The Gardiner Expressway

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
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I'm not the only one who thinks tearing down the eastern Gardiner Expressway and not rebuild it is a bad idea. Forcing the traffic from the DVP, Gardiner and the Lakeshore onto a boulevard with a traffic light would be a nightmare. In fact, city council rejected the idea in May and critics say it would be unworkable. Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to have all the traffic on the DVP and Gardiner join the traffic on the Lakeshore and have it all come to a stop, is clearly in favour of traffic congestion and increased pollution from all the idling cars.


Chow promises gridlock at City Hall over tearing down Gardiner

Olivia Chow remains committed to tearing down the eastern Gardiner Expressway, even though Toronto council just voted to move ahead with the reconstruction project.

Chow made her views known while speaking to reporters on Tuesday at her first news conference since winning Monday’s election.

Anyone who thought she would back away from the controversial promise should think again.

“Do we not want to save some money to make sure some of the money can be used in fixing the TTC, fixing potholes, any number of things?” Chow asked.

The city’s plan is to tear down the portion of the Gardiner — from Cherry St. to the Don Valley Parkway — in 2026 due to its poor state of repair. That section is then to be rebuilt and realigned to open up land below for affordable housing.

Chow wants the highway to come down and stay down. Her vision is for an urban boulevard, a plan that city council rejected at its meeting in May and that critics say would be unworkable.

Councillor Josh Matlow, who came in fifth place in Monday’s mayoral byelection, moved a motion that council debated and voted on at the May 10 meeting. By a vote of 15-10, council rejected Matlow’s call for pausing the work on the Gardiner and beginning a new study on other options.

Other motions on the Gardiner calling for Chow’s preferred boulevard rebuild were also rejected. In fact, this idea has been rejected at several votes going back nearly a decade and the NDP wing of council, now with a member in the mayor’s office, keeps bringing it up.

Chow argued on Tuesday that since that section of the highway is coming down, it should just stay down. She claims it would cost more than $1 billion to take the stretch of expressway down and rebuild it, but says much of that money could be saved with her plan.

There are so many problems with her plan, though.

First off, if the city decided to change to Chow’s preferred vision, there would need to be a new environmental assessment since the one currently in place is for a raised highway, not a grand urban boulevard. Under an expedited process, that would delay any work by at least two years, but under the normal process, it could take five years.

Chow argues that it’s less than a kilometre of raised roadway coming down which means less than a kilometre of her urban boulevard. But the boulevard would need to connect to two other highways, which means ramping down and then ramping back up again.

Some who have studied this proposal have said there would also likely need to be a stop light in the middle of the boulevard as well.

Can you imagine the traffic chaos that would create?

The DVP is already known as the Don Valley Parking lot for a reason, and this would just make things worse. Sure, the Gardiner is big and ugly, it does create a divide in the city, but so would a boulevard needed to handle the traffic of Lakeshore and the Gardiner all rolled into one.

Of course, that assumes that the proposed roadway would be constructed to handle that much traffic. We know that the NDP wing of council doesn’t like cars, doesn’t like drivers and has declared a war on the car.

So, too, has Progress Toronto — the activist group that helped get Chow elected and whose executive director acted as Chow’s campaign manager. This is a group pushing for a dramatic increase in bike lanes across the city, believes in transit over cars in every instance, and which now has the mayor’s ear.

When she arrived at City Hall Tuesday, she spoke of listening, learning and co-operation. She also made clear she will push her agenda even when it’s been rejected by the city time and again.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...dlock-at-city-hall-over-tearing-down-gardiner
 

Hands95

Active member
Mar 7, 2013
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Totally bad idea. You can't just remove sections of highway and expect a 'highway'' to function. I think they should plan a trial. Setup temporary stop lights to mimic what they suggest. Then see how fast people come around in their thinking. Those that can rationally think, of course.
 
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GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,781
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Totally bad idea. You can't just remove sections of highway and expect a 'highway'' to function. I think they should plan a trial. Setup temporary stop lights to mimic what they suggest. Then see how fast people come around in their thinking. Those that can rationally think, of course.
They actually run that trial on a regular basis. It's called block just one lane on the DVP or Gardiner and watch the traffic back up for several kms. It's a moronic idea and just what I expected from Chow.
 
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SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
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I am continually baffled by the statement that "the Gardiner divides/separates/blocks the lake from the rest of the city".

First, let's consider it in practical, pedestrian terms.

How can an elevated roadway do anything but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake? There are already crosswalks at the Lakeshore Blvd intersections that allow crossing... that would only get busier with more cars using this 'Grand Boulevard'. And this 'Grand Boulevard' would necessarily have to be many lanes wider to accommodate any increased traffic.

So now pedestrians would have to cross maybe double the number of lanes of traffic, and also have less frequent and shorter signals so as to accommodate so much more vehicle traffic.

Maybe I am missing something but it seems that a bigger, wider, busier 'Grand Boulvard' on the surface, would result in drastically increased blocking of ready access to the lake.


Second. Visually? An eyesore that blocks the beautiful vista of Lake Ontario?

C'mon. Like anyone's view north of the Gardiner is obstructed by the Gardiner?!?! lol. Unless you live below the 4th floor of a CityPlace condo, the Gardiner blocks nothing.

And if the Gardiner is torn down, the only thing that it will free up the view of is the condos to the south of the Gardiner.



The City has a major policy decision to make. Are they going to try to try to close off motor vehicle traffic to the downtown and Harbourfront area? Will they consider the effects of deliveries, people that simply can't use transit because they are coming from areas not effectively served by transit or they are carrying things like tools to fix people's appliances or bring home goods from shopping?


My solution would be similar to what London did. Effectively create a congestion fee by charging a toll to use the (rebuilt) Gardiner and the DVP. And before anyone starts whining about their 'rights'... there is no 'right' to drive your car for free wherever you want. And gas taxes are already a sham scam that disappear into Federal, Provincial and Municipal general funds... with zero accountability as to where the funds get spent. Especially none showing they are spent on roads etc.

Issue bonds to fund an improved Gardiner/Lakeshore and DVP that you have to pay a reasonable toll to use and then pass a law to guarantee that the assets do not get sold off (like the 407) and that the return on investment and repayment of debt is reasonable for the class of municipal bond investment. Say 5-6%? 🤷‍♂️

In other words, the tolls would pay for the roads and maybe reduce the overall vehicular traffic coming into the city.

Just a thought.
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,781
2,714
113
I am continually baffled by the statement that "the Gardiner divides/separates/blocks the lake from the rest of the city".

First, let's consider it in practical, pedestrian terms.

How can an elevated roadway do anything but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake? There are already crosswalks at the Lakeshore Blvd intersections that allow crossing... that would only get busier with more cars using this 'Grand Boulevard'. And this 'Grand Boulevard' would necessarily have to be many lanes wider to accommodate any increased traffic.

So now pedestrians would have to cross maybe double the number of lanes of traffic, and also have less frequent and shorter signals so as to accommodate so much more vehicle traffic.

Maybe I am missing something but it seems that a bigger, wider, busier 'Grand Boulvard' on the surface, would result in drastically increased blocking of ready access to the lake.


Second. Visually? An eyesore that blocks the beautiful vista of Lake Ontario?

C'mon. Like anyone's view north of the Gardiner is obstructed by the Gardiner?!?! lol. Unless you live below the 4th floor of a CityPlace condo, the Gardiner blocks nothing.

And if the Gardiner is torn down, the only thing that it will free up the view of is the condos to the south of the Gardiner.



The City has a major policy decision to make. Are they going to try to try to close off motor vehicle traffic to the downtown and Harbourfront area? Will they consider the effects of deliveries, people that simply can't use transit because they are coming from areas not effectively served by transit or they are carrying things like tools to fix people's appliances or bring home goods from shopping?


My solution would be similar to what London did. Effectively create a congestion fee by charging a toll to use the (rebuilt) Gardiner and the DVP. And before anyone starts whining about their 'rights'... there is no 'right' to drive your car for free wherever you want. And gas taxes are already a sham scam that disappear into Federal, Provincial and Municipal general funds... with zero accountability as to where the funds get spent. Especially none showing they are spent on roads etc.

Issue bonds to fund an improved Gardiner/Lakeshore and DVP that you have to pay a reasonable toll to use and then pass a law to guarantee that the assets do not get sold off (like the 407) and that the return on investment and repayment of debt is reasonable for the class of municipal bond investment. Say 5-6%? 🤷‍♂️

In other words, the tolls would pay for the roads and maybe reduce the overall vehicular traffic coming into the city.

Just a thought.
Who do you think you are, taking a reasonable, logical approach to solving a problem. I'm sure people like Chow hates your kind as you make no sense whatsoever. lol

While I'm not a fan of tolls, you make a good argument for them on the DVP/Gardiner. The only problem I can see with them, is they could push a lot of traffic onto side streets. Namely Leslie, Don Mills, Victoria Park etc.

I would also be all for road tolls if they did what they've done in parts of NY state. Once the projects are paid for, they remove the tolls. They also don't charge anything close to what the 407 does.


I remember reading somewhere that tearing it down and building a boulevard will only increase time in traffic by 3 minutes. If that is the case, may be it is not such a bad idea to do so, and use the money saved for other things, especially affordable housing.
I'm not convinced of that. Plus, SchlongConery makes some very good points as to why a wide boulevard would make things worse for both pedestrians and traffic.
 
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mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
76,533
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It will completely gridlock the city and also gridlock the 401 even further. Not only does the DVP / Gardiner link feed the downtown - suburbs traffic, but it also connects Scarborough, Markham and Durham to Mississauga and the QEW.

I cannot believe how stupid Chow is.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
76,533
88,128
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I remember reading somewhere that tearing it down and building a boulevard will only increase time in traffic by 3 minutes. If that is the case, may be it is not such a bad idea to do so, and use the money saved for other things, especially affordable housing.
I drive that stretch of the Gardiner each day and there is no fucking way in hell that the tear-down wouldn't create hour-long traffic backups.

The idea is fucked. It's the dream of people who live downtown and bicycle to work, not ordinary joes and janes who need to travel to get to and from their jobs.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
76,533
88,128
113
I'm not the only one who thinks tearing down the eastern Gardiner Expressway and not rebuild it is a bad idea. Forcing the traffic from the DVP, Gardiner and the Lakeshore onto a boulevard with a traffic light would be a nightmare. In fact, city council rejected the idea in May and critics say it would be unworkable. Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to have all the traffic on the DVP and Gardiner join the traffic on the Lakeshore and have it all come to a stop, is clearly in favour of traffic congestion and increased pollution from all the idling cars.


Chow promises gridlock at City Hall over tearing down Gardiner

Olivia Chow remains committed to tearing down the eastern Gardiner Expressway, even though Toronto council just voted to move ahead with the reconstruction project.

Chow made her views known while speaking to reporters on Tuesday at her first news conference since winning Monday’s election.

Anyone who thought she would back away from the controversial promise should think again.

“Do we not want to save some money to make sure some of the money can be used in fixing the TTC, fixing potholes, any number of things?” Chow asked.

The city’s plan is to tear down the portion of the Gardiner — from Cherry St. to the Don Valley Parkway — in 2026 due to its poor state of repair. That section is then to be rebuilt and realigned to open up land below for affordable housing.

Chow wants the highway to come down and stay down. Her vision is for an urban boulevard, a plan that city council rejected at its meeting in May and that critics say would be unworkable.

Councillor Josh Matlow, who came in fifth place in Monday’s mayoral byelection, moved a motion that council debated and voted on at the May 10 meeting. By a vote of 15-10, council rejected Matlow’s call for pausing the work on the Gardiner and beginning a new study on other options.

Other motions on the Gardiner calling for Chow’s preferred boulevard rebuild were also rejected. In fact, this idea has been rejected at several votes going back nearly a decade and the NDP wing of council, now with a member in the mayor’s office, keeps bringing it up.

Chow argued on Tuesday that since that section of the highway is coming down, it should just stay down. She claims it would cost more than $1 billion to take the stretch of expressway down and rebuild it, but says much of that money could be saved with her plan.

There are so many problems with her plan, though.

First off, if the city decided to change to Chow’s preferred vision, there would need to be a new environmental assessment since the one currently in place is for a raised highway, not a grand urban boulevard. Under an expedited process, that would delay any work by at least two years, but under the normal process, it could take five years.

Chow argues that it’s less than a kilometre of raised roadway coming down which means less than a kilometre of her urban boulevard. But the boulevard would need to connect to two other highways, which means ramping down and then ramping back up again.

Some who have studied this proposal have said there would also likely need to be a stop light in the middle of the boulevard as well.

Can you imagine the traffic chaos that would create?

The DVP is already known as the Don Valley Parking lot for a reason, and this would just make things worse. Sure, the Gardiner is big and ugly, it does create a divide in the city, but so would a boulevard needed to handle the traffic of Lakeshore and the Gardiner all rolled into one.

Of course, that assumes that the proposed roadway would be constructed to handle that much traffic. We know that the NDP wing of council doesn’t like cars, doesn’t like drivers and has declared a war on the car.

So, too, has Progress Toronto — the activist group that helped get Chow elected and whose executive director acted as Chow’s campaign manager. This is a group pushing for a dramatic increase in bike lanes across the city, believes in transit over cars in every instance, and which now has the mayor’s ear.

When she arrived at City Hall Tuesday, she spoke of listening, learning and co-operation. She also made clear she will push her agenda even when it’s been rejected by the city time and again.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...dlock-at-city-hall-over-tearing-down-gardiner
A boulevard would create a divide. And ffs!!! the massive railway corridor already creates a huge divide.

Unless you tear up the rail link and turn it into a massive bikelane and then make Union station into a skateboard venue, you live with the divide.
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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I remember reading somewhere that tearing it down and building a boulevard will only increase time in traffic by 3 minutes. If that is the case, may be it is not such a bad idea to do so, and use the money saved for other things, especially affordable housing.
You are correct sir.

So, what we got here, is failure to communicate.

Basically $2billion+ to move a 1km section of the eastern edge of the Gardiner a few feet to the north that would save the average Joe commuter 3 minutes in drive time during rush hour as opposed to the knock her down/grand boulevard option.

The grand antithesis to refrain of "value for money".
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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It will completely gridlock the city and also gridlock the 401 even further. Not only does the DVP / Gardiner link feed the downtown - suburbs traffic, but it also connects Scarborough, Markham and Durham to Mississauga and the QEW.

I cannot believe how stupid Chow is.
You think the present plan to tear it down and move it over it a bit won't result in longer gridlock with longer construction period?
How long do you think it'll take jc or Metrolinx to build it, after he finishes the Eglinton tunnel?
Is that worth 14% of the city's entire 10 year capital plan budget?

 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
10,929
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I am continually baffled by the statement that "the Gardiner divides/separates/blocks the lake from the rest of the city".

First, let's consider it in practical, pedestrian terms.

How can an elevated roadway do anything but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake?

Just a thought.
gard.PNG gard1.PNG gard2.PNG gard3.PNG gard5.PNG gard4.PNG

Just a more cogent thought.

Does it really look like the Gardiner doesn't divide/separate/block the lake from the rest of the city?

Does it really look like an elevated roadway can do anything but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake?

An impediment, a fortress, a buttress, a great wall of concrete and steel is what it appears to be, an impenetrable impediment to pedestrian access to the lake and a unmitigated eyesore for the ages.

You can put all the lipstick you want on a pig, but in the end, all you really have, is still a pig.
 
Last edited:

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
10,929
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My solution would be similar to what London did. Effectively create a congestion fee by charging a toll to use the (rebuilt) Gardiner and the DVP. And before anyone starts whining about their 'rights'... there is no 'right' to drive your car for free wherever you want. And gas taxes are already a sham scam that disappear into Federal, Provincial and Municipal general funds... with zero accountability as to where the funds get spent. Especially none showing they are spent on roads etc.

Issue bonds to fund an improved Gardiner/Lakeshore and DVP that you have to pay a reasonable toll to use and then pass a law to guarantee that the assets do not get sold off (like the 407) and that the return on investment and repayment of debt is reasonable for the class of municipal bond investment. Say 5-6%? 🤷‍♂️

In other words, the tolls would pay for the roads and maybe reduce the overall vehicular traffic coming into the city.

Just a thought.
Your solution is a definite 100% "never, ever in my lifetime" NO GO RED LINE for Doug Ford.

The City of Toronto asked the province to grant them the right to impose "road tolls" before and the Liberal Premier, "lefty latte-sipping, bike riding, car-hating" Kathleen Wynee at the time said, "NO way Jose."
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
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View attachment 242728 View attachment 242729 View attachment 242730 View attachment 242731 View attachment 242733 View attachment 242734

Just a more cogent thought.

Does it really look like the Gardiner doesn't divide/separate/block the lake from the rest of the city?

Does it really look like an elevated roadway can do anytrhing but make it easier for pedestrians to access the lake?
Your first picture, I believe, is not of the Gardiner bordering the lake. I believe the water you see is a commercial inlet north of Cherry Beach (where the Gardiner comes closest to water, apart from where it crosses the Humber in the west). No pedestrian is trying to access that commercial inlet. Pedestrians do go to Cherry beach, but there are lights with crosswalks crossing the Lakeshore and a sidewalk to to take them there. There's also a TTC bus (202) and parking for those who drive. The Gardiner is in no one's way. Or do you wish you had a better view of that stagnant industrial inlet from your chicken coop?

I'm not sure exactly where all the other pictures have been taken, but there are plenty of streets crossing the Lakeshore from east to west (one of your pictures even shows a jolly group of pedestrians on their way), with crosswalks and crossing signals. Are you suggesting there would be even more opportunities to cross the Lakeshore if it was several lanes wider? That defies logic. There would be likely fewer pedestrian crossing points.
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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Your first picture, I believe, is not of the Gardiner bordering the lake. I believe the water you see is a commercial inlet north of Cherry Beach (where the Gardiner comes closest to water, apart from where it crosses the Humber in the west). No pedestrian is trying to access that commercial inlet. Pedestrians do go to Cherry beach, but there are lights with crosswalks crossing the Lakeshore and a sidewalk to to take them there. There's also a TTC bus (202) and parking for those who drive. The Gardiner is in no one's way. Or do you wish you had a better view of that stagnant industrial inlet from your chicken coop?

I'm not sure exactly where all the other pictures have been taken, but there are plenty of streets crossing the Lakeshore from east to west (one of your pictures even shows a jolly group of pedestrians on their way), with crosswalks and crossing signals. Are you suggesting there would be even more opportunities to cross the Lakeshore if it was several lanes wider? That defies logic. There would be likely fewer pedestrian crossing points.
What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?

F*ck, I can't believe it!
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
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Something must be done
This is something
It must be done.

Political logic.
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
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What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?

F*ck, I can't believe it!
Elect an extraterrestrial, expect "out of this world" ideas!
 
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Soccersweeper

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Apr 24, 2018
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Don't rebuild it. It is only busy during rush hour when traffic doesn't move anyway. The rest of the time it's barely used and will cost way too much money to fix that Toronto doesn't have unles Dougie wants to pay for it. The only other way it should be kept is if it's tolled to make drivers pay for it. The rest of the world is moving away from encouraging cars to come downtown. We should as well. Plus it will open significant prime land for housing and more tax revenue.
 
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GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
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I remember reading somewhere that tearing it down and building a boulevard will only increase time in traffic by 3 minutes. If that is the case, may be it is not such a bad idea to do so, and use the money saved for other things, especially affordable housing.
You are correct sir.

So, what we got here, is failure to communicate.

Basically $2billion+ to move a 1km section of the eastern edge of the Gardiner a few feet to the north that would save the average Joe commuter 3 minutes in drive time during rush hour as opposed to the knock her down/grand boulevard option.

The grand antithesis to refrain of "value for money".
You're forgetting that just last month, council just voted 15-10 to rejected Matlow’s call for pausing the work on the Gardiner and beginning a new study on other options. And I don't believe it will only delay traffic 3 minutes.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/shorter-gardiner-means-longer-commute-study-1.2363223
 
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Soccersweeper

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You're forgetting that just last month, council just voted 15-10 to rejected Matlow’s call for pausing the work on the Gardiner and beginning a new study on other options. And I don't believe it will only delay traffic 3 minutes.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/shorter-gardiner-means-longer-commute-study-1.2363223
You're forgetting that that vote was based on an omission of alternatives and their costs. New mayor, new mandate. Maybe she can use those strong mayor powers to get er done. That would be hilarious as Doug tries to undo his plans to let Tory do any fucking thing he thought of. Doug won't pay for transit? Fine, we don't pay for a road. What's he going to do, make us build it after saying Toronto is fine on its own? Chow should take the money saved and write a big cheque to the TTC
 
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