Covid-19 most likely came from a lab leak,,,,,,,,,duh

[Valcazar]

I wonder whether the FBI has some other information based on informants from China that the Chinese were up to something in that lab? It would be the kind of intelligence that scientists would not be able to detect in their research; more like a police investigation?

That is probably the strongest evidence I could see the FBI being in specific possession of.
The satellite idea doesn't sound very persuasive to me and the FBI is pretty famously bad at its biological analysis (remember Amerithrax?).

But as a law enforcement agency, having informants who are giving them testimony about something specific would definitely be something they would have that outside researchers wouldn't.
All you need is a couple of them who aren't really all that trustworthy and you can get to "moderate confidence". They would have good reason to believe it, but the informant isn't unassailable and they don't have a way to confirm it. That would fit right in line.

Of course, they aren't telling us what they do have, so that's just wild speculation. But it is a guess that actually sounds pretty reasonable as a possibility.

 

[Valcazar]

Other than proof, what else could it be??

Evidence.
Data.

That doesn't amount to "proof".

 

[Valcazar]

I don't know. I don't think of myself as an ideologue because to simply put it I don't agree with all the things the Republican party advocates.

That just means your ideology isn't identical to theirs.

Or, more narrowly, you may broadly share an ideology, but you aren't rabidly partisan so just because they choose to do something doesn't mean you agree.

I think limiting government is better than an ever expanding government, but I see the need for certain social welfare including universal healthcare. As a Republican, do I think we need a bloated government with hundreds of agencies? Of course not. (I can't be the only one in this thread here left or right wondering why does the U.S. have so many intelligence agencies.)

Right. All of that is an ideology.
It just isn't the same one as the current GOP.

 

[Valcazar]

That's great, but "evidence" is a strong word. I'm still standing by satellite photos of Wuhan area hospitals could be the key to the answer. I don't think I've heard this from another source. I just know the U.S. had knowledge that something was odd at the Wuhan hospitals from satellite imagery in late 2019/early 2020.

You are going to have to show me where this whole line of reasoning comes from.

Evidence is a much weaker word than "proof".

Everything is evidence.
You can argue about whether you think it is convincing evidence or not, but it is evidence.

 

[Valcazar]

I am kind of used to these what, where, how questions from you. The Vinnie Barbarino maneuver.

Let me flip it back. How did the government fairly represent the information? And how did much of the media fairly represented the information in 2020 as well?

Well, Trump (who was the government) said it was a lab leak (sometimes, sometimes he said other things).

The medical establishment said it was most likely zoonotic transfer and that arguments that it was engineered were bad.
This has been borne out to the point where even lab leak enthusiasts claim they just mean a sample that escaped and not an engineered virus.

So I'm not seeing misrepresentation here.

 

[PeteOsborne]

Evidence.
Data.

That doesn't amount to "proof".

Solid proof.
FBI has all three of Hunter Bidens laptops, on one of them must be the file containing how the CIA paid Hunter Biden through money laundring in the Ukraine to finance Ukrainian biolabs, under the supervision of DR. Fauci, to produce covid19, which was then released into an avian bound for Moscow but due to changing winds due to climate change it was blown off course and shit on and infect a scientist from the lab in Wuhan, you know, the one that ended up in the hospital. All an accident.

 

[PeteOsborne]

Well, Trump (who was the government) said it was a lab leak (sometimes, sometimes he said other things).

The medical establishment said it was most likely zoonotic transfer and that arguments that it was engineered were bad.
This has been borne out to the point where even lab leak enthusiasts claim they just mean a sample that escaped and not an engineered virus.

So I'm not seeing misrepresentation here.

It seemed like he lied so often or said misleading things, it got to the point where anything he said was deemed to be untrue or opposite of what were the actual facts.

 

[Valcazar]

It's simple. The lab and the wet market are far enough apart in a major city that there would be different hospitals servicing the area around them.

This is an interesting article which also mentions internet traffic. The FBI (and the CIA) do not want to tip their hand on how much information they can collect and analyze from inside China.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/health/satellite-pics-coronavirus-spread/index.html

This is mid 2020 and that pre-print doesn't seem to exist anymore. (I don't know if that means it got published or if it got withdrawn.)

The study itself shows a bunch of hospitals around Wuhan showed increased activity.
Some are near the lab, some are near the market. (It seems more hopsitals in general are near the lab because that's the university/research section and since they only looked at the major hospitals, there are more there.)

So again -- this isn't very convincing of much. If anything it was an argument 3 years ago that maybe COVID started earlier than people thought. I haven't seen that still argued much, so that doesn't seem to have borne out. Other than that, it just shows that more cars were in the hospitals, and doesn't narrow it down to the WIV lab (which would contradict the new DOE theory anyway, since they are arguing for a different lab).

But sure - more detailed work like this with good numbers and something more solid showing a cluster at the nearest hospital to the lab would be suggestive.

 

[Valcazar]

Solid proof.
FBI has all three of Hunter Bidens laptops, on one of them must be the file containing how the CIA paid Hunter Biden through money laundring in the Ukraine to finance Ukrainian biolabs, under the supervision of DR. Fauci, to produce covid19, which was then released into an avian bound for Moscow but due to changing winds due to climate change it was blown off course and shit on and infect a scientist from the lab in Wuhan, you know, the one that ended up in the hospital. All an accident.

Sounds legit.

 

[WyattEarp]

That just means your ideology isn't identical to theirs.

Or, more narrowly, you may broadly share an ideology, but you aren't rabidly partisan so just because they choose to do something doesn't mean you agree.



Right. All of that is an ideology.
It just isn't the same one as the current GOP.

Any beliefs could constitute an ideology. An ideologue is something different.

noun
noun: ideologue; plural noun: ideologues

1. an adherent of an ideology, especially one who is uncompromising and dogmatic.
   "he doesn't consider himself a political ideologue, preferring to arrive at conclusions pragmatically"

 

[WyattEarp]

It seemed like he lied so often or said misleading things, it got to the point where anything he said was deemed to be untrue or opposite of what were the actual facts.

If you watched CNN and MSNBC there was always a great deal of effort put into contradicting Trump. I agree he said stupid things, but I felt the liberal media was uncooperative and misrepresenting certain things to score points against him. It was very unproductive.

If you read some of the things right here in this thread including some of the things posted by liberal members, it's a good discussion. I think most of these things could have been discussed in 2020, but I don't think the liberal media was interested in that discussion.

 

[WyattEarp]

This is mid 2020 and that pre-print doesn't seem to exist anymore. (I don't know if that means it got published or if it got withdrawn.)

The study itself shows a bunch of hospitals around Wuhan showed increased activity.
Some are near the lab, some are near the market. (It seems more hopsitals in general are near the lab because that's the university/research section and since they only looked at the major hospitals, there are more there.)

So again -- this isn't very convincing of much. If anything it was an argument 3 years ago that maybe COVID started earlier than people thought. I haven't seen that still argued much, so that doesn't seem to have borne out. Other than that, it just shows that more cars were in the hospitals, and doesn't narrow it down to the WIV lab (which would contradict the new DOE theory anyway, since they are arguing for a different lab).

But sure - more detailed work like this with good numbers and something more solid showing a cluster at the nearest hospital to the lab would be suggestive.

You're playing Clarence Darrow. I don't have the answers or evidence in my possession. I thought it was established here that we will never know for sure.

I'm just saying satellite photos might help intelligence agencies. That along with internet traffic, informants and whatever information our intelligence agencies have access to in China. I think satellite imagery over Wuhan is intriguing.

I basically posted this article about satellite imagery in response to your comment below.

Is there evidence of these satellite images of things? (Honestly don't know - haven't seen them used as part of the discussion before, but could have just missed it.)

 

[PeteOsborne]

If you watched CNN and MSNBC there was great effort put into contradicting Trump. I agree he said stupid things, but I felt the liberal media was uncooperative and misrepresenting things to score points against him. It was very unproductive.

If you read some of the things right here in this thread including some of the things posted by liberal members, it's a good discussion. I think most of these things could have been discussed in 2020, but I don't think the liberal media was interested in that discussion.

I tend to watch multiple sources before forming an opinion.
I don't watch CNN much, their news seems to be opinion oriented, not giving the news as it is.
Fox is similar but tends to be on the extreme conspiracy side.
Both are headline news in that they can be talking about the same story but change the headline to suit their view on the matter.
For example the twitter clip that I believe is 12 or 19 seconds where Zelensky states that Americas sons and daughters would be fighting a war for Ukraine and potentially die.
If you didn't watch the whole interview it would seem like he is calling for the US to intervene with boots on the ground in the near future when in actual fact he is stating that supplying arms to Ukrine now stops Russia in Ukraine and keeps Russia out of NATO countries where article 6 would be invoked causing this to happen.

Late night TV was never kind to any politician but then again they are there to get ratings and cheap shots, Seth Myers plays the video of Biden falling up the stairs three times while boarding his plane many times per show.

 

[PeteOsborne]

I thought it was established here that we will never know for sure.

That is what DR Fauci said.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/fauci-says-we-may-never-know-origin-of-covid-despite-report/
I posted the NYPost link because the original Boston Globe interview article is subsription only.

 

[Valcazar]

Any beliefs could constitute an ideology. An ideologue is something different.

noun
noun: ideologue; plural noun: ideologues

1. an adherent of an ideology, especially one who is uncompromising and dogmatic.
   "he doesn't consider himself a political ideologue, preferring to arrive at conclusions pragmatically"

That's what I said. The definition ranges from "a believer in an ideology" to "one who is uncompromising and dogmatic".

We don't have a word to distinguish the two that is in common use.

You want to use it primarily in the "dogmatic" mode.
That's fine.
I don't use it that way because I find it shuts down people's willingness to admit that they have an ideology.

 

[Valcazar]

You're playing Clarence Darrow. I don't have the answers or evidence in my possession. I thought it was established here that we will never know for sure.

If you don't believe the satellite paper, why bring it up?

I'm just saying satellite photos might help intelligence agencies. That along with internet traffic, informants and whatever information our intelligence agencies have access to in China. I think satellite imagery over Wuhan is intriguing.

You can speculate wildly about whatever evidence they might have to your heart's content.
I pointed out that satellite imagery probably wouldn't tell you much.
You responded with a paper of satellite imagery that didn't tell us much.

I basically posted this article about satellite imagery in response to your comment below.

Which wasn't any kind of statement that the FBI was using this evidence and it played into their conclusion.
Just that people have looked at satellite imagery of Wuhan.
If you are just guessing that the FBI has drawn inference from satellite data, then fine.
People are guessing they drew inference from witnesses.

Neither of which has been commented on by the FBI as true so there isn't any reason to spend much effort making up what they might have shown.

 

[Addict2sex]

 

[Valcazar]

Good article about the situation, including a sense of what it would take to start moving a version of the lab leak theory into something more than a hypothetical.

There is no lab leak theory

It's still just vibes in search of a hypothesis

theracket.news

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

But Trump is also a pathological liar

You're letting your hate for the man get in the way of common sense

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Evidence

Good, I'm glad you agree with me that they have proof.

There's no other explanation for their intel to be classified