Its offical : Transphobia is here to stay!

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mandrill

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No.
Watchful waiting is a real thing.

There is a serious and sober debate about how to handle kids questioning their gender identity.

The people who think the existence of trans people is evil and the only good result of someone questioning their gender identity is that they never decide to transition like to misrepresent what that debate looks like, though.
The watchful waiting model
The “watchful waiting” model was designed by the members of the interdisciplinary team at the Amsterdam Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria, VU University Medical Center, under the leadership of Dr Peggy Cohen-Kettenis. Borrowing from the medical use of GnRH agonists for children exhibiting precocious puberty, the Netherlands team is responsible for introducing the use of puberty blockers for gender purposes, to put a pause on pubertal growth and allow more time for a youth to explore their gender and consolidate their adolescent gender identity, with the future possibility of cross-sex hormone therapy to align their bodies with their affirmed gender identity. In contrast to the live in your own skin approach, a young child’s demonstration of gender nonconformity, be it in identity, expressions, or both, is not to be manipulated in any way, but observed over time. If a child’s cross-gender identifications and affirmations are persistent over time, interventions are made available for a child to consolidate a transgender identity, once it is assessed, through therapeutic intervention and psychometric assessment, as in the best interests of the child. These interventions include social transitions (the shift from one gender to another, including possible name change, gender marker change, and gender pronoun changes), puberty blockers, and later hormones and possible gender-affirming surgeries. No attempts are made to alter a child’s gender identity or expressions; yet it is postulated in this model that it would be better to hold off until puberty on any social transitions of a child from one gender to another, and instead give them safe spaces to fully express their gender as they prefer before facilitating any full gender transitions.18,19 The rationale for holding off on any social transitions until adolescence is not to ward off a transgender identity but rather that 1) it would be advantageous that a child experiences the first stages of physical puberty for that child to best make a determination of the gender that feels most authentic to him/her; 2) given developmental stages of childhood, facilitating a social transition from one gender to another at a young age may create a form of cognitive constriction – the child may be prematurely blocked from considering any other possibilities once moved into a cross-gender status and socially constricted from further childhood gender exploration because now they know the cross-gender identity is what everyone has come to expect from them; 3) socially transitioning a child at a very young age may preclude the child from maintaining a realistic understanding of their body and historical status – as a penis-bodied (once a boy) or a vagina-bodied (once a girl) person. In informing their practices, this model, like the live in your own skin model, relies on the data gathered about “persisters” and “desisters”, both at their own clinic in the Netherlands and in other international studies, particularly those conducted at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) gender program in Toronto. In the most recent review of these studies, it was found that 63% of the children seeking services at a gender clinic at a young age, and diagnosed with gender dysphoria, no longer had that diagnosis at puberty, while 37% did have the diagnosis consistently from early childhood to adolescence.20 Since a large majority of gender nonconforming young children seeking services at gender clinics desist in their gender dysphoria by adolescence, best practices would be to wait and see if the child persists into adolescence before making any significant changes in a child’s gender identity.
During the preadolescent waiting period, the children are followed carefully by the clinical team in the watchful waiting model, with the support of outside therapists in the community (which is required before a child can receive medical services), to assure that the children are growing well and getting their emotional needs met, and in preparation for later transitioning and medical interventions if the child proves to be a good candidate. Like in the live in your own skin model, the children going through the program also receive a full battery of psychological tests, documenting not only their gender status but also their cognitive–social–emotional functioning. Some of these instruments are delivered to the children directly, some to their parents or teachers.
If the mother asking for help with her 4-year-old were to attend the Amsterdam clinic with her child, the team might do an assessment and advise that the 4-year-old be followed over time, with the understanding that if her son’s declarations of wanting to be a girl persisted over time and if he continued to be drawn only to “girl” toys and activities, consideration of puberty blockers to buy more time to explore gender could certainly happen later, but for now it would be best to let her son continue to be a son free to explore whatever activities he enjoyed, with no corrections on his expressed desire to be a girl.



As I apprehend "watchful waiting" and the "Dutch model" from the 2 above articles, hormone therapy and gender choice reinforcement are simply delayed to 12 years old. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
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mandrill

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mandrill

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Much has happened, and we are winning spectacularly. I will try to get back to as many of you as I can in the coming days. If you are media and I have missed your message, please send it again. Children are never born in the wrong body!
Mitchy, few doctors agree with you. From what I can see, all professional bodies agree that gender dysphoria is real.

You might as well recite other rightie garbage like "COVID is a hoax created in a lab by George Soros." No reputable doctor believes that.
 

mandrill

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Looks like an insurrection to me that demands hurting children. What a bunch of pieces of shit.
But the medical community doesn't agree with you. You also claimed that the vaccines were a hoax, IIRC.
 

mandrill

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What, that blonde chick/man, with the orange umbrella, was big in size. He took the first punch at Chris.
She / he did. But the assault was provoked by Chris standing there with his sign and creating tension. The assault was minor.

The female cop was dead-on correct that this was Chris's fault.

You can't provoke people like Chris did and expect the cops to protect you from a minor push / shove. The cops aren't going to do it. Chris was there, following trans people around, taunting them and creating tension and filming the reaction. This is a standard rightie pattern of behaviour. Create a crisis by provoking bystanders or authority and when the consequences happen, claim to be a "victim".

You've given several examples of exactly this in the last 2 or 3 days. You're so dense that you don't see the pattern or the strategy.
 

mandrill

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So, Mitchy. Assuming that I agree that medical profit partially drives the transition of children - and I agree that's probably true - what solution do you propose for gender dysphoric early adolescents?

The vast majority of medical associations appear to agree that gender dysphoria is real and therefore should be medically cared for. So what do you propose?
 

canada-man

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mandrill

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What Scott Newgent says. That early adolescents embrace their differences, and when they get older, things will get easier for them. Medically mutilating adolescents, who are highly vulnerable, is not the answer.
Except I don't see anywhere that gender reassignment surgery is performed on adolescents.
 

bver_hunter

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bver_hunter

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Looks like an insurrection to me that demands hurting children. What a bunch of pieces of shit.
Once again this is nothing about "hurting children"!!

It is about preventing this sad statistics among transgenders:


Yes high suicide and attempted suicides among transgenders. You should be thankful that the suicide rates are being addressed, after all how would you keep up with your hobbyist activity otherwise with fewer of these transexual individuals available? 😊
 
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jcpro

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Once again this is nothing about "hurting children"!!

It is about preventing this sad statistics among transgenders:


Yes high suicide and attempted suicides among transgenders. You should be thankful that the suicide rates are being addressed, after all how would you keep up with your hobbyist activity otherwise with fewer of these transexual individuals available? 😊
How are the suicides being addressed, pray tell?
 

bver_hunter

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How are the suicides being addressed, pray tell?
Well if the transphobia in this Thread was a carbon copy of what is taught in schools then expect the suicide rates to be even higher among children who are identifying themselves as transgenders. They should be made to be comfortable with their genders rather than some of the trans bashing in this thread. That transphobic dude is given a hero's status on this Board as well as with the likes of the far right Fox Lies Network!!
 
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jcpro

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Well if the transphobia in this Thread was a carbon copy of what is taught in schools then expect the suicide rates to be even higher among children who are identifying themselves as transgenders. They should be made to be comfortable with their genders rather than some of the trans bashing in this thread. That transphobic dude is given a hero's status on this Board as well as with the likes of the far right Fox Lies Network!!
ROTFLMFAO!!! It has nothing to do with your fear of Fox and everything to do with the age of transition- the younger, the more likely to end up offing/hurting him/her self. You're pulling talking points out of your ass without realizing the harm you're causing. Just stop, take a break and educate yourself. Don't be a party to damaging the most vulnerable among us.
 
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John_Jacob

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Blanchard, Zucker, Littman.

Just sticking to the classics, I see.

... no Marchiano?

So let's see, since you don't bother to link to the studies, I'll provide them:

First:
"One study showed that, without social transition, nearly two-thirds of pre-teen gender-dysphoric males grow up to be gay or bisexual.
A University of Toronto study found that 63.6% of boys with early onset gender dysphoria, who received ‘watchful waiting’ treatment and no pre-pubertal social transition, grew up to be gay or bisexual.
Only 12% of the study participants continued to identify as transfeminine.
This would infer that Watchful Waiting is a FAR, FAR superior model than Affirmation right? "

Singh, D., Bradley, S.J. & Zucker, K.J. (2021). A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder. Frontiers in Psychology

As you can see if you read it, this study doesn't discuss "watchful waiting" at all. It also doesn't compare it to affirmation.
It looked at boys transitioning back in the late 80s and followed up to the early 2000s.

It even acknowledges that at the time, treatment was more focused on convincing children not to transition.

View attachment 223144

So maybe don't oversell it.

Second:

After sex reassignment surgery, one study showed that adult transsexual clients were 4.9 times more likely to have made a suicide attempt and 19.1 times more likely to have died from suicide, after adjusting for prior psychiatric comorbidity
Zucker, K.J., Lawrence, A.A., Kreukels, B.P. (2016). Gender Dysphoria in Adults. Annu Rev Clin Psychol.

This is normally behind a paywall, but (unsurprisingly) you can find the pdf on sites like https://stoptransingkids.wordpress.com/. I found an open Sci-Hub link, though, so people can read it without the markups on the pdf. Those dramatic suicide numbers show up on page 227 (p.11) of the pdf. (You can also find it in the supplemental tables if you really want to follow it up.)

View attachment 223145

As you can see, these numbers come from a study by Dhenje and their colleagues. You will also notice that I pointed out who the controls were in this study - the controls were people who did not suffer from GD. In other words, what this study found was that people who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery were 4.9 times more likely to have made a suicide attempt and 19.1 times more likely to have died from suicide than someone who didn't suffer from gender dysphoria.

So, since this was just a summary and I believe in primary sources, I went to see if I could find the Dhenje 2011 paper and it is right here:
Dhejne, C., Lichtenstein, P., Boman, M., et. al. (2011). Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden, PLoS One.
(PMID: 21364939 / PMCID: PMC3043071 / DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0016885)

It's a longitudinal study, as described. And yes, the controls are correctly described as well - those numbers are in comparison to people matched from the general population.
Their argument is that as a study of general mortality and morbidity, it is reasonable to do that. Of course, this creates a limitation - and it is an important one, as they specify in the discussion.

View attachment 223146

So, you know, it is kind of interesting that you framed it in a way to imply exactly that the treatment was causing the suicides.

Excited for the Littman. Maybe some Bailey? Some Laidlaw?
Finally, somebody with some brains abut the subject and does more than screech, "I'm inclusive".

1680467007644.png
Well....yes! No shit. That is the purpose of clinical treatment for mental illness. The assumption that Affirmation is superior to watchful waiting is odd. It's new and the tide is turning back to Watchful Waiting. Too bad you're on the wrong side of history.

"It even acknowledges that at the time, treatment was more focused on convincing children not to transition."
Of course it was. Given that many desist and/or destransition, this was the proper clinical approach before WPATH went off the deep end.


Now this part that you think is important is HILARIOUS!
"the controls were people who did not suffer from GD. In other words, what this study found was that people who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery <snip> than someone who didn't suffer from gender dysphoria. "
Yes, yes, the didn't have GD but YET THEY HAD UNDERGONE SEX-REASSIGNMENT SURGURY. Really? I guess they thought they were the opposite sex why? Wait, because they were Transsexuals. Huh. AGP right? Let's get bottom surgery for Laughs and giggles?

View attachment 223146
As for this part, yes. The context is that transexuals suffer from Mental Illness at a far, far greater rate that standard population. Thank-you for reiterating my point about the results from Tavistock on the UK.

"So, you know, it is kind of interesting that you framed it in a way to imply exactly that the treatment was causing the suicides."
I did no such thing. Those are your words because you're able to make a cogent argument without straw-manning.

As for Littman, I'm hoping that you'll go on and on about how her ROGD study was withdrawn (yet ignore that it was later accepted with only minor changes). Didn't bite?,


By Bailey, I assume you're referring to Dr. Michael J. Bailey who published a recent paper titled, "Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria: Parent Reports on 1655 Possible Cases"

Quick summary
"Notable findings in line with past studies show that adolescent-onset gender dysphoria disproportionately affects females, with the sample showing 75 percent females versus 25 percent males.
These young people had high rates of coexisting mental health issues, with 42 percent having a formal mental health diagnosis. The parents reported that, on average, the child’s mental health issues had started nearly 4 years before the onset of gender dysphoria. The most common issues were depression, anxiety, self harm, and “difficulty socializing with peers.”
Youth with mental health issues were observed to be far more likely to have socially or medically transitioned, which Bailey and Diaz state “is concerning because youth with mental health issues may be especially likely to lack judgment necessary to make these important, and in the case of medical transition permanent, decisions.”

Huh, who knew social contagion was a thing?
 
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John_Jacob

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Well if the transphobia in this Thread was a carbon copy of what is taught in schools then expect the suicide rates to be even higher among children who are identifying themselves as transgenders. They should be made to be comfortable with their genders rather than some of the trans bashing in this thread. That transphobic dude is given a hero's status on this Board as well as with the likes of the far right Fox Lies Network!!
Ah yes because lets ignore the myriad other mental illnesses these children have and assume their troubles are solely due to the fact that they're transgender ...mainly because it politically aligns with your point of view.
 
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bver_hunter

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ROTFLMFAO!!! It has nothing to do with your fear of Fox and everything to do with the age of transition- the younger, the more likely to end up offing/hurting him/her self. You're pulling talking points out of your ass without realizing the harm you're causing. Just stop, take a break and educate yourself. Don't be a party to damaging the most vulnerable among us.
You are just posting all the BS from the far right and Fundamental websites that have a hatred for the existence of these individuals. The respectable sources want these transgender children to be more inclusive in their classes rather than mocked and teased in schools. Coming from a hypocrite like you who visits these transgender for your hobbyist activities and then throwing your support behind those who are vilifying them in this thread is really awful!!
 
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