Ontarian takes OHIP to court for gender-affirming surgery funding

[rhuarc29]

Is gender dysphoria a medical condition? If so, funding should be provided. If not, the patient should treat it as a cosmetic procedure and pay for it themselves.

The issue is that the particular procedure she wants is considered experimental. If you read into it, it's not the typical bottom surgery.

 

[DesRicardo]

A lot of these are side effects that any plastic surgery can have. I had a liposuction in 2008 and I did not get feeling back in certain parts of my abdomen until about 2015.

And how many trans people are actually getting surgery? The majority don't. So even if they deem it is for the public to pay it isn't that much of a concern financially speaking. The only reason why someone would consider this an issue is because it is an LGBTQ issue that they oppose, not that they know anything about how much it actually costs the taxpayer.

Your timeline doesn't add up. But lets say true, being overweight has direct physical effects on your health.

Doesn't matter how many are getting the surgery. It's not covered and no peer reviewed study fully backs this surgery. It's still wildly experimental.

I don't have an issue with LGBT issues. It's you that has an issue with real science.

 

[Mr.Gr33k]

And if a person is suicidal because of gender dismorphia you think they should just die?

What the heck is gender dismorphia??

Sounds lethal

 

[Frankfooter]

We don’t live in a perfect world though.
If Ohip or even private insurance doesn’t cover certain cancer treatments why should this be covered?

Cuz its cheaper than life long therapy or suicide prevention.
Because its not that expensive and it makes people live better lives.
Because there aren't that many requiring it.

 

[DesRicardo]

I am saying that qualified individuals need to first determine whether or not it is a medical procedure done to alleviate a medical condition. You admit that there is no peer reviewed study as of yet in this matter. So what "real science" are you insisting upon here, when you have yourself admitted, that there isn't sufficient research?

Because no matter how you try to twist this, zero proof = zero proof.

It's not about sufficient research, it's about the quality of the research.

 

[DesRicardo]

I am not saying otherwise. I am saying we NEED research, and experts to weight in, in order to further determine, whether a) Gender dysmorphia can be considered a medical condition b) Whether gender affirming surgeries are effective treatments for gender dysmorphia.

If that research determines, that both are true, then yes, OHIP should pay for it, much like it pays for any other surgery. Does not matter what it costs. If it determines one or both to be false, then, no OHIP should not pay for it, and the person should pay for it out of pocket.

Given there is no research, it wouldn't make sense to take the position, that gender dysmorphia is not a medical condition without any evidence to back that up.

LISTENNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!

The research was already DONEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

IT'S 2024. They just don't want to accept it. It's an agenda.

Are you waiting for a deity to fall from the sky and confirm this?

 

[DesRicardo]

Show me the peer reviewed research that proves that a) It is not a medical condition and b) Gender affirming surgeries are not effective treatments for the same.

A) No one is saying this isn't a medical issue, but it's Physiological not Biological.
B) This makes no sense because the onus is one you to prove your surgery is an acceptable medical treatment.

You're trying to shift the burden, but as I said zero proof = zero proof.

 

[Mr.Gr33k]

I am not saying otherwise. I am saying we NEED research, and experts to weight in, in order to further determine, whether a) Gender dysmorphia can be considered a medical condition b) Whether gender affirming surgeries are effective treatments for gender dysmorphia.

First of all, it's not dysmorphia!

It is dysphoria!

It is NOT a reconstructive surgery! It is a plastic surgery at best, mutilation surgery, whatever surgery, just not reconstructive.

You should look up the terms and definitions.

Also, people are not born with a gender dysphoria. They acquire it. Only a few people have a genetic predisposition to have a dysphoria.

 

[DesRicardo]

Okay, so you agree, then that it is infact a medical issue and further research and expert commentary are needed in order to prove that it is infact an acceptable medical treatment. So where is the disagreement?

By the way, the two studies I linked seem to make that point, atleast on first glance.

This disagreement is: 1) If there is no conclusive medical agreement on the practice, it's not a medical practice. It's not a grey area subject. 2) This person is trying to con the government into paying their surgery. They want someone else to cover the bill.

 

[DesRicardo]

That is why medical opinions need to be sought to provide more clarity on the subject. If there is no proof, you need to ask the relevant people if there is any basis to consider this a valid medical treatment. The above quote, from 2 surgeons, I quoted, seems to argue that it is infact a valid medical procedure.

That is for medical professionals and the government to determine. Not for you or I, who are not the authority on the subject to pass judgement.

Tell me how long you think Transgenderism/Gender Disorder/Gender Dysphoria has been studied?

 

[dvous11]

Listen to this:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3m...w&context=spotify:show:4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk

 

[DesRicardo]

I don't know. You tell me. How long has it been studied? And show me a study or a paper, that says gender affirming surgeries are not effective treatments for gender dysphoria.

I provided a few papers and their conclusions that seem to indicate that a) Gender dysphoria is a medical condition and is considered a birth defect b) Gender dysphoria can be treated effectively with gender affirming surgeries c) That these surgeries are reconstructive in nature, and not just an aesthetic cosmetic procedure d) That there is <1% of trans persons who transition who actually regret it.

Basically all that atleast seems to indicate that the patient in question that the OP posted about, could possibly have a case to make.

If you don't know how long it's been in study, how can you say more medical opinion is needed?

 

[dvous11]

Because per your own admission, there is not enough evidence. The only thing you need to do is to provide the peer reviewed studies that make the point that gender affirming surgeries are not an appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria. Also note that the 3 links I presented, seem to actually state that the surgery is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, and that gender dysphoria is a medical condition.

Dr. Phil?

Ya man give the first bit a listen.
Lefties are supposed to be open minded

 

[DesRicardo]

Because per your own admission, there is not enough evidence. The only thing you need to do is to provide the peer reviewed studies that make the point that gender affirming surgeries are not an appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria. Also note that the 3 links I presented, seem to actually state that the surgery is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, and that gender dysphoria is a medical condition.

A lack of evidence does not mean a lack of research. A lack of evidence can also mean there is no conclusive solution.

Why would anyone have to prove your natural body is right or wrong? Your biological state is your biological state.

Is it a medical condition? I thought you guys said it was completely normal. Make up your mind?

 

[DesRicardo]

So if you know of the research, then post the link to it here where it says a) Gender dysphoria is not a medical condition and b) Gender affirming surgeries are not acceptable treatments. I already posted 3 links that say the opposite.

Gender dysphoria is about the distress a person feels because of a mismatch between their gender identity and biological sex. This isnt about proving anything. This is about wanting to conform to the gender one identifies with regardless of which sex they were assigned at birth.

Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. Gender identity is not. Gender dysphoria is the distress a person feels because of a mismatch between their gender identity and biological sex. Even you called gender dysphoria a medical condition in a previous post, but seem to be arguing the opposite, contradicting yourself.

Would you have sex with a transgender woman?

 

[DesRicardo]

If I was attracted to them, sure. How is that relevant?

So have you already?

 

[DesRicardo]

No, but what is the relevance to what you were saying?

I don't believe you.

 

[Not getting younger]

Show me the peer reviewed research that proves that a) It is not a medical condition and b) Gender affirming surgeries are not effective treatments for the same.

Oh the other hand, I read 2 papers that I will link below. I will read them when I have time, but on first glance, they seem to indicate, atleast, support for the argument that gender affirming surgeries do have positive outcomes.

Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes - PMC

Are gender-affirming surgeries associated with better mental health outcomes among transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people? In this secondary analysis of the 2015 US Transgender Survey (n = 27 715), TGD people with a history of gender-affirming ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusion: This study demonstrates an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes. These results contribute new evidence to support the provision of gender-affirming surgical care for TGD people.

Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Prevalence - PMC

Supplemental Digital Content is available in the text.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusion: Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

I’ll leave you to scream about the morality of it all. You will NEVER find consensus because morals are not universal. Some despite oh so much proof ( centuries worth) , that trying to shove morals down other people throats never works. Still do.

I’ll just paraphrase PP.
WTF

 

[Frankfooter]

I’ll leave you to scream about the morality of it all. You will NEVER find consensus because morals are not universal. Some despite oh so much proof ( centuries worth) , that trying to shove morals down other people throats never works. Still do.

I’ll just paraphrase PP.
WTF

Tell you what.
We can all agree that you won't get any trans surgery.

Now stop trying to tell other people what kind of body mods they are allowed to do.
Boob jobs - ok
boob removal- nope
penis enlargement - ok
penis removal - nope
penis grafting - nope

Go see Azura at Allegra and tell her she is immoral.