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Alberta leaving CPP could backfire on Pee Pee

bver_hunter

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Alberta can set up its own pension plan, that is clear. But the likelihood of Alberta doing so under the terms laid out in the report is zero:

The report asserts Alberta is entitled to $334 billion, or 53 per cent, of the CPP’s total base assets of $575 billion. One wonders if perhaps Canada is meant to view this as a bargain, given that the report notes $334 billion is Alberta’s minimum entitlement; it could be $637 billion, eclipsing the entire fund!

Alberta can set up its own pension plan, that is clear. But the likelihood of Alberta doing so under the terms laid out in the report is zero. Accountants and economists are no doubt already crunching the numbers, but University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe estimates Alberta’s entitlement is probably closer to 20-25 per cent, not 53 per cent, so maybe $129 billion. This falls well short of the money the UCP needs in order to sell Albertans on the benefits of pursuing its quasi-separatist urges.

The idea of “sticking it” to Canada sells well with many UCP supporters, even if they would be the ones feeling the pointy end of that stick. Thus, we can expect over the next while wall-to-wall government ads and Premier Smith, on her weekly radio show, extolling the benefits of going it alone. The government has promised a referendum on the issue. My guess — my hope — is that Albertans will see this proposal for the political hucksterism it is and vote it down. But stranger things have happened before: think Brexit.

No matter the referendum’s result, the plan faces huge obstacles. There is the certain opposition of the premiers of other provinces, several of whom are conservatives. While many support Smith’s efforts to gain more provincial power, breaking up the CPP is a bridge too far, especially when the claim is well over half the plan’s assets.

Technically, of course, the other premiers have no say in the matter. But technicalities be damned, they will be heard — and loudly, because the extortionate “entitlements” demanded by Alberta are not only absurd on their face but would cause enormous harm to current CPP recipients living outside Alberta, as well as the other provinces’ economies.

Technically, also, the federal parties have no say in the matter. The fund is administered independent of the government. But the UCP’s plan creates a dilemma for Pierre Poilievre, in particular. He currently sports a huge lead in the polls and is positively giddy at the thought of becoming prime minister. As always, the party counts on support in Alberta, a province that federal conservatives, under a myriad of names, have owned since the late 1950s.

Being prime minister means being PM for everyone, not just Albertans. The national economy relies on an integrated network of policies and programs, among them the CPP which allows workers to move seamlessly from region to region to take up jobs, and for retired workers to live comfortable lives in their later years. How will Poilievre respond to a provincial government whose course of action aims at bankrupting a key part of that economy?

He may wish to place the entire blame on Justin Trudeau. But the UCP’s actions are aimed at the Canadian state and its people. The federal Conservatives cannot duck and hide from the issue. Danielle Smith’s hand grenade, aimed at Canada, is just as likely to find its victim Poilievre’s Conservative party.

 

Not getting younger

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Been covered, to most degrees.
What is 25% of 650billion??? This is likely the amount or possibly a little more depending on how the law is determined and settled depending on appreciation of assets. Real estate, stocks, plus more…plus there’s also the possibility the plan and feds might decide shit, testing it in court could be a roll of the dice and Extremely expensive…What kind of offer???

.Either way 150B-175B is more than enough. They are young and wealthy

Other premieres and their constituents have zero say. And from many Albertans point of view given the alienation, division, lack of caring about squat, until pocketbooks are threatened, lack of appreciation, deaf ears over equalization and phasing out oil can go F themselves. They won’t give a poop what you or Ford think or want..

Referendum.
Nicely timed to coincide with their provincial election, and the next Federal. Will they pull the plug on CPP? Don’t know, do you want to find out?
 

bver_hunter

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University of Calgary economics professor Trevor Tombe said that number depends largely on how much of CPP assets that Alberta could end up getting.

He estimates that if less than 22.5 per cent of CPP assets are given to a separate Alberta plan — in other words, less than half of the $334 billion that Alberta contends it should receive — then contributions from other CPP members might not need to increase, since Alberta's separating relieves some of the obligations of the CPP.

"It all comes down to that asset split, but unfortunately the language in the act is fairly vague," Tombe said.

"It's not obvious what it means and ultimately there's going to be a multi-year-long Supreme Court of Canada fight over what the act actually means."

Well this could backfire on a Pee Pee Election Campaign for sure!!
 
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Not getting younger

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As I said.
A very very expensive and risky ( likely more than 25% but less than 50%) game of chicken. Ultimately the premieres have no say. The Supreme Court will. The law. Emotions count for Jack.

what date is the referendum? The or else?

And you are underplaying/underestimating the resentment out West after decades of “who cares”. We don’t think about them.

Until now. Can’t deny it’s got everyone’s attention…
 
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Frankfooter

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As I said.
A very very expensive and risky ( likely more than 25% but less than 50%) game of chicken. Ultimately the premieres have no say. The Supreme Court will. The law. Emotions count for Jack.

what date is the referendum? The or else?

And you are underplaying/underestimating the resentment out West after decades of “who cares”. We don’t think about them.

Until now. Can’t deny it’s got everyone’s attention…
More likely 15%, based on population.
 

bver_hunter

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As I said.
A very very expensive and risky ( likely more than 25% but less than 50%) game of chicken. Ultimately the premieres have no say. The Supreme Court will.

what date is the referendum? The or else?

And you are underplaying/underestimating the resentment out West after decades of “who cares”. We don’t think about them.

Until now. Can’t deny it’s got everyone’s attention…
25 to 50% is even considered an overestimate. More likely closer to 16%, is what they could withdraw from this pot.
Now this could take up to three years and the present opinion by Alberta residents is that they do not support it.
However, this will be fodder for the cattle when Pee Pee is going to be questioned at the debates as to his opinion and how it could impact the Canadians if he takes office!!

Instead, the survey assumes an Alberta pension plan is a good idea and asks Albertans how they would like to see it administered, which Phillips likens to asking respondents what colour they would like for their unicorn.
A report commissioned for the Alberta government says a stand-alone pension plan can deliver higher benefits and lower contributions based on a calculation that suggests the province deserves half the $575 billion in the CPP.
Analysts, including the CPP investment board, put Alberta’s share much lower at 12 to 20 per cent.
The government survey is one component of a consultation strategy announced last week by Premier Danielle Smith.

A panel led by former finance minister Jim Dinning is also to hold telephone town halls and other consultations in the months to come.
 

Not getting younger

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Find actuaries or economists that have no stake/no skin in the game and this is a big game. Tombe is one.

For shits and giggles let’s go with the lowball estimate. There will be those saying that for the same reasons some will say 50. Fear and greed are the two most powerful motivators on the planet.

20% of 700 billion.
 

bver_hunter

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Doesn't Quebec have their own CPP plan?
And in English, Ohmerghad!
Sure Quebec did so right from the word go when they opted to do it independently from the Federal CPP Plan.
No one is stopping Alberta from leaving this CPP, but they have to follow the Protocols that could take 3 years and not have any divine rights to demand their overhyped percentage share of the pot.
 

Not getting younger

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Sure Quebec did so right from the word go when they opted to do it independently from the Federal CPP Plan.
No one is stopping Alberta from leaving this CPP, but they have to follow the Protocols that could take 3 years and not have any divine rights to demand their overhyped percentage share of the pot.
The question, the uncertainty is no-one, absolutely no-one knows how the law will be interpreted…..This has never, ever, happened before…

That said, there are laws about divisions of assets. For divorce, companies that split off and more. They all, include provisions and methods for including “contributions”….and capital appreciation.

Don’t believe me?
Buy a house with someone. Or have a girlfriend move in, and then split 10 years down the road.

what was the house worth when she moved in. What contributions did she make for 10 years. What is the house worth today. She gets 50% of the appreciation from the day she moved in.

And there is zero, no, nada, arguing that for many many many many years. They have contributed far more, than they have received back. And, let’s not forget Boomers, who are starting to take from CPP. How many boomers in Ontario vs Alberta..They will absolutely be getting the short end for the next 30 years. And my guess is, They know that too.

And the electorate here, has taken that for granted ( like equalization), but even worse has done little more than throw them under the bus and turn blind eyes to a lot. Not unlike they did to central Ontario and more.

So I guess the question is. Do you really want that referendum to happen? . Even at the lowball end, it’s going to hurt a lot. Immediately and going forward, without them carrying everyone else.
 
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Not getting younger

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One last thing, or one other thing, lest someone think I’m miserable. or “blind” comments

The sad truth is, they have been talking and threatening this, just like separation. Since around 2016 when the Liberals took over and the writing was on the wall.

/whoosh..
Right past everyone here in Ontario.

Until now.
Now it’s viral and we care. Funny that.
 
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Insidious Von

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What Albertans have to ask themselves, do you trust the Conservatives to deliver the goods.

Their record isn't that good, Meech Lake, Brexit, MAGA, The Greenbelt, not to mention the Sovereign Wealth Fund.
 

Darts

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My late mom contributed to the QPP. When we moved to Ontario, she continued to receive her QPP pension. Can't speak about future years.
 

silentkisser

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Doesn't Quebec have their own CPP plan?
And in English, Ohmerghad!
Sure Quebec did so right from the word go when they opted to do it independently from the Federal CPP Plan.
No one is stopping Alberta from leaving this CPP, but they have to follow the Protocols that could take 3 years and not have any divine rights to demand their overhyped percentage share of the pot.
Was going to say the QPP started at the same time as the CPP. And the CPPIB does a really good job. They have an excellent track record. The thing here is, Alberta is pitching a totally unrealistic view of what would happen if they pulled out. The report is so bad that the author wished to remain anonymous. How could Alberta say with a straight face that it was entitled to 53% of the CPP in 2027, when they only contributed 16%? And then the amount they say they can reduce monthly contributions for employers and employees is another pie-in-the-sky figure. Sure, they might be able to make it a bit less than what people pay into CPP, but not the amount they're spreading.

Now, I was listening to Calgary talk radio on Friday, and while there were many who LOVED the idea of an APP, I think they are probably in the minority. The last poll I saw was that only 21% of people supported the idea. And the reality here is, there will be higher costs for an APP to manage the funds. They wouldn't have the same scale as the CPP they could leverage to see lower management fees. Plus, they'd need to either hire their own staff of investment professionals, or tap an outside organization.

I just see this as Daniele Smith making another stupid promise that will never pan out. It reminds me a lot of Brexit, the pro leaving side said a lot of stupid things that have never materialized, and it has hurt the country in many significant ways! I could totally see the same sort of thing happening here.
 
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Not getting younger

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silentkisser.
What semi neutral sources have you found for all that? You think anyone from any province isn’t going to argue for the low end?

The 16% your quoting is just their contribution level. It doesn’t take into account appreciation of assets.

Worded differently they are 16% “owners”…(should also give you all an idea of the disproportionate amount everyone has been happily to take without giving them much thought).

As if you would think or walk away from a house you co-bought with some “friends” At 100,000 years ago, but today was worth 5,000,000 because it’s all the stocks, real estate and more has gone up in value…No one would argue you aren’t entitled to share in those profits. Nor would you.

Assuming it doesn’t go to the Supreme Court and assuming the referendum is a go. They and the provinces will try to “negotiate” a settlement. Hence the high number. Like any other. Start high and low. But if they can’t agree, then the Supreme Court will decide what the settlement is.
 
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Not getting younger

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Most likely, most realistically this is just a big FU at Ontario who stands to lose/get hurt the most given we are um, just the most populous and top heavy with Boomers.…And we have a habit, of..And Que won’t feel it at all. Worded differently….think long and hard about your votes next time “or else”

But unlike separation this is something they can do. Pretty easily in a manner of speaking.

Read the (sorry 3rd) paragraph
 
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benstt

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And there is zero, no, nada, arguing that for many many many many years. They have contributed far more, than they have received back. And, let’s not forget Boomers, who are starting to take from CPP. How many boomers in Ontario vs Alberta..They will absolutely be getting the short end for the next 30 years. And my guess is, They know that too.
Alberta doesn't receive anything back, their pensioners do, wherever the pensioners live in retirement.

For example, if someone worked a few years in the oil patch in Alberta under an APP, then moved to BC or the Maritimes to retire (a very common scenario), the APP would still be liable to pay them the pension earned while they contributed to it in Alberta. If they worked many years in Alberta, the APP has a larger obligation to pay for their future pension.

Would Alberta benefit from those pension dollars paid out to a senior? No, the senior draws the income and spends it in their new home province.

The real solution for Alberta as a province to get more value from the CPP relative to other provinces is to figure out why people don't want to retire there, and make changes under their control.
 

Darts

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"The current "have not" provinces are Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PEI, with payments extending into the 2016/17 fiscal year. Despite Alberta's serious oil shock, payments are calculated on a 3 year rolling average, meaning the province will not qualify for several more years, assuming conditions do not improve. The last time Alberta qualified for"

Quebec doesn't need Alberta oil. It gets its oil from Saudi Arabia.
Quebec's $300 billion in equalization payments touches nerve in pipeline wars | Oil Sands Magazine
 
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