Iran still enriching to 60%

Frankfooter

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Ah, the beautiful double standard.
Double standard?
People here are calling for Iran to renew the JCPOA and abide by the NPT.
You think Iran should have to sign and abide or be attacked, while you think Israel doesn't need to sign.

And the UN wants Israel to give up their nukes,

So the double standard lies with you not calling out Israel, while the rest of us call out Iran
 
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basketcase

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Yes I know about the India-Pak Kashmir issue. I shouldn't have mentioned Pakistan in that list. I think I removed Pakistan from a similar post somewhere else.

NK missile tests are not a threat to anyone. Missile tests are not a threat. Every country conducts them.
Again, you should read up more about relations between NK, SK, and Japan.

But thanks for admitting that Israel is not the only nuclear power engaged in heightened international politics.
 

basketcase

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I have not called you racist for criticizing Iran...
Except the post where you claimed my criticism of Iran was because they are a Muslim run country.

there is an argument to be considered from the Palestinian side, that most Jews in Israel today are really of European ancestry. Pointing that out is not racist.
They may pretend that but the reality is around 50% of Israeli Jews are descended from Jews residing in Ottoman Palestine or Arab Jews chased from their long time homes when those leaders used Israel as an excuse to persecute their indigenous Jewish population. In the same era that 750,000 Arabs fled or were chased from Israel, a million Jews fled or were chased from their Arab homes with 800,000 of them ending up in Israel.

Iran's funding of these anti-Israel groups, if they were actually true, are really in response to Israel and the US's actions.
Wow. More complete bullshit. Hezbollah is openly a proxy of Iran and part of the Iranian government's effort to exert influence in Lebanon through a non-governmental army. The actions that PIJ and Hamas (who again are openly funded by Iran) object to is Israel's existence. They are both quite clear on that topic.


And sorry but ignoring Iran's actions around the world through their Quds force is not a strong argument. They have been heavily involved in building Hezbollah to overthrow Lebanon, actively backing Shia groups in Iraq, have bombed community centers in Argentina and India, and countless other attacks on/in other countries.

It's just like your ignoring the significance of the Iran/Saudi conflict. They have had active proxy wars in Syria and Saudi directly involved against Iranian backed forces in Yemen. Add to that their battling for supremacy over Iraq and Afghanistan.

And you still refuse to actually describe what threats Iran is under that aren't directly related to the actions of the Quds terror force or nuclear activity.



I don't think you're anti-semitic like franky is but you would benefit from taking the time to read up on international relations before making the superficially informed claims you do.
 

basketcase

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Double standard?
...
Yes. Just as hypocritical as Pakistan voting for Israel join the NPT and disarm while not being NPT members and keeping their nukes.

You have yet to condemn Iran for refusing to rejoin the JCPOA and refused to comment on the secret sites where the UN detected undeclared nuclear traces.



p.s. Why is it you are happy to listen to the UNGA when they comment about Israel but ignore the actual condemnation of Iran's nuclear program?
 

Frankfooter

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Yes. Just as hypocritical as Pakistan voting for Israel join the NPT and disarm while not being NPT members and keeping their nukes.

You have yet to condemn Iran for refusing to rejoin the JCPOA and refused to comment on the secret sites where the UN detected undeclared nuclear traces.



p.s. Why is it you are happy to listen to the UNGA when they comment about Israel but ignore the actual condemnation of Iran's nuclear program?
This inner monologue of yours that you keep posting here is boring.
Iran and the US should get back to negotiations, the US should end sanctions so Iran will renew the JCPOA and undergo inspections.
Israel should sign the NPT, allow inspections and get rid of the nukes.

How many times do I have to keep posting the same thing over and over again only to watch you lie about what I just said?
 
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krealtarron

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Except the post where you claimed my criticism of Iran was because they are a Muslim run country.
In response to you at the very least hinting at anti-semitism, in response to my criticism of Israeli policies.


They may pretend that but the reality is around 50% of Israeli Jews are descended from Jews residing in Ottoman Palestine or Arab Jews chased from their long time homes when those leaders used Israel as an excuse to persecute their indigenous Jewish population. In the same era that 750,000 Arabs fled or were chased from Israel, a million Jews fled or were chased from their Arab homes with 800,000 of them ending up in Israel.
This is BS. This "Jews fled" theory is utter nonsense. The majority of Jews that live in Israel today are descended from Jews who immigrated from Europe. They have European ancestry. They were not the original natives that lived in the land 2000 years ago. This theory is used to simply "claim the land" and delegitimize Palestinian claims.

Wow. More complete bullshit. Hezbollah is openly a proxy of Iran and part of the Iranian government's effort to exert influence in Lebanon through a non-governmental army. The actions that PIJ and Hamas (who again are openly funded by Iran) object to is Israel's existence. They are both quite clear on that topic.
This is just Isareli propaganda. They use this to justify their attacks on Iran solely due to the fact that Hezbollah is Shia. Sure they may be allied with Iran, but why can't they when Israel is allied with the US and Saudi Arabia? I mean the US is the biggest terrorist state on the planet after all.

And sorry but ignoring Iran's actions around the world through their Quds force is not a strong argument. They have been heavily involved in building Hezbollah to overthrow Lebanon, actively backing Shia groups in Iraq, have bombed community centers in Argentina and India, and countless other attacks on/in other countries.
Oh please stop with the Quds force. Iran is justified in having a Quds force and using them to defend themselves because Israel/US do even worse. It is very hypocritical to never talk about what the Mossad, CIA, JSOC or the Sayaret Matkal do, and only call out the Quds force.

Pushing the standard western narrative, that every western military/intelligence unit = good, and every military unit from the Islamic world = bad (or terrorist) is just tired rhetoric.

It's just like your ignoring the significance of the Iran/Saudi conflict. They have had active proxy wars in Syria and Saudi directly involved against Iranian backed forces in Yemen. Add to that their battling for supremacy over Iraq and Afghanistan.

And you still refuse to actually describe what threats Iran is under that aren't directly related to the actions of the Quds terror force or nuclear activity.
You are overstating the Saudi/Iran conflict. It is at best a cold war. Shia/Sunni groups clashing in Syria is a Syrian issue that has existed for a long time, regardless of the Iran/Saudi conflict.

The real issue here is the Israeli/US nexus and their actions in the middle east. I mentioned examples of Israeli and US actions several times in this thread. The entire thread is about Irans nuclear ambitions, so to ask for examples that don't involve nukes or the Quds force is dishonest to say the least. Israel and the US do not have anything else to interfere about. They basically want to stop Iran from having nukes, because of Iran's position on Israel. Iran as a sovereign nation has a right to take a position it wishes against Israel, and develop nukes against other nuclear armed nations threatening them. As simple as that. The fact that they are theocratic, or the fact that they have internal issues, don't matter.

I don't think you're anti-semitic like franky is but you would benefit from taking the time to read up on international relations before making the superficially informed claims you do.
I haven't seen an anti-semitic posts from Franky. I think you need to read beyond standard western and Israeli propaganda. The things you mention here, are things that are thrown around very regularly and is not exactly new information. It is the standard western position, which is often times manipulative and wrong.
 
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Frankfooter

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The real issue here is the Israeli/US nexus and their actions in the middle east. I mentioned examples of Israeli and US actions several times in this thread. The entire thread is about Irans nuclear ambitions, so to ask for examples that don't involve nukes or the Quds force is dishonest to say the least. Israel and the US do not have anything else to interfere about. They basically want to stop Iran from having nukes, because of Iran's position on Israel. Iran as a sovereign nation has a right to take a position it wishes against Israel, and develop nukes against other nuclear armed nations threatening them. As simple as that. The fact that they are theocratic, or the fact that they have internal issues, don't matter.
The real point is for Israel to keep Iran from renewing the JCPOA so that they can claim Iran is building a bomb and use that as justification for someone (they hope its the US) starting a war.

Its not about stopping nukes, that would be easy. Help Iran renew the JCPOA and undergo full inspections.
Its about laying the justification for another middle east war.
 

basketcase

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In response to you at the very least hinting at anti-semitism, in response to my criticism of Israeli policies.




This is BS. This "Jews fled" theory is utter nonsense. The majority of Jews that live in Israel today are descended from Jews who immigrated from Europe. They have European ancestry. They were not the original natives that lived in the land 2000 years ago. This theory is used to simply "claim the land" and delegitimize Palestinian claims.



This is just Isareli propaganda. They use this to justify their attacks on Iran solely due to the fact that Hezbollah is Shia. Sure they may be allied with Iran, but why can't they when Israel is allied with the US and Saudi Arabia? I mean the US is the biggest terrorist state on the planet after all.



Oh please stop with the Quds force. Iran is justified in having a Quds force and using them to defend themselves because Israel/US do even worse. It is very hypocritical to never talk about what the Mossad, CIA, JSOC or the Sayaret Matkal do, and only call out the Quds force.

Pushing the standard western narrative, that every western military/intelligence unit = good, and every military unit from the Islamic world = bad (or terrorist) is just tired rhetoric.



You are overstating the Saudi/Iran conflict. It is at best a cold war. Shia/Sunni groups clashing in Syria is a Syrian issue that has existed for a long time, regardless of the Iran/Saudi conflict.

The real issue here is the Israeli/US nexus and their actions in the middle east. I mentioned examples of Israeli and US actions several times in this thread. The entire thread is about Irans nuclear ambitions, so to ask for examples that don't involve nukes or the Quds force is dishonest to say the least. Israel and the US do not have anything else to interfere about. They basically want to stop Iran from having nukes, because of Iran's position on Israel. Iran as a sovereign nation has a right to take a position it wishes against Israel, and develop nukes against other nuclear armed nations threatening them. As simple as that. The fact that they are theocratic, or the fact that they have internal issues, don't matter.



I haven't seen an anti-semitic posts from Franky. I think you need to read beyond standard western and Israeli propaganda. The things you mention here, are things that are thrown around very regularly and is not exactly new information. It is the standard western position, which is often times manipulative and wrong.
Wow. What a pile of irrational bullshit.

First off, you inserted the word "muslim" into my criticism of Iran as authoritarian while at the same time complaining that criticism of Israel isn't racist.

And you are completely full of shit when you claim that Jews weren't chased from Arab lands. The Jewish presence in North Africa, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Iran predates the existence of Christianity and Islam yet anti-semitism in those countries reared its head when the leaders of those countries used the prsence of Jews in the Palestine Mandate to persecute a million Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with Israel. Of them, 20% (generally the wealthier ones) managed to flee to Europe of North America while 80% had nowhere else to go but Israel. In other conflicts of that era, the population transfer would have been seen as the end but the Arab leadership still refused to consider a Jewish presence and kept Palestinian refugees locked up as pawns.


The Quds force is an international terrorist group used to push Iran's agenda and they are an active threat, both undermining foreign governments and committing attacks worldwide.
1670802884859.png

Why do you think Iran is justified in having a terrorist group? And yes, I do trust the decisions of Canada over the views of some authoritarian regime. And I don't see the CIA or Mossad on that list)


All you have is incredulity at the fact there is non-US led political conflict going on. Take the time to read some middle eastern press and you will get a sense of how serious the Iran/Saudi issue is. And while you're there, you might also see that US dependence on Saudi oil is a far bigger influence than some American Jews supporting Israel.


I do love your excuses for franky though. if you are actually new here, I'll give you some slack but franky has hit most of the characteristics of antisemitism as defined by Canada, even though he tries to dress it up as criticism of Israel. Like you, he shows the double standard of demanding the right to condemn Israel while claiming it is racist to criticize anyone else. He also has routinely stated that it's okay to target non-Israeli Jews for protest/vandalism over Israel, routinely said Palestinians have a right to self determination but Israeli Jews don't, referred to Canadian and American Jews as if they were working for Israel ahead of their country, and made endless excuses for attacks on Jewish civilians.
 

basketcase

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The real point is for Israel to keep Iran from renewing the JCPOA so that they can claim Iran is building a bomb and use that as justification for someone (they hope its the US) starting a war.

Its not about stopping nukes, that would be easy. Help Iran renew the JCPOA and undergo full inspections.
Its about laying the justification for another middle east war.
Ah, so the Israel conspiracy theory again.


Why is it you're still unable to admit that the only reason the deal wasn't resigned was because Iran refused to explain undeclared nuclear sites as the NPT requires?

It's amazing that you keep saying you want the deal resigned but instead of blaming Iran for their intransigence, you look to blame Israel.


...

How many times do I have to keep posting the same thing over and over again only to watch you lie about what I just said?
How many times will you refuse to admit that Iran is blocking the deal?
 

Frankfooter

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Ah, so the Israel conspiracy theory again.
Ah yes, now you're back to trying to stop debate by saying just posting news reports on Israeli policy is antisemitic and 'conspiracy theory'.

Why won't you admit you just want someone to start a war with Iran?
Why won't you admit that you want Iran to start building a bomb to justify attacking it?

We all know you don't want peace and you don't want nuclear deescalation.
You want war.
 
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basketcase

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Ah yes, now you're back to trying to stop debate...
Seems you're trying to end debate by changing the topic to Israel (as usual). Why won't you admit that the only reason there isn't a deal right now is Iran refused to sign?




Your comments are as stupid as if I asked you why you want Israel nuked.
 

krealtarron

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Wow. What a pile of irrational bullshit.

First off, you inserted the word "muslim" into my criticism of Iran as authoritarian while at the same time complaining that criticism of Israel isn't racist.
I most certainly did not do that. I said if my criticism of Israel makes me anti-semitic, then your criticism of Iran makes you an Islamaphobe. I was also referring to the trend in the west where people try to make moralistic arguments based on whether or not the country in discussion is Islamic.

And you are completely full of shit when you claim that Jews weren't chased from Arab lands. The Jewish presence in North Africa, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Iran predates the existence of Christianity and Islam yet anti-semitism in those countries reared its head when the leaders of those countries used the prsence of Jews in the Palestine Mandate to persecute a million Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with Israel. Of them, 20% (generally the wealthier ones) managed to flee to Europe of North America while 80% had nowhere else to go but Israel. In other conflicts of that era, the population transfer would have been seen as the end but the Arab leadership still refused to consider a Jewish presence and kept Palestinian refugees locked up as pawns.
You could make the same argument for Palestinians. Perhaps it was retaliation for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948? Atleast the Jews had a place to migrate to.

The Quds force is an international terrorist group used to push Iran's agenda and they are an active threat, both undermining foreign governments and committing attacks worldwide.

Why do you think Iran is justified in having a terrorist group? And yes, I do trust the decisions of Canada over the views of some authoritarian regime. And I don't see the CIA or Mossad on that list)
I do not accept western definitions of who is terrorist and who isn't. That is like showing someone the bible when they ask you to prove God exists. You are pushing western propaganda and using western designations of terrorist groups. The actions of CIA, Mossad etc are actually acts of terrorism and far more expansive in their effort and reach. Iran is simply retaliating by having a group that focuses on external actions, which they have every right to, considering what their adversaries are up to.

Like you, he shows the double standard of demanding the right to condemn Israel while claiming it is racist to criticize anyone else.
Criticizing others is one thing. Pushing western propaganda as if it is the truth is another.
 
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Frankfooter

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Seems you're trying to end debate by changing the topic to Israel (as usual). Why won't you admit that the only reason there isn't a deal right now is Iran refused to sign?

Your comments are as stupid as if I asked you why you want Israel nuked.
 
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basketcase

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Pathologically you can't criticize Iran for refusing to rejoin.
 

basketcase

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I most certainly did not do that.
Except you did.

I said authoritarian and your response criticized me for conflating their religion and authoritarianism.


You could make the same argument for Palestinians. Perhaps it was retaliation for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948? Atleast the Jews had a place to migrate to.
And that's exactly the point. There is little difference between Palestinians who fled the war and Jews who fled racism sparked by the war. But to be realistic, Palestinian leadership was actively involved in the war and the violence led by the Mufti and the ALA while Arab Jews weren't.

And it's pretty disgusting that you are trying to pretend ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews is in any way a reasonable response to anything.

BTW, you should try reading history because even Palestinian historians document that the vast majority of Palestinians fled long before any encounters with Israeli military. You can try to call it an ethnic cleansing but anyone with even a hint of historical knowledge would look differently, especially as a quarter of Arabs in the Israel side of the Mandate lines decided to stay and received full citizenship. Meanwhile, the Jewish populations in Arab lands dropped essentially to zero.

And all of this argument is just you trying to rationalize that half of Israelis are descended from Ottoman or Persian Jews.

Israeli Jews who immigrated from North African and Asian countries
Main articles: Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, and List of Israeli Mizrahi Jews and Sephardi Jews
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi.[60] The exact proportion of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jewish populations in Israel is unknown (since it is not included in the census); some estimates place Jews of Mizrahi origin at up to 61% of the Israeli Jewish population,[61] with hundreds of thousands more having mixed Ashkenazi heritage due to cross-cultural intermarriage. About 44.9% percent of Israel's Jewish population identify as either Mizrahi or Sephardi, 44.2% identify as Ashkenazi, about 3% as Beta Israel and 7.9% as mixed or other.
[62]


And sorry but Palestinian refugees had places to go to. It's not their fault that their Arab neighbours chose to them in camps instead of trying to integrate them the way we expect for refugee host nations. To make it even more sad, under the Ottomans, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine were all part of the same province. While the wealthy Palestinians just moved to their Beirut/Damascus properties, the poor were denied all rights and to a great extent they still are with Lebanon for example explicitly banning them from many aspects of life. It would be if Northern Ontario had massive floods and when they came to Toronto, we put them in camps and denied rights to them and their future children.


I do not accept western definitions of who is terrorist and who isn't.
You disagree with Canada then? Okay, what is your definition of terrorism? According to most people, terrorism is the act of using violence to inspire terror in the civilian population, typically by committing attacks targeting civilians. There are plenty of well documented cases of the IRGC Quds force targeting clearly civilian targets (unless you think that Argentinian community centre was really a secret Israeli military base). Their funding and supplying of PIJ (and Hamas to a lesser extent) to commit acts of terror are also well documented, as is their attempts to take over Lebanon through their Hezbollah proxy.

It's strange that you seem to be interested in human rights but think attacks targeting civilians aren't terrorism and Iran should have nukes if they want.
 
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Frankfooter

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Pathologically you can't criticize Iran for refusing to rejoin.
I find fault with Iran, the US and Israel all.
The US for pulling out and refusing to end santions.
Iran for adding a clause the US can't do.
Israel for pressuring the US and refusing to sign the NPT themselves, and refusing to decommission their nukes.

You find fault only with Iran.
Typical.
 

Frankfooter

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krealtarron

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Except you did.

I said authoritarian and your response criticized me for conflating their religion and authoritarianism.
Isn't it common place in the west to conflate Islam and authoritarianism? Even if so, how is that accusing you of being racist?

And that's exactly the point. There is little difference between Palestinians who fled the war and Jews who fled racism sparked by the war. But to be realistic, Palestinian leadership was actively involved in the war and the violence led by the Mufti and the ALA while Arab Jews weren't.

And it's pretty disgusting that you are trying to pretend ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews is in any way a reasonable response to anything.

BTW, you should try reading history because even Palestinian historians document that the vast majority of Palestinians fled long before any encounters with Israeli military. You can try to call it an ethnic cleansing but anyone with even a hint of historical knowledge would look differently, especially as a quarter of Arabs in the Israel side of the Mandate lines decided to stay and received full citizenship. Meanwhile, the Jewish populations in Arab lands dropped essentially to zero.
I think you could use some reading yourself instead of pushing standard Israeli propaganda. While I acknowledge that people fleeing war before it hits, is a possibility, the ethnic cleansing did occur.

The forced expulsion of Arabs was an objective of the Zionist movement in order to ensure a Jewish State. It is for this very reason that the right of return of Palestinians is denied to this day. It is also for this very reason, that Israel to this day does not recognize inter-religious marriages. It is quite literally a racist state, that artificially wants to maintain its "jewishness".

It is also quite hypocritical of you to acknowledge Jews being expelled from their homelands, but not acknowledge Palestinians being expelled from their homes within Israel. Several Israeli historians have actually written about this themselves.

And all of this argument is just you trying to rationalize that half of Israelis are descended from Ottoman or Persian Jews.
Yes so the majority of Jews in Israel are immigrants from other nations. North Africa or Europe or Asia. They weren't NATIVE to the land as the Palestinians were.

And sorry but Palestinian refugees had places to go to. It's not their fault that their Arab neighbours chose to them in camps instead of trying to integrate them the way we expect for refugee host nations.
What a racist nasty thing to say. So according to you, it is perfectly reasonable for immigrants from other countries to just move into a piece of land, and then expel natives from their homes so that the immigrants can make a land for themselves that is majority THEIR culture and religion, replacing the existing people there?

You disagree with Canada then? Okay, what is your definition of terrorism? According to most people, terrorism is the act of using violence to inspire terror in the civilian population, typically by committing attacks targeting civilians.
Agreed with that definition. And that is precisely what the CIA, JSOC, Mossad, Sayaret Matkal and numerous other western military organizations do, either directly or through proxies. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that Iran would retaliate. While the retaliation itself may be morally corrupt, the key point to note is that it is retaliation.

The glaring trend I see in your arguments, which is problematic, is that you seem to rationalize and moralize US/Israeli actions using standard western propaganda while completely ignoring the other side or their arguments. Such a biased point of view, is precisely why we are where we are when it comes to this issue.
 
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basketcase

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I find fault with Iran, ...
Bullshit. You're still pretending that Iran isn't doing anything wrong and still claiming that Israel is stopping the agreement. The ONLY reason why the deal wasn't signed was Iran refused because of UN investigations of undeclared sites.


 
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basketcase

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Palestinians shouldn't have been forced out of Palestine by t...
They weren't. Even Palestinian historians state clearly that the vast majority of Palestinians fled long before and Israeli forces appeared. And no comments from you on the terrorism directed at Indigenous Jews and Jewish immigrants.

But no surprise you didn't want to discuss the million Arab Jews who were chased from their homes because their neighbours didn't like Jews in a different region, just like you think it's okay to target non-Israeli Jews .
 
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