Israel at war

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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If you think there is another option, then explain how it will work and why it will work. I gave you justifications and proof of why it won't happen including statements from Israeli politicians themselves. You have only resorted to paying lip service to a 2 state solution, without explaining further. Until you do, there is nothing to talk about.

Plus you have been passive aggressively adding "Sad" at the end of every response, when it is clear that every "sad" comment you type is basically you gloating on the brutalization of the Palestinians because of the obvious reality that the Palestinians neither have the political support in the west nor the military strength to empower themselves to get the freedoms they desire. So every "sad" comment of yours, is really an inhumane gesture, and a disingenuous expression of regret, much like your 2-state solution recommendation. This attitude is nothing to be proud about.
Your circuitous rantings are becoming tedious. The 2 state solution in theory is really quite simple and I am not sure whether you are just stupid or disingenuous in professing ignorance.

Any resolution will involve swaps of land and Israel abandoning some number of settlements. Not complicated in theory.

in practice it will be very difficult and require different more courageous leaders on both sides as well as the elimination of Hamas,

it is achievable with the right leadership, the alternative is status quo.

And it is sad because without people like you selling a dream which will never be realized Palestine would probably have been a prosperous sovereign nation in the WB and Gaza for the last 60 years, that to me is sad.
 
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Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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And it is sad because without people like you selling a dream which will never be realized
ironically enough even Palestinians are not buying that dream and I don’t know who’s buying it except for dumb woke who have never visited Middle East
 

xmontrealer

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May 23, 2005
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Bibi has said he will expand settlements. So expanding settlements means, no abandoning settlements as they cannot simultaneously happen.

And yes, with the right leadership it is possible, except that Israel - both on the right and on the left, does not have any. The only available leadership, whether stated or unstated, does not want to give back land.

Former Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon said in 1973: “We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlement in between the Palestinians and another strip of Jewish settlement right across the West Bank so that in 25 years’ time neither the U.N. nor the U.S., nobody will be able to tear it apart.” Again, in 1998 shortly before being elected prime minister, Sharon wrote: “Everyone has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours … Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”

I do acknowledge however that in 1948, the Palestinians should have just formed the state instead of the war. That was a strategic error in not establishing a state when they could have, despite what they may have felt about the partition.
I agree with your last sentence, and that there is no permanent and peaceful solution possible with the current leadership on both sides.

Bibi will eventually lose power, and I hope more reasonable leadership in Israel will prevail. I do believe the general populace would prefer a peaceful 2 state solution, even if it required pulling the settlers out of the West bank.

I have little hope for reasonable leadership in Gaza and the West Bank, not to mention Iran, that will recognize Israel's right to exist under any circumstance. And for that matter it has been shown that the general Palestinian populace is not in favour of a peaceful 2 state solution under any reasonable circumstance.
 
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mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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After all that adolescent kicking and screaming you can’t escape the fact that the chair of the Israeli committee investigating the rapes put out a piece of completely fabricated evidence. And Max was absolutely accurate about it.
Except he wasn't. Because he's a liar.

And I posted that the chief prosecutor of the ICC accepts the rapes.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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Bibi has said he will expand settlements. So expanding settlements means, no abandoning settlements as they cannot simultaneously happen.

And yes, with the right leadership it is possible, except that Israel - both on the right and on the left, does not have any. The only available leadership, whether stated or unstated, does not want to give back land.

Former Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon said in 1973: “We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlement in between the Palestinians and another strip of Jewish settlement right across the West Bank so that in 25 years’ time neither the U.N. nor the U.S., nobody will be able to tear it apart.” Again, in 1998 shortly before being elected prime minister, Sharon wrote: “Everyone has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours … Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”

I do acknowledge however that in 1948, the Palestinians should have just formed the state instead of the war. That was a strategic error in not establishing a state when they could have, despite what they may have felt about the partition.
As I have said many times Bibi is not the leader needed to negotiate a 2 state solution but the actions of Hamas while weakening him personally because of numerous failings has strengthened the hawks. That should have been entirely predictable. But given that Hamas is really not interested in peace it rather inflicting as many civilian deaths on both sides that may actually play into their strategy and as usual the Palestinian people pay the price. Certainly not he Hamas leadership which has stolen millions and perhaps billions.
 
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mandrill

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Aaron Mate is a partner w Max Blumenthal at Grayzone News. Same pile of shit from the same asshole.

I scrolled Mate's Twitter page and it offered me follows w Blumenthal and - Wait for it! - Jackson Hinkle, an equally notorious shite-toad and this Richard Medhurst dude who - I suspect - is cut from the same cloth.

Actually, I got a laugh seeing Medhurst re posting George Galloway. Galloway is another well-known, Kremlin-paid shitbag.

These guys are a notorious international joke. If you quote them, you make an ass of yourself. It's like quoting Sputnik or RT.

Here's Mate's Wiki bio, not as accusatory as the ones about Blumenthal and Galloway, but he's clearly closely Kremlin affiliated.


Actually, what is really proven with these dicks is that the Kremlin is backing HAMAS and wants to cause maximum chaos with the current situation.
 
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xmontrealer

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May 23, 2005
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From The New York Times today. Gee, I wonder how this could have gone south for the whole region?

Militant Rocket Hit Base Linked to Israeli Nuclear Missile Program
A Times visual analysis found that a rocket launched from Gaza on Oct. 7 hit an Israeli military base believed to house nuclear-capable missiles, although it’s likely they were not in danger.

Satellite imagery taken before and after an Oct. 7 rocket strike showed the sudden appearance of scorched earth at the Sdot Micha military base in central Israel.CreditCredit...The New York Times, Source: Planet Labs
Riley Mellen
By Riley Mellen
Riley Mellen, a member of The Times’s Visual Investigations team, analyzed publicly available satellite imagery, rocket alarm data and social media posts to report this story.
Dec. 4, 2023Updated 12:25 p.m. ET
A rocket most likely fired by Hamas militants during their Oct. 7 attack on Israel struck an Israeli military base where, experts say, many of the country’s nuclear-capable missiles are based, according to a visual analysis of the attack’s aftermath by The New York Times.

While the missiles themselves weren’t hit, the rocket’s impact, at the Sdot Micha base in central Israel, sparked a fire that approached missile storage facilities and other sensitive weaponry.

Israel has never acknowledged the existence of its nuclear arsenal, though Israeli whistle-blowers, U.S. officials and satellite imagery analysts all agree that the country possesses at least a small number of nuclear weapons.
Hans Kristensen, director of the Federation of American Scientists’ Nuclear Information Project, told The Times that he estimates there are most likely 25 to 50 nuclear-capable Jericho missile launchers at the base. According to experts and declassified U.S. government documents, Israel’s Jericho missiles are equipped to carry nuclear warheads.

Those warheads are most likely kept in a separate location away from the base and thus were not under threat during the attack, said Mr. Kristensen, who has studied the base.
The previously unreported strike on Sdot Micha is the first known instance of Palestinian militants hitting a site suspected of containing Israeli nuclear weaponry. It’s unclear if they knew the specifics of what they were targeting, beyond the base simply being a military facility. Hamas, the group that fired the majority of the rockets on Oct. 7, did not respond to requests for comment.
But the targeting of one of the most sensitive military locations in Israel shows that the scope of the Oct. 7 attacks may have been even greater than previously known — and that rockets can penetrate the airspace around Israel’s closely guarded strategic weapons.





By Scott Reinhard
The attack on the area around Sdot Micha involved a series of rockets over several hours, according to warning alarm data. It’s unclear how many rockets were intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome air defense system, or managed to slip through and hit the base in addition to the one found by The Times. In some cases around the country on Oct. 7, Iron Dome became overwhelmed by the amount of incoming fire or ran out of interceptor missiles.

A spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces declined to comment on The Times’s findings. Since Oct. 7, though, Israel appears to have recognized and responded to the threat of rocket attacks at Sdot Micha. Recent satellite images show new earthen berms and barriers have been built around military positions near the rocket impact location, presumably to defend against shrapnel or blast debris from future attacks.

The Times first identified the fire caused by the attack on Sdot Micha using public NASA satellite imagery for detecting wildfires. There has not been a fire — from any cause — of similar magnitude at the base since at least 2004.

Further evidence of the attack exists in publicly available satellite imagery, rocket alarm records and social media posts, which also revealed efforts to fight the brush fire ignited by the fallen rocket.


Scorched earth
from rocket strike
Military
infrastructure
Suspected
Jericho
missile base
1,500 ft.
Source: Federation of American Scientists, Satellite image by Planet Labs
By The New York Times
The rocket struck within the confines of the base, located 25 miles northeast of Gaza and 15 miles west of Jerusalem, at around 10 a.m. It landed in a small ravine adjacent to a Jericho missile facility, a large radar system and a battery of air defense missiles. The explosion quickly started a fire in the thick, dry vegetation.

While The Times could not confirm if other rockets also struck the base, satellite imagery captured at 10:30 a.m. shows the fire near the Jericho missiles was the only one on the base.
More satellite images taken in the hours after the strike captured the rapid spread of the fire and Israeli firefighters’ efforts to stem its growth. At least two firefighting aircraft and streaks of bright red fire retardant were visible near the fire. The next day, a satellite image revealed that new roads and firebreaks had been cut through the woods to contain the flames, which appeared to be extinguished.
Decker Eveleth, a researcher at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies who analyzed the images, said it appeared that “paths were created by firefighting vehicles making sure the fire didn’t get near the launchers.”


Fire retardant
Satellite image by Planet Labs
By The New York Times
According to a University of Maryland database tracking attacks on nuclear facilities, there have been only about five known strikes worldwide on bases with nuclear weapons in the past. But because of the inherent secrecy of nuclear weapons, the exact number may never be publicly known. However, Gary Ackerman, one of the researchers who established the database, said the Oct. 7 attack was unique. “This is not something that happens every day,” he said.



Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups typically fire rockets at Israeli towns and cities relatively close to Gaza. Indeed, they fired thousands of projectiles at these locations on Oct. 7. On the rarer occasions that the groups fire longer-range rockets, they usually target Israeli cities farther from Gaza like Tel Aviv and Rishon LeZion rather than the military bases storing advanced weaponry that, in some cases, are much closer to Gaza.

The Sdot Micha base, in existence since 1962 and clearly visible on public satellite imagery, occupies thousands of acres of rolling hills. While rockets fired by militants in the Gaza Strip can be inaccurate, it is unlikely Sdot Micha was hit by accident. There are virtually no other targets — besides sensitive military facilities — within two miles of the rocket’s impact site. There are also few important, nonmilitary targets in the greater region as a whole because of its sparse population.

Though the fire burned approximately 40 acres at the base, weaponry and equipment remained safe. The flames stopped about 1,000 feet from the nearest suspected Jericho missile facility, but approached within 400 feet of a large radar system built on a hill at the base, according to a Times analysis of satellite imagery.
Mr. Kristensen observed that, even if the fire had reached the missiles, their underground, tunneled storage facilities were built to withstand damage. Still, he noted the risks inherent in a fire of this size burning near volatile fuel and munition depots. “All sorts of things can go wrong,” he said.
 

Klatuu

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2022
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Aaron Mate is a partner w Max Blumenthal at Grayzone News. Same pile of shit from the same asshole.

I scrolled Mate's Twitter page and it offered me follows w Blumenthal and - Wait for it! - Jackson Hinkle, an equally notorious shite-toad and this Richard Medhurst dude who - I suspect - is cut from the same cloth.

Actually, I got a laugh seeing Medhurst re posting George Galloway. Galloway is another well-known, Kremlin-paid shitbag.

These guys are a notorious international joke. If you quote them, you make an ass of yourself. It's like quoting Sputnik or RT.

Here's Mate's Wiki bio, not as accusatory as the ones about Blumenthal and Galloway, but he's clearly closely Kremlin affiliated.


Actually, what is really proven with these dicks is that the Kremlin is backing HAMAS and wants to cause maximum chaos with the current situation.
Your conspiracy theories are getting more florid by the moment.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
62,630
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Franky keeps talking about the ICC. I wonder what excuses he's making to ignore them here.


In both Kibbutz Beeri and Kibbutz Kfar Azza, as well as at the site of the Nova Music Festival in Re’im, I witnessed scenes of calculated cruelty. The attacks against innocent Israeli civilians on 7 October represent some of the most serious international crimes that shock the conscience of humanity, crimes which the ICC was established to address. In my meeting with the families of the victims of these attacks, my message was clear: we stand ready to work in partnership with them as part of our ongoing work to hold those responsible to account. I also stand ready to engage with relevant national authorities in line with the principle of complementarity at the heart of the Rome Statute. Such engagement, like my visit, would be without prejudice to the position of Israel on jurisdiction, and as a non-State Party to the Rome Statute.

I called for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages taken by Hamas and other terror organisations. There can be no justification for the holding of any hostages, and in particular the egregious breach of fundamental principles of humanity through the taking and continued holding of children. Hostages cannot be treated as human shields or bargaining chips.

...

In relation to Gaza, and notwithstanding any ongoing violations of international humanitarian law by Hamas and other armed groups in the Gaza Strip, the manner in which Israel responds to these attacks is subject to clear legal parameters that govern armed conflict. Conflict in densely populated areas where fighters are alleged to be unlawfully embedded in the civilian population is inherently complex, but international humanitarian law must still apply and the Israeli military knows the law that must be applied.

As I have stated previously, Israel has trained lawyers who advise commanders and a robust system intended to ensure compliance with international humanitarian law. Credible allegations of crimes during the current conflict should be the subject of timely, independent examination and investigation. On this visit, I again stressed that the clear legal principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality must be complied with so that the protection of the law is rendered meaningful for those who need it. I emphasised that not only must the letter of the law be complied with, but also the spirit upheld. International humanitarian law and the provisions of the Rome Statute are there to protect the most vulnerable.

 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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Try as you might, he produced the evidence the video. You can’t unwind reality.
He's notorious for distorting stuff. And the allegations against Hamas are now pretty much accepted as true. Nice try. Do better.
 
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mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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Your conspiracy theories are getting more florid by the moment.
No. I got to know all these guys by following the Ukraine War for a couple of years. These guys are paid mouthpieces. THAT'S WHY THERE ARE WIKI ARTICLES STATING THAT THEY ARE PAID MOUTHPIECES.

If these notorious bullshitters are who you rely on, people are going to simply laugh at you.
 
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mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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Let’s learn a little about the chief Israeli investigator on the rapes issue. She’s being touted as a human rights advocate. Hardly. Read it and try not to laugh.

More Blumenthal. Do better.

Here's a challenge for you. Go find the same material NOT written by Blumenthal, Mate, Galloway, Hinkley or someone else who isn't written up in Wiki as a Kremlin stooge and liar.
 
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