

You wouldn't, but you should admit you were wrong when it is true.


What’s happening to Israel-Hamas talks in Doha?

Indirect talks between Israel and Hamas in Qatar appear to be struggling amid deep differences over the duration and nature of a ceasefire as well as the release of Israeli captives and Palestinian prisoners, according to officials and media reports.
Here’s what you need to know:

• Hamas is proposing the release of some 100 Israeli captives in phases, in exchange for a permanent end to the war on Gaza, the total withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Palestinian enclave and the return of displaced people to their homes.
• Al Jazeera’s sources say Israel has rejected ending the war and withdrawing its troops from Gaza.
• Our sources also say Israeli negotiators said they would allow only 2,000 displaced Palestinians to return to their homes each day. At that rate, it would take more than two years for all displaced Palestinians to leave Rafah.
• Israel wants all Israeli captives of all categories released immediately. But Hamas has indicated it will only release women and children in a first phase.
• Bassem Naim, a Hamas political bureau chief, told Al Jazeera that Israeli negotiators want to regain the captives without a commitment to ending the war on Gaza. This would mean the resumption of killing and destruction in the Palestinian enclave. He said Hamas has told mediators that the group is “not ready to discuss any further proposals”.

 

[Valcazar]

Biden could stop the genocide in one day.

I know you believe in magical ponies, but seriously dude. Try to at least stay mildly connected to reality.

1) Let the UNSC ceasefire through without veto

Israel (and Hamas) ignore it immediately.
So much for ending genocide in a day.

2) Declare the US is legally not allowed to sell or give weapons to Israel (which is true)

Since you think it is already true then nothing changes, right?
Or fine, the US doesn't allow US companies to sell arms to Israel.
Israel continues its attack with its many, many other weapons.

So much for ending genocide in a day.

3) Declare support for the ICJ and ICC

Israel is already a member of both, the US accomplishes nothing by doing this.
ICJ is already in process of judging Israel. That hasn't stopped Israel from doing what it is doing.
So much for ending genocide in a day.

4) Declare AIPAC foreign lobbyists

Does nothing to stop Israel killing people.
So much for ending genocide in a day.



These are all things that would weaken the relationship between the US and Israel.
Absolutely NONE of them would stop the genocide in a day.
As you yourself say, Netanyahu thinks the war is keeping him in power and out of jail
So maybe the most effective thing the US could do would be to offer Netanyahu asylum and complete protection from international law if he steps down.

Netanyahu can't stop the genocide as he knows as soon as it ends his career is done.
But if you do all those things his government will fall and the genocide will be stopped.

How would those cause his government to fall?

 

[Valcazar]

No, you didn't.
Go check the threads.

You kept pasting in the paragraph that mentioned Hamas until I posted the full provisional measures.
Then you claimed they didn't hold any effect on Israel and I pointed out that if Israel actually honoured them the only way that could be accomplished was with a ceasefire, specifically mentioning the 'prevent killing Palestinians in Gaza' line.

Yes, I remember your delusional interpretation of the decision and your belief that they were ordered to never kill a Palestinian again.
As far as I can tell, you still believe that is what the order said.

 

[Leimonis]

Yes, I remember your delusional interpretation of the decision and your belief that they were ordered to never kill a Palestinian again.
As far as I can tell, you still believe that is what the order said.

Israel should surgically remove Hamas leaders and not harm even one civilian. Israel could easily do it with their space lasers but they choose not to because they just like to kill innocent civilians for shits and giggles or maybe to harvest their organs.

 

[Frankfooter]

I know you believe in magical ponies, but seriously dude. Try to at least stay mildly connected to reality.

Are you that naive?

Israel (and Hamas) ignore it immediately.
So much for ending genocide in a day.

Lets hope we find out on Monday, but likely Biden will kill his reelection by vetoing another resolution at the UNSC.

Since you think it is already true then nothing changes, right?
Or fine, the US doesn't allow US companies to sell arms to Israel.
Israel continues its attack with its many, many other weapons.

So much for ending genocide in a day.

The laws are there but ignored. Apply them and Israel is in immediate trouble.
As Sanders and AOC have called for.

Israel is already a member of both, the US accomplishes nothing by doing this.
ICJ is already in process of judging Israel. That hasn't stopped Israel from doing what it is doing.
So much for ending genocide in a day.

The US has veto power over ICC and ICJ rulings. Declare you will abide and Netanyahu and his entire government become war criminals unable to travel.

Does nothing to stop Israel killing people.
So much for ending genocide in a day.

It removes all threats against US politicians to refuse to support Israel.

These are all things that would weaken the relationship between the US and Israel.
Absolutely NONE of them would stop the genocide in a day.
As you yourself say, Netanyahu thinks the war is keeping him in power and out of jail
So maybe the most effective thing the US could do would be to offer Netanyahu asylum and complete protection from international law if he steps down.

That is the point, end the relationship with Israel over their committing genocide.

How would those cause his government to fall?

Are you unaware of the protests against his government over the last 6 months, now over corruption, judicial changes and his refusal to return the hostages? Are you really unaware of how tenuous his coalition rule is?

The genocide has to end at some point.
The warnings over starvation have been constant and continue to elevate.
The question is whether its stopped with only 50,000 deaths or with a few hundred thousand.

Do you think zionism can continue as a movement if there is mass death by starvation in Gaza?