"Israel, Similar to Apartheid": Ekos Canada Poll

[basketcase]

Civilians who have invaded their land.

Ah, another person who thinks international law doesn't need to apply to Palestinians. Sorry pal but terrorism is terrorism, no matter who it is targeting civilians.

 

[Klatuu]

Sources? Should be easy for you.

You haven’t been able to provide sources grandpa. As we’ve already had you laughably demonstrate

 

[Frankfooter]

Says the guy who instead of admitting these are terrorism claims they are self defence

Suspected Palestinian shooting attack at West Bank car wash kills 2 Israelis

Two Israelis were killed in a suspected Palestinian shooting attack on a car wash in a volatile stretch of the occupied West Bank on Saturday, the latest outburst of violence to rock the region.

www.ctvnews.ca

Sep 2023: Palestinian attacker wounds 2 people in stabbing attack outside Jerusalem's Old City

JERUSALEM (AP) — A Palestinian youth stabbed two people, moderately wounding one of them, in an attack Wednesday outside a main entrance to the Old City of Jerusalem, authorities said. Israeli police...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

‘You were full of light’: Funeral held for woman killed in Hebron area terror shooting

Batsheva Nigri, 42, laid to rest in Kfar Etzion as family, friends mourn dedicated mother, wife, kindergarten teacher; 12-year-old daughter, who was in the vehicle, recounts attack

www.timesofisrael.com

This is from your first article:

Several Israelis have been killed in Hawara in the current round of fighting and the death of two brothers, residents of a nearby settlement, set off a rampage by settlers through the town in February. They torched dozens of cars and homes in some of the worst settler violence in decades. Similar settler mob violence has taken place elsewhere in the West Bank since.

This is what started this latest round of violence, of course you are trying to blame Palestinians.
Why do you refuse to admit that the apartheid occupation is the root of all the violence, not the native population resisting?
Its not like you blame Ukrainians for fighting back against Putin.

Armed Israeli settlers rampage through Palestinian town in revenge attack
Palestinians say man was killed and 10 were injured after settlers rampaged through West Bank town and army opened fire

 

[basketcase]

This is the sum total of land purchased by Jews legitimately before the 1948 land grab. As you can see it accounts for less than 5% of Israeli territory.

For reference, Mandatory Palestine as a whole had a territory of 26,625,600 dunams. The most generous estimations of Zionist land holdings were 2,000,000 dunums by 1948. For reference, a dunam is 1000 square meters. An acre is four dunams.

As you can see, at most the combined Zionist purchasing power could barely acquire 5-7% of the land, depending on source. Needless to say, huge swathes of it being strewn around the entire territory and being non-contiguous. Due to the ease with which this talking point can be debunked, it gradually fell out of favor -relatively speaking- among Israelis. However, it has since seen a resurgence among Arab Zionists desperate for normalization with Israel. In their eyes, this myth needs to be true so that they can blame the Palestinians for their own dispossession and legitimize their cynical political maneuvering.

This talking point is further undermined by Israel’s own legislation and policy following the Nakba. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine would not stop after the war of 1948, Palestinians in the Naqab, as well as those close to the ceasefire lines would continue to face mass expulsions into the 1950s. In the same period, Israel issued the infamous Absentee’s Property Law. This law was instrumental in systematically seizing the property of all the refugees it had created, this included their homes, farms, land and even the contents of their bank accounts. Through this law, the state took control of everything remaining behind when the refugees were expelled, and if not contested or claimed, they would then become the property of the state, free to be utilized in any way it saw fit. Given the fact that any refugee attempting to return was shot, you can see how this law served merely as a fig leaf to legitimize what can only be described as naked theft. A step which would be unnecessary had the Zionists actually purchased the land on which Israel was erected, as some ridiculously claim.

This in conjunction with the Land Acquisitions Law allowed for the mass transfer of the entire Palestinian economy to the Israeli state. Practically overnight, the state gained control of over 739,750 agricultural acres, vast majority of which were of excellent quality, 73,000 houses, 7800 workshops and 6 million pounds. This dropped the cost of settling a Zionist family in Palestine from 8000$ to 1500$, effectively subsidizing the creation of the Israeli state and kickstarting its economy.

So, while we have already shown that the record shows no such large-scale purchase of the land as asserted, let us take a deeper look at these smaller purchases and discuss their implications.

First, it is important to note that the majority of the land purchased by Zionists were not sold by Palestinians, but rather by large absentee landlords, living mostly in Lebanon and Syria. The estimates are that a little over the third (of the 5-7%) were sold by absentee landlords of Palestinian origin. And only 6% of the (5-7%) were sold by local landlords or peasants. These estimates are mostly corroborated by Walter Lehn and based on reports from the Jewish Agency that confirmed that the majority of land purchased was from large absentee landlords.

There is also evidence that suggests that these local sellers did not always wish to sell their land. For example, one mode of land extraction was when the Jewish National Fund gave loans to farmers with the precondition that their land would be used as collateral, and when the farmer ultimately defaulted on their payments, they would take possession of the land. In other cases, these peasants thought they were simply selling land to new neighbors. They did not know that they were selling their land for the erection of a new foreign colonial state that sought to dispossess them.

Furthermore, even if the percentage of the territories purchased by Zionist settlers was higher, this would not entitle them to sovereignty over it.

Ultimately, the question of Palestine is not about property rights. It is about settler colonialism and the attempted ethnocide of an entire people. Palestinians deserve to return to their homes and live in dignity, regardless how much private property they lost or didn’t lose.




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Did you read any of what that said? No Arabs were forced to sell land. The closest the source says is loans were given with land as collateral which happens in absolutely every western country.

You might also not care but under the Ottomans, Palestine, Lebanon, and much of Syria and Jordan were the same province so An Arab who owned land in Damascus, Beirut, Amman, and Jaffa wasn't a foreigner. And are you saying that I don't have a right to buy or sell land in Hamilton because I don't currently live there? It seems you're taking a whole bunch of Marxist arguments about land rights while ignoring whole what Marx would say about claiming a land based on ethnic hatred. Fact is in a capitalisticish world, everything you're condemning Israel for happened and is happening right now in Canada.

But I do appreciate you at least trying to back up your arguments with historical sources (though you could at least link to the cut and paste).

 

[Klatuu]

So the Palestinian laws banning Jewish travellers, banning Jewish land ownership, and banning sales of land to Jews?

How do you know when grandpa is lying? Answer. Anytime he posts.

International laws bans the occupier from transferring their people to occupied land. Palestinian law forbids the sale of land to Israelis. That’s right…Israelis.

 

[Frankfooter]

Ah, another person who thinks international law doesn't need to apply to Palestinians. Sorry pal but terrorism is terrorism, no matter who it is targeting civilians.

Yet you think international law doesn't apply to Israelis.

Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory illegal: UN rights commission

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli government’s de facto annexation policies, a UN-appointed Commission of Inquiry said in its first report, published on Thursday.

news.un.org

Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert

GENEVA (25 March 2022) – A UN expert called today on the international community to accept and adopt the findings in his current report, echoing recent findings by Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organisations, that apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied...

www.ohchr.org

 

[Klatuu]

Did you read any of what that said? No Arabs were forced to sell land. The closest the source says is loans were given with land as collateral which happens in absolutely every western country.

You might also not care but under the Ottomans, Palestine, Lebanon, and much of Syria and Jordan were the same province so An Arab who owned land in Damascus, Beirut, Amman, and Jaffa wasn't a foreigner. And are you saying that I don't have a right to buy or sell land in Hamilton because I don't currently live there? It seems you're taking a whole bunch of Marxist arguments about land rights while ignoring whole what Marx would say about claiming a land based on ethnic hatred. Fact is in a capitalisticish world, everything you're condemning Israel for happened and is happening right now in Canada.

But I do appreciate you at least trying to back up your arguments with historical sources (though you could at least link to the cut and paste).

Give us your source grandpa. Do you know how?

 

[basketcase]

By that logic there was no US State. USA still belongs to the English?

By your logic, yes because you seem to think you have the right to demand the people living there do as you demand.

And yes, Israel (and Palestine) have exactly as much right to exist as any other country including the many countries that are actually colonial enterprises like Canada.

 

[basketcase]

What peace talks? How can there be peace without equal rights? Nonsense.

Exactly. Instead of forcing a One State peace against the will of most the people there and having to send some kind of military in to disarm groups that hate it, the international community should be pressuring both sides to negotiate a peace deal. Israel can't impose peace without the Palestinians agreement and the UN can't force peace without a serious army to fight an insurgency.

 

[basketcase]

I'll just copy/paste what I already wrote in response:

In the same period, Israel issued the infamous Absentee’s Property Law. ...

What does a law passed by Israel have to do with your claims that the Brits forced Arabs to sell land to Jews? Keep on googling shit. maybe you will eventually find something to back your accusation.

If you want to look at the root cause of tenant farmers not having rights to the land they farmed, try looking at the Ottoman Land reforms of 1858 and the way that land owners manipulated the poorly educated farmers to keep ownership of feudal lands. But that would involve admitting that there is someone to blame other than Jews.

 

[basketcase]

Lmao! The same international law that allowed to the purging of Palestinians from their land in the first place?

Ah, the selective mentality of an elitist supporting terrorism. Nice.

If you support international law than the attacks on civilians by groups like Hamas are illegal. if you don't support international law than it's more than a bit farcical to condemn Israel for violating it.

 

[Frankfooter]

Exactly. Instead of forcing a One State peace against the will of most the people there and having to send some kind of military in to disarm groups that hate it, the international community should be pressuring both sides to negotiate a peace deal. Israel can't impose peace without the Palestinians agreement and the UN can't force peace without a serious army to fight an insurgency.

For years here you've been warned that Israel was becoming apartheid.
Today you know Canada and the world sees Israel as apartheid.

But here you are still trying to blame the victims, using the wife beater's defence.

You've known this was coming for a long time.
So why didn't you do anything?

 

[Frankfooter]

Ah, the selective mentality of an elitist supporting terrorism. Nice.

If you support international law than the attacks on civilians by groups like Hamas are illegal. if you don't support international law than it's more than a bit farcical to condemn Israel for violating it.

If you support international law the occupation is illegal, apartheid is illegal and the 99 state backed settler terrorist attacks each month are illegal.
Do you support international law or not?

 

[basketcase]

LOL wut?! I'm the one saying the US was justified in overthrowing British rule. Just like Palestinians are justified to reject the British Mandate and Israeli rule. Israel only has a right to exist if it grants the Palestinians equal rights. Ethnostates have no right to exist.

Sure, they're justified in rejecting it but have to take responsibility for the results. The Arab/Palestinian leadership rejected any kind of Partition and chose to declare war. They are accountable for their actions and the role they have played in accelerating the conflict.

It is dumb to blame only one side and absolutely dumb to believe that peace can be achieved without the agreement of Palestinians.

 

[Frankfooter]

Sure, they're justified in rejecting it but have to take responsibility for the results. The Arab/Palestinian leadership rejected any kind of Partition and chose to declare war. They are accountable for their actions and the role they have played in accelerating the conflict.

It is dumb to blame only one side and absolutely dumb to believe that peace can be achieved without the agreement of Palestinians.

Israel has been the occupying power for over 75 years.
Stop trying to blame the victims for the occupation.

 

[basketcase]

If you support international law the occupation is illegal, apartheid is illegal and the 99 state backed settler terrorist attacks each month are illegal.
Do you support international law or not?

Will you ever admit that there are Palestinian attacks on civilians (terrorism) that violate international law or are you going to continue your racist farce that Jews being in the West Bank makes them valid targets?

 

[basketcase]

International Law declares Israel guilty of hundreds of human right's abuses and apartheid. The creation of the USA was "illegal." Nobody gives a shit.

Make up your mind. If you care about how International law applies to Israel, why do you think those same laws don't apply to Palestinians? is it because you think Palestinians are too far beneath you to be held accountable or do you just like what those Palestinian terror factions are doing?

 

[Frankfooter]

Will you ever admit that there are Palestinian attacks on civilians (terrorism) that violate international law or are you going to continue your racist farce that Jews being in the West Bank makes them valid targets?

Take that to the ICC along with the charges of apartheid and the illegal occupation.
Let them figure it out.

You do support international law, don't you?

 

[basketcase]

Are you going to accept it if I invade your house and take over 70% but say you get to keep the basement? Especially if I'm one man and you're a family of 5. Get real. Of course they rejected it.

The only side worthy of blame are the invaders and the oppressors. They have the power to create peace but they won't because they want a racist, fascist State.

Will you accept the fact that Jews were legally allowed to immigrate under both the Ottomans and much of the British mandate? Even if you think that the Ottomans and Brits ruled poorly, why do you insist on blaming people who followed their rules?

And sorry but your counterfactual tag line doesn't mean anything. Arab leadership rejected a Partition and are accountable for their choices. They chose war over any kind of peace and many Palestinian factions still reject any kind of peace alongside Jews.

 

[basketcase]

Take that to the ICC along with the charges of apartheid and the illegal occupation.
Let them figure it out.

You do support international law, don't you?

Ah, the racist who condemns terrorism from Jews but refuses to admit there is terrorism from Palestinians.