Affirmative Action

[Darts]

Guys like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. don't need universities. Truth be told, universities need them more than they need universities. A lot of universities would be starved for funds if not for donations by rich legacy donors.

"Harvard University (dropped out)"

 

[JohnLarue]

Sure, I’ve been seeing that all along.
But we’ve only gotten rid of one of them.

not going to happen
alumni donations is a big $ business in the USA

but as long as you are hell bent on changing the entrance criteria why not consider axe the athletic scholarship's driven by the NCAAs TV / broadcasting deals
and the academic fraud that accompanies them

florida state university scholarships scandal - Google Search
The scandal involved 61 athletes, and although the N.C.A.A. did not name them
which involved a learning specialist, an academic adviser and a tutor who took tests and wrote papers for athletes.

 

[Darts]

hell bent on changing the entrance criteria why not consider axe the athletic scholarship's driven by the NCAAs TV / broadcasting deals

Won't happen. Male athletes are a huge revenue raiser. Much of those funds go to fund women (and trans) sports.

 

[JohnLarue]

Won't happen. Male athletes are a huge revenue raiser. Much of those funds go to fund women (and trans) sports.

oh . i know they will not mess with athletic scholarships .... way too much $$$ involved

 

[Nathan 88]

oh . i know they will not mess with athletic scholarships .... way too much $$$ involved

I understand that money trumps grades with you.
But how happy would you be if your son or daughter were denied entry to a school because they chose a legacy student instead.

 

[John_Jacob]

If you believe that then you have no clue about the admissions policy and criteria.

Oh yes because the admissions policy and criteria is explicitly, "we want 80% Asian" when the proportion in Canada is much much less than that.

Maybe for the programs that do.not.matter. but for CS & Engineering, merit matters and they take the best.

Don't be a dumbass. I have 3 kids doing Waterloo Engineering and QUITE familiar with the process.

 

[JohnLarue]

I understand that money trumps grades with you.

do not make this personal
money trumps grades in the real world

perhaps its time you figured this out

But how happy would you be if your son or daughter were denied entry to a school because they chose a legacy student instead.

of course i would be disappointed for my kid, who would not be

however I would also accept the fact that legacy admission was accompanied by many alumni funded scholarships , which enable multiple talented kids to get post secondary education

now how does your ideology & virtual signally pay the way again?
with other peoples money perhaps?

 

[dirtydaveiii]

I don't know anything about it but I would guess this won't change anything. Affirmative action was most likely supplemented by accepting black athletes into the school so it was a win win - make it look like you are doing something good while you are taking unqualified minorities to bolster your sports programs. The argument that a surgeon would benefit from affirmative action is laughable. All it is suppose to do is give someone a chance that they wouldn't have because they aren't rich and white. It does not say that the professors have to pass them

 

[toguy5252]

Oh yes because the admissions policy and criteria is explicitly, "we want 80% Asian" when the proportion in Canada is much much less than that.

Maybe for the programs that do.not.matter. but for CS & Engineering, merit matters and they take the best.

Don't be a dumbass. I have 3 kids doing Waterloo Engineering and QUITE familiar with the process.

Merit is a meaningless term I your context. Are you referring only to marks because if you are I can assure it is more than marks. So if not just marks then what?

How do you determine merit?

 

[Nathan 88]

do not make this personal
money trumps grades in the real world

perhaps its time you figured this out



of course i would be disappointed for my kid, who would not be

however I would also accept the fact that legacy admission was accompanied by many alumni funded scholarships , which enable multiple talented kids to get post secondary education

now how does your ideology & virtual signally pay the way again?
with other peoples money perhaps?

No, I use my own money, as I did with both of my kids education.
What makes you think I’m using other peoples money?
Both of my kids went to very good schools, and I was happy to pay whatever the University charged.

 

[Nathan 88]

Sometimes it doesn’t pay to get caught bribing a school.

Lori Loughlin, actor charged in college bribery scheme, released from prison

She served a two-month sentence as her husband, Mossimo Giannulli, is serving five months and is scheduled to be released 17 April

www.theguardian.com

 

[John_Jacob]

Merit is a meaningless term I your context. Are you referring only to marks because if you are I can assure it is more than marks. So if not just marks then what?

How do you determine merit?

Don't be foolish. "I can assure ..more than marks" You have no idea how little you know about Engineering & CS at Waterloo.

This is an academic setting where you actually have to pass a rigorous academic program marks matter very much. Merit does not include your ability to MSOG or play the skin flute. This is Engineering and Computer Science, NOT B.A. nor B.Sci programs and not high school. No one cares how well you throw a football. Those that argue marks don't matter likely don't have them and seeking to justify something to themselves for failing. Those essays and interviews as part of the admission process matter very very little for programs that matter.

To Waterloo Engineering (and CS which piggy backs on them), marks DO matter. That is why they track the marks out of all the high schools ("Grade Adjustment Tool") and decrement the schools by 10%/20%/30% where the kids do poorly at University.

What also matters to them is how well you do on their Fermat and Euclid (and many others) contests. Guess what, marks are very highly correlated to how well you do on these tests.

...and guess what, if you haven't heard of the SHAD program, YOU Have no idea about their admissions process. >50% of the Engineering students have done SHAD. Guess what the over-riding factor is to get into SHAD? It ain't a B+ in Gender Studies at high school.

Thus, its NOT my definition of merit, it's very obviously theirs.

They've been doing it for YEARS and the Torstar finally found out about it.

When 94% is not 94: What University of Waterloo’s engineering admission tool reveals about high school grades

The controversial adjustment factor helps the university sort applications for a highly competitive program. But what does it tell us about grade inflation?

www.thestar.com

Here is the tool for 2020 so you can look up how grade inflation is being adjusted for...get your kid - or for you, grandkid since it's clear you're out of touch, out of an easy high school and put them into a high school where marks actually mean something.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OntarioUniversities/comments/kr7n54

 

[toguy5252]

Don't be foolish. "I can assure ..more than marks" You have no idea how little you know about Engineering & CS at Waterloo.

This is an academic setting where you actually have to pass a rigorous academic program marks matter very much. Merit does not include your ability to MSOG or play the skin flute. This is Engineering and Computer Science, NOT B.A. nor B.Sci programs. No one cares how well you throw a football. Those that argue marks don't matter likely don't have them and seeking to justify something to themselves for failing. Those essays and interviews as part of the admission process matter very very little for programs that matter.

To Waterloo Engineering (and CS which piggy backs on them), marks DO matter. That is why the track the marks out of all the high schools ("Grade Adjustment Tool") and decrement the schools by 10%/20%/30% where the kids do poorly at University.

What also matters to them is how well you do on their Fermat and Euclid (and many others) contests. Guess what, marks are very highly correlated to how well you do on these tests.

...and guess what, if you haven't heard of the SHAD program, YOU Have no idea about their admissions process.

Thus, its NOT my definition of merit, it's theirs.

They've been doing it for YEARS and the Torstar finally found out about it.

When 94% is not 94: What University of Waterloo’s engineering admission tool reveals about high school grades

The controversial adjustment factor helps the university sort applications for a highly competitive program. But what does it tell us about grade inflation?

www.thestar.com

Here is the tool for 2020 so you can look up how grade inflation is being adjusted for...get your kid out of an easy high school and put them into a high school where marks actually mean something.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OntarioUniversities/comments/kr7n54

Again more cut and paste meaningless dribble. Do you actually know what a SHAD progra is. It empahizsez not only matks but comminity and persoanl involvement etc. What do you thibk affirmative action is other than trying to build comminity and persoanl development. By the way why do you think most oprofessional and graduate programs reuire essays outlining your personal and community involvement. Just continually referring to merit in the abstract is meaningless.

 

[John_Jacob]

Again more cut and paste meaningless dribble. Do you actually know what a SHAD progra is. It empahizsez not only matks but comminity and persoanl involvement etc. What do you thibk affirmative action is other than trying to build comminity and persoanl development. By the way why do you think most oprofessional and graduate programs reuire essays outlining your personal and community involvement. Just continually referring to merit in the abstract is meaningless.

You're being foolish again and have no idea. Plus your complete inability to spell basic words proves my point.

Having three kids that have gone through SHAD and knowing three of the professors that were involved in it, ya, I think I know more than you.

"build comminity community and persoanl personal development" as well as "reuire require essays outlining your personal and community involvement." are for waste-of-time programs that exist so the dummies have somewhere to go. If you think they weight 'involvement and development" higher than the ability to actually pass the program, you're being foolish again. Then again, maybe everyone gets a medal at these programs you're referring to. Great programs.

Maybe we should define what "Professional programs" actually are. For example, teachers are NOT professionals and should stop calling themselves as such. They can act like a professional but they aren't one. Thus, Teachers College is not a professional program.

In Canada, so far, the top programs and the top schools use marks as their primary determination for merit to get into their programs. Waterloo Engineering and Computer Science don't have time to waste with the dummies and those that free-ride on other's work. Not "oh gee, I work at the food bank once a week" and "virtual signal on TERB".

These essays, and the emphasis placed on them, are there solely for white people to feel better that there is 'hope' for them since their kids are failing compared to the successful Asian kids.

 

[danmand]

I sense a certain level of hypocrisy with certain posters, who don’t like affirmative action, because it might give a university spot to a visible minority, but they are just fine with legacy students who may not be as qualified taking a spot from a more qualified student.

A certain level? It is full on hypocrisy.

 

[John_Jacob]

Fascinating article from Ms MelChen

Although Singapore and Malaysia started at the same level of economic development in the 1960s, today Malaysia (which practices explicit racial favoritism) has fallen far behind Singapore (which does not).

"Thomas Sowell, in Discrimination and Disparities, wrote extensively on how affirmative action ends up backfiring and making the very people it was designed to help worse off, by lowering academic standards for black and other minority students while holding other groups to higher standards......."affirmative action ends up backfiring and making the very people it was designed to help worse off...Like many ideas (see: defund the police), affirmative action appears to be yet another manifestation of what Rob Henderson has called 'luxury beliefs'"

The corollary to this is that other well-qualified students pay a price by being denied admission to educational institutions based on an immutable characteristic that they have no control over. Asians, for example, have to score 450 points higher than black students and 150 points higher than whites to have the same chance of admission to Harvard University. These de facto racial quotas end up stoking racial insecurity among the groups with artificially lowered admission thresholds, and grievance among the groups that are penalized with higher barriers to entry.

Singapore should serve as a model for how to fix racial disparities

At a time when race has emerged as one of the most explosive fault lines in American society, Singapore leads the way in equity

thespectator.com

 

[toguy5252]

You're being foolish again and have no idea. Plus your complete inability to spell basic words proves my point.

Having three kids that have gone through SHAD and knowing three of the professors that were involved in it, ya, I think I know more than you.

"build comminity community and persoanl personal development" as well as "reuire require essays outlining your personal and community involvement." are for waste-of-time programs that exist so the dummies have somewhere to go. If you think they weight 'involvement and development" higher than the ability to actually pass the program, you're being foolish again. Then again, maybe everyone gets a medal at these programs you're referring to. Great programs.

Maybe we should define what "Professional programs" actually are. For example, teachers are NOT professionals and should stop calling themselves as such. They can act like a professional but they aren't one. Thus, Teachers College is not a professional program.

In Canada, so far, the top programs and the top schools use marks as their primary determination for merit to get into their programs. Waterloo Engineering and Computer Science don't have time to waste with the dummies and those that free-ride on other's work. Not "oh gee, I work at the food bank once a week" and "virtual signal on TERB".

These essays, and the emphasis placed on them, are there solely for white people to feel better that there is 'hope' for them since their kids are failing compared to the successful Asian kids.

Spelling aside again you are simply spouting platitudes. Try and deal with issues substantively. I will overlook any spelling errors.

When you say that admission is based primarily on marks you are agreeing that it is not exclusively marks. Every school also takes other criteria into consideration and that is all affirmative action is.

And I have no idea a why you do not regard teachers as professionals. They are highly skilled and have a tremendous influence on our children during formative years.

 

[John_Jacob]

Spelling aside again you are simply spouting platitudes. Try and deal with issues substantively. I will overlook any spelling errors.

When you say that admission is based primarily on marks you are agreeing that it is not exclusively marks. Every school also takes other criteria into consideration and that is all affirmative action is.

And I have no idea a why you do not regard teachers as professionals. They are highly skilled and have a tremendous influence on our children during formative years.

Spelling and grammar; the difference between an adult and a child. The difference between being able to and not being able to. No wonder you don't think marks should matter in achievement.

You really don't know what "platitude" means do you? You're just throwing the first word that came to mind out there aren't you? As if providing actual evidence-based opinions is somehow a platitude versus thinking repeating 'but muh essays just 'cause" has meaning.

You also clearly have no idea of the definition of a professional. As if skill and influence (your criteria) determine what a Professional is. SUCH a wannabe. Hint: Professionals are.not.unionized. Wannabes think this doesn't matter.

"other criteria into consideration" - ah yes, immutable characteristics like race which one has no control over. The very definition of earned merit using your world view. Much like many of your terms, you are confusing merit with preferences.

 

[toguy5252]

You really don't know what "platitude" means do you? You're just throwing the first word that came to mind out there aren't you? You also clearly have no idea of the definition of a professional. As if skill and influence determine what a Professional is. Dear god, how do you get through life? Hint: Professionals are not unionized.

"other criteria into consideration" - ah yes, immutable characteristics like race which one has no control over. The very definition of earned merit using your world view. You are confusing merit with preferences.

LoL. Again criticizing my spelling is not substantive. You have obviously never been in a position of responsibility or had to make hiring decisions. Marks are a very poor indicator of future success. People who insist that marks be to test of admission or hiring use that to maintain the status quo. The so called meritocracy is simply a way to keep schools and organizations white and male and generally christian.

And it is ludicrous to suggest that someone is not a professional because they belong to a union.

 

[John_Jacob]

Marks are a very poor indicator of future success

Yes because failing school makes you SUCH a winner. Do you even listen to yourself?

IQ is very highly correlated to academic achievement and is also well correlated to future life success. Again, you're making statements that you very clearly have no idea about. Do you feel comfortable making shit up?

Top psychologist: IQ is the No. 1 predictor of work success

Top psychologist: IQ is the No. 1 predictor of work success—especially combined with these 5 traits

Does a high IQ definitely set you up for more success down the road – be it in terms of career advancement or higher salaries? The answer, essentially, is yes, according to researchers.

www.cnbc.com

Our analysis shows that the early measured IQ is a relatively good predictor of life success in terms of objective indicators.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20628656

Is IQ a Good Predictor of Success?

Is IQ a Good Predictor of Success?

This question originally appeared on Quora, the best answer to any question. Ask a question, get a great answer. Learn from experts and access insider...

slate.com

As the question is stated, the answer is simply “yes.” If you take a “real” IQ test, then the result is a strong statistical predictor of multiple future life outcomes—income, education level, health, even longevity. There are loads of studies that confirm these correlations.


Oh please feel free to back up your substantive opinion of "Marks are a very poor indicator of future success" . If you can.

Hint; "but I know I guy is not "data". The below chart illustrates a is a very very poor argument.




As for spelling? Oh it is very substantive. If you can't spell properly (or even recognize those little red squiggles on the screen), you're an idiot. If you're an idiot, what you say has no meaning. Learn to care about spelling properly. It's the adult thing to do.

As for a professional? A professional has a career, not a job. A professional does not need to belong to a union. A professional ALSO has a governing body to ensure that they meet the standards of that Profession. If they have no governing body, or no independent standards-based body removing their ability to practice their profession, they are not a professional. Professionals understand this. Non-Professionals, sometimes called wannabees, don't understand this.