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Do liberals believe in liberty?

y2kmark

Class of 69...
May 19, 2002
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VIPhunter

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Jan 17, 2012
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Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.

In modern politics, liberty is the state of being free within society from control or oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behaviour, or political views.

What do liberals believe today?
It's a good question, and one many big L liberals have a hard time getting their heads around.

The classical definition of a liberal, would be considered right wing extremist by many identifying as liberals these days.
 

Male4Strapon

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Mar 16, 2021
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3wire

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Oct 8, 2003
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That if 96% of doctors trust the vaccine enough to take it themselves than its safe.
You have to be a bit careful on this one. Back in the 60's, 70 percent of Doctors recommended "Lucky Strikes". I follow your sentiment though...
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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You have to be a bit careful on this one. Back in the 60's, 70 percent of Doctors recommended "Lucky Strikes". I follow your sentiment though...
No, 70% of doctors didn't do that.
See, I can tell the difference between an ad from the tobacco industry and reality.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Sure. But a classical liberal would never suggest that another citizen has to take said vaccine or loose his/her job.
Whereas a freedom loving right winger would back someone with an active case of measles, leprosy, TB and smallpox in their right to sit next to you at the bar, share an uber, and work with you all day long in a confined space. That's freedom.
 

VIPhunter

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Whereas a freedom loving right winger would back someone with an active case of measles, leprosy, TB and smallpox in their right to sit next to you at the bar, share an uber, and work with you all day long in a confined space. That's freedom.
Yes, so very liberal to send them off to leper colonies and forced quarantine?

Classical liberals valued different things than modern liberals do.

Modern liberal thinking seems to require the big stick of government control to do the dirty work.
 

ottawa_cuck

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Feb 1, 2020
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hyperbolic language. 1 point deduction

Whereas a freedom loving right winger would back someone with an active case of measles, leprosy, TB and smallpox in their right to sit next to you at the bar, share an uber, and work with you all day long in a confined space. That's freedom.
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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Sure. But a classical liberal would never suggest that another citizen has to take said vaccine or loose his/her job.
Exactly. The modern liberals are as far away from the original, old world liberalism as one can get.
 
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VIPhunter

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The concept of public good seems foreign to right wingers.
No. The common good is always served by greater liberty of the individual.

You can not deny that the arc of democratic and classical liberal thought has been to allow the individual more autonomy over his own life.

Kings, emperors, Pharos, Popes, and other 'divine leaders' have fought against this desire of man to be free from the shackles of the crown, state, church, since the beginning.

Which part of liberty bothers you so very much? The ability for you to govern your own life as you see fit, or that of your neighbours to do the same?
 

poker

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Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.

In modern politics, liberty is the state of being free within society from control or oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behaviour, or political views.

What do liberals believe today?
I suppose we believe in a woman’s right to make her own decisions with her body. That’s freedom.

I suppose we also believe you are free to have any sexual partner you want. You are free to be straight, gay, bi… whatever you choose without fear of getting beaten, murdered, or denied services or employment.

You could also argue we believe unarmed black citizens have a right to run down any street they want without being beaten with a pipe, strangled or shot. Ahhh, what the hell, we also believe even if your are black and committed a crime, those fair trial rules apply to you too.

So, yeah… I guess we do stand for individual freedoms. Thank you for asking!
 

Male4Strapon

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Mar 16, 2021
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I suppose we believe in a woman’s right to make her ow decisions with her body. That’s freedom.

I suppose we also believe you free to have any sexual partner you want. You are free to be straight, gay, bi… whatever you choose without fear of getting g beaten, murdered, or denied services or employment.

You could also argue we believe unarmed black citizens have a right to run down any street they want without being beaten with a pipe, strangled or shot. Ahhh, what the hell, we also believe even if your are black and committed a crime, those fair trial rules apply to you too.

So, yeah… I guess we do stand for individual freedoms. Thank you for asking!
Ouch! Knockout blow.
 
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VIPhunter

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I suppose we believe in a woman’s right to make her own decisions with her body. That’s freedom.

I suppose we also believe you are free to have any sexual partner you want. You are free to be straight, gay, bi… whatever you choose without fear of getting beaten, murdered, or denied services or employment.

You could also argue we believe unarmed black citizens have a right to run down any street they want without being beaten with a pipe, strangled or shot. Ahhh, what the hell, we also believe even if your are black and committed a crime, those fair trial rules apply to you too.

So, yeah… I guess we do stand for individual freedoms. Thank you for asking!
So, you agree then that

1)People should be at liberty to make their own medical choices?

2) People should be able to live their lives without unnecessary government rules and regulations?

3) Citizens should not be demonized, singled out, or provoked for just living their lives, and being themselves? Citizens should also be treated equally under the law, and be given the same benefit of the doubt when standing against the government machine?

Seems like it's not too far a leap of logic (or consistency) to suggest that mandates might just violate a couple of the above.
 

Male4Strapon

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How many doctors/nurses took the vaccine because they feared to lose their job/license or be subjected to other restrictions ?
A very small percentage. I know you will ask for proof, which I of course cannot provide and likewise you cannot either to dispute it but most healthcare workers in Ontario were vaccinated long before mandated by hospitals because they wisely recognized that they were at most risk.
 

poker

Everyone's hero's, tell everyone's lies.
Jun 1, 2006
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So, you agree then that

1)People should be at liberty to make their own medical choices?

2) People should be able to live their lives without unnecessary government rules and regulations?

3) Citizens should not be demonized, singled out, or provoked for just living their lives, and being themselves? Citizens should also be treated equally under the law, and be given the same benefit of the doubt when standing against the government machine?

Seems like it's not too far a leap of logic (or consistency) to suggest that mandates might just violate a couple of the above.
1) 100%. If the Gov’t ever forced anyone to be sterilized, (and oh, I will throw you the bone) vaccinated, I would be against it.

There are exceptions. Sometimes people get crazy, and competent medical professionals need to administer sedatives. Or, sometimes someone is a danger to themselves or others, and needs to be restrained.

2) 100%. People should be allowed to live there lives without “unnecessary” government t rules. I will say, Liberals are guilty of this one from time to time.

Since we are talking about Pandemic restrictions… I would argue measures taken last year were spot on, and necessary. I think of both the Federal and Provincial governments had spent more money on facilities and bed to treat the sick, many of todays mandates could have been avoided.

Public safety does trumps individual rights. If I came back from Africa having contracted Ebola, it would not be reasonable for me to say “the gov’t don’t have the right to make me quarantine”, and show up at your office to say hi to you. Since we have City, Provincial, Federal, and Global medical professionals all agreeing we are in a Global Pandemic… Certain restrictions were justified. I do not believe it to be a global cabal of elitists taking control.

3.). You are being vague. I work in transport. If you get in one of my vehicles and assert your right to not be vaccinated or wear a mask, I will politely ask you to exit. I have to follow both Provincial regulations, and keep my drivers safe. Even if this variant is not deadly, my guys can’t miss 14 days of work for quarantine. They have families, and bills to pay.

Many of the things you talking about are not really rights though.

You should aim your anger in the right direction. The government did not want a pandemic any more than you or I did. I am trying to survive financially too. It sucks. Not JT’s or DF’s fault.
 
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