I drive that road EVERY FUCKING DAY at non rush hour times. The alternative is to use Adelaide.
The Gardiner Expressway
- Thread starter GameBoy27
- Start date
Increasing speed limits? You're hilarious. The city is in the process of reducing speed limits on just about every roadway in the city. 60 is 50, 50 is 40, 40 is 30 etc. Then they install hundreds of photo radar cameras. It's a bad idea to tear down that section and not have the current unobstructed DVP/Gardiner link. Having cars and trucks stopped in traffic for an extra 5-10 minutes a day also creates unnecessary C02 emissions. Cars actually emit more carbon per km while idling and in stop and go traffic than they do when cruising at 50-75 km/h. But I guess that doesn't concern the likes of Chow.
When I say this they mean it lowers the ability to produce high quality high rise condos. The condos that were built against the gardener already are complaining about the noise of the Gardiner and how it destroy ed there view... Despite buying units knowing full well They were buying 1Correctly in view of the gardener.I am continually baffled by the statement that "the Gardiner divides/separates/blocks the lake from the rest of the city".
First, let's consider it in practical, pedestrian terms.
How can an elevated roadway do anything but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake? There are already crosswalks at the Lakeshore Blvd intersections that allow crossing... that would only get busier with more cars using this 'Grand Boulevard'. And this 'Grand Boulevard' would necessarily have to be many lanes wider to accommodate any increased traffic.
So now pedestrians would have to cross maybe double the number of lanes of traffic, and also have less frequent and shorter signals so as to accommodate so much more vehicle traffic.
Maybe I am missing something but it seems that a bigger, wider, busier 'Grand Boulvard' on the surface, would result in drastically increased blocking of ready access to the lake.
Second. Visually? An eyesore that blocks the beautiful vista of Lake Ontario?
C'mon. Like anyone's view north of the Gardiner is obstructed by the Gardiner?!?! lol. Unless you live below the 4th floor of a CityPlace condo, the Gardiner blocks nothing.
And if the Gardiner is torn down, the only thing that it will free up the view of is the condos to the south of the Gardiner.
The City has a major policy decision to make. Are they going to try to try to close off motor vehicle traffic to the downtown and Harbourfront area? Will they consider the effects of deliveries, people that simply can't use transit because they are coming from areas not effectively served by transit or they are carrying things like tools to fix people's appliances or bring home goods from shopping?
My solution would be similar to what London did. Effectively create a congestion fee by charging a toll to use the (rebuilt) Gardiner and the DVP. And before anyone starts whining about their 'rights'... there is no 'right' to drive your car for free wherever you want. And gas taxes are already a sham scam that disappear into Federal, Provincial and Municipal general funds... with zero accountability as to where the funds get spent. Especially none showing they are spent on roads etc.
Issue bonds to fund an improved Gardiner/Lakeshore and DVP that you have to pay a reasonable toll to use and then pass a law to guarantee that the assets do not get sold off (like the 407) and that the return on investment and repayment of debt is reasonable for the class of municipal bond investment. Say 5-6%?
In other words, the tolls would pay for the roads and maybe reduce the overall vehicular traffic coming into the city.
Just a thought.
The other reason is its a lie to further other agendas.
Put a tool on the gardener and it would Generate huge amounts of revenue and could even be expanded Reducing congestion. The best version of the Gardiner reefer even has a park above it Which is the cheapest long-term Since the park would reduce water damage. And it would also be an expansion of the park system reduction of carbon footprint And give more green space for people to play downtown.
3 minutes is an average. 8 pm to 8:00 AM traffic will hardly be reduced at all. Sure he might add 30 minutes to an hour some of the time but that won't happen that often only rush hour.
Don't forget to deal with the first barrier between front and the lake, which is the train tracks. They aren't going anywhere fast.
I believe the studies apply to people trying to get downtown, and assumes they will get off the gardiner and DVP and take other routes into the core. They don't account for traffic traversing across the city via the gardiner to DVP or vice versa. The people writing those studies hope that traffic fucks off and goes somewhere else to cross the city.
This explains why people who actually use the road do not believe the 3 minute estimate.
Tearing down a perfectly good highway that carries traffic through downtown and replace it with a local street with bazillion traffic lights, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard, Josh Matlow is an asshole for suggesting it.
Remember the "Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration" in Etobicoke, they demolished two bridges on Kipling Ave to "relieve gridlock", and now the Dundas & Kipling intersection is more congested than ever during rush hour. These so-called city planners don't care if you're stuck in traffic for 5 more minutes at one intersection, they want the road more friendly to cyclists and pedestrians, those poor fucks.
As for the "divide the lake from the rest of the city" comment, if you can't make enough money to live in a condo right beside the lake, don't complain. If these people really loved the lake that much, throw them into lake and don't let them come out.
Remember the "Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration" in Etobicoke, they demolished two bridges on Kipling Ave to "relieve gridlock", and now the Dundas & Kipling intersection is more congested than ever during rush hour. These so-called city planners don't care if you're stuck in traffic for 5 more minutes at one intersection, they want the road more friendly to cyclists and pedestrians, those poor fucks.
As for the "divide the lake from the rest of the city" comment, if you can't make enough money to live in a condo right beside the lake, don't complain. If these people really loved the lake that much, throw them into lake and don't let them come out.
Listen, if you believe any traffic study done by a consulting engineering firm, I have some bad news for you.
Consulting engineering firms will say whatever their client wants them to say.
If the City had wanted to say that tearing down the Gardiner would add 2 hours to your trip, an engineer would say it. They all use computer models which are easily manipulated by skewing input data in order to give the desired result. A highschool kid could do it.
You want to see what tearing down the Gardiner will do? Just check out the absolute grid lock when they close the thing for maintance once a year on a weekend yet. You can't drive on those days and the subway is packed.
It's really simple, consultants depend on that revenue like any other business. You give the client what they want, how they want and you wil be considered for the next contract, maybe even be a preferred provider. But if you don't, well, you just got your ass blackballed. Just check out how long it takes to get on the Gardiner now when you're coming from the beaches. Used to be a snap, the ramp was right there at Logan. Now, you need to drive under the expreesway to Jarvis and it will easily take you an hour.
Olivia Chow is about as sharp as a bowling ball.
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Lastly, because I have to go, I will be brief:
1: The City of Toronto just spent 500 million dollars reconstructing and rehabilitating the eastern portion of the Gardiner Expressway. Tearing it down throws all that money down drain and you look like a bunch of fools.
2. It will cost far more to tear the thing down than to complete its reconstruction. First there is the cost of tearing it down, second there is the cost of building an at grade road and most hugely, there is the cost of relocating a jungle of utilities. Sewers, trunk sewers, force mains (pumped sewers), watermains everywhere, storm water sewers, communication plant (Rogers, Bell, Telus, and a bunch you're never even heard of), gas mains, tunnels, substations, hydro, utiitis services. It will all need to be redesigned and reconstructed. If you've read anything to do with the Eglinton LRT Construction, you'd know that just coping with all the utilities was THEE worst part of the job. It cost billions of dollars and has been just a shit show.
3. Then there's the cost of building the fucking road itself.
It will be an absolute NIGHTMARE for 20 years and you will be left with a city in tatters.
The 905 belt, and trust me on this, is just rubbing its hands together right now in anticipation of all the companies that will simply flee Toronto stemming from the election of Olivia Chow and her no-brain ideas which will just strangle the City of Toronto. You want to see Toronto's future? Just go to Allan Gardens, Moss Park, or any other number of tent cities springing up like weeds. That's what we are in for.
1: The City of Toronto just spent 500 million dollars reconstructing and rehabilitating the eastern portion of the Gardiner Expressway. Tearing it down throws all that money down drain and you look like a bunch of fools.
2. It will cost far more to tear the thing down than to complete its reconstruction. First there is the cost of tearing it down, second there is the cost of building an at grade road and most hugely, there is the cost of relocating a jungle of utilities. Sewers, trunk sewers, force mains (pumped sewers), watermains everywhere, storm water sewers, communication plant (Rogers, Bell, Telus, and a bunch you're never even heard of), gas mains, tunnels, substations, hydro, utiitis services. It will all need to be redesigned and reconstructed. If you've read anything to do with the Eglinton LRT Construction, you'd know that just coping with all the utilities was THEE worst part of the job. It cost billions of dollars and has been just a shit show.
3. Then there's the cost of building the fucking road itself.
It will be an absolute NIGHTMARE for 20 years and you will be left with a city in tatters.
The 905 belt, and trust me on this, is just rubbing its hands together right now in anticipation of all the companies that will simply flee Toronto stemming from the election of Olivia Chow and her no-brain ideas which will just strangle the City of Toronto. You want to see Toronto's future? Just go to Allan Gardens, Moss Park, or any other number of tent cities springing up like weeds. That's what we are in for.
Well said. Chow's solution is to build a ramp down from the Gardiner to the Lakeshore, install a couple traffic lights then have it reconnect to the DVP. For what purpose? To slow the flow of traffic? Because that's the only thing it's going to do. It's a moronic idea that will end up costing even more money and make traffic worse. Brilliant plan!
^^^^^^
Let's stop the bullshit.
Unfounded, uninformed myth, fear and loathing versus facts:
Myth: Removing the Gardiner East will result in traffic chaos and gridlock. | Waterfront Toronto (waterfrontoronto.ca)
Waterfront Toronto (incorporated as the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Corporation) is an organization that oversees revitalization projects along the Toronto waterfront. Established in 2001 as a public–public partnership between the City of Toronto, Province of Ontario and Government of Canada.
No wonder Toronto has gone to the dogs over the last 13 years when myth trumped facts.
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^^^^^^^^
More unfounded, uninformed myth, fear and loathing.
Let's stick to the facts:
Myth: Removing the Gardiner East will result in traffic chaos and gridlock. | Waterfront Toronto (waterfrontoronto.ca)
Gardiner East Environmental Assessment | Waterfront Toronto (waterfrontoronto.ca)
Waterfront Toronto (incorporated as the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Corporation) is an organization that oversees revitalization projects along the Toronto waterfront. Established in 2001 as a public–public partnership between the City of Toronto, Province of Ontario and Government of Canada
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Wow! This looks pretty without the ugly crumbling highway. Don't worry "folks", Ford has your back he will build more highways north of the city.
No, no, no .... look how unhappy the pedestrians are when access to the lake is pretty well free of the Great Wall of the Gardiner.Wow! This looks pretty without the ugly crumbling highway.
It's a hellscape.
No, no, no, They want Chow to keep the Gardiner and maintain a crumbling highway and "RAISE TAXES" to do so. How can a crumbling highway be a revenue source to the city? Toll booths? I'm sure every driver loves that.
No, no, no .... you don't understand. Those bridges would be used by pedestrians to wage their "war on the car" from strategic higher ground. Can't you see that? It's obvious.
The key here is to think "urban warfare against the car". You know, spitting, balloons filled with pee-pee, mooning vehicle drivers ..... anything and everything to to impede the God-given right of motorists to move as free as the wind on tar.
Gee, I didn't know Olivia Chow had a degree in Civil Engineering.Well said. Chow's solution is to build a ramp down from the Gardiner to the Lakeshore, install a couple traffic lights then have it reconnect to the DVP. For what purpose? To slow the flow of traffic? Because that's the only thing it's going to do. It's a moronic idea that will end up costing even more money and make traffic worse. Brilliant plan!
I must have missed the, "I hired a guy to build my basement, so now I know how to design transportation infrasture" speech
Toronto is in for a very rough ride with this woman. Life altering even.
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Buddy, I've forgotten more about transportation infrastructure engineering and design than you'll ever know and with that comes the reality of political empire building and any number of reports prepared by MBAs who know shit when it comes to tar.
If you think I will believe any report commissioned by Waterfront Toronto or any other such idiotic organisation, you haven't been paying attention. It's all poltically driven.
Wow! This looks pretty without the ugly crumbling highway. Don't worry "folks", Ford has your back he will build more highways north of the city.
Where's the railway embankment in your artist's rendering? You know, that big earthen embankment that carries fourteen (14) railway tracks that parallels front street? I'm looking north in that rendering. I don't see it.
Those renderings are a fucking joke. I count 4 cars and one bus. The only thing missing in this bullshit is the Parisian cafe scenes from 1885.
Bunch of catatonic zombies believing such fucking nonsense.
Here, might as well work this in.
