Toronto Passions

All people should have Universal Basic Income.

Claudia Love

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
2,582
1,924
113
veryone in a society — rich or poor — gets a monthly cheque for the same amount. At the end of the year, the government uses the tax system to balance out the scales and recoup that extra cash from the higher income earners who didn't end up needing it.-sounds good to me
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,497
4,903
113
I do not believe in that. I want:

1. Extensive employment support, with short term unemployment benefits and re-education for unemployed workers.
2. Welfare system to ensure that no children are left behind because of unfit parents.
3. Government supplied education to the Ph.D level for everyone capable.

That will accomplish what a guaranteed minimum income will do, and more.
 
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Claudia Love

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
2,582
1,924
113
UBI could add quantity and improve quality of basic public services (pharmacare, dental/vision care, childcare, elder care, housing, transit). Why pay more for a benefit most people would see taxed away? We could pay more and get more, building quality of life and solidarity along the way.
 

poker

Everyone's hero's, tell everyone's lies.
Jun 1, 2006
7,741
6,014
113
Niagara
UBI could add quantity and improve quality of basic public services (pharmacare, dental/vision care, childcare, elder care, housing, transit). Why pay more for a benefit most people would see taxed away? We could pay more and get more, building quality of life and solidarity along the way.
If it worked the way you imagined it would… yes. But it would not work like that.

Imagine, you and 2 of your best friends with similar income to you are at an auction. It is only for the three of you.

That day, a Picasso is up for grabs. (Don’t post it) but think about what you and your friends could bid on it ( based on what’s in your bank right now). A few hundred? A few thousand, $50g? Whatever that number is, cool. Sold for that amount.

Now, same scenario, except the gov’t has given all of you a million dollars, no strings attached. I don’t know what the painting will go for, but it will be significantly higher than the first scenario. Maybe a million dollars more.

Whenever the gov’t puts more money out in the population, the people selling things raise prices. There is more money competing for those goods, and if you get priced out, somebody else will buy it.

Universal income will increase rents and prices, because landlords know how much money is out there.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,497
4,903
113
If it worked the way you imagined it would… yes. But it would not work like that.

Imagine, you and 2 of your best friends with similar income to you are at an auction. It is only for the three of you.

That day, a Picasso is up for grabs. (Don’t post it) but think about what you and your friends could bid on it ( based on what’s in your bank right now). A few hundred? A few thousand, $50g? Whatever that number is, cool. Sold for that amount.

Now, same scenario, except the gov’t has given all of you a million dollars, no strings attached. I don’t know what the painting will go for, but it will be significantly higher than the first scenario. Maybe a million dollars more.

Whenever the gov’t puts more money out in the population, the people selling things raise prices. There is more money competing for those goods, and if you get priced out, somebody else will buy it.

Universal income will increase rents and prices, because landlords know how much money is out there.
Interesting. You have correctly described the mechanism.

However, Governments have injected the huge amounts of money into the Banking system - Wall st - instead of the consumers.

That has had the effect of too much money slushing around, so stocks have gone up, interest rates for loans have gone to zero, so that real estate has gone up, etc. etc.

Now we will have high inflation, in effect devaluation of money.

It is simple - if there are too many apples, the price of apples go down. If there are too many $$s, the price of $$ go down -i.e. a devaluation.
 

escortsxxx

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2004
3,381
905
113
Tdot
NO it will not.
First education is generally a scam for going back into the workforce. A 40 year old bank teller now forced to enter the trades as the market desires as a plumber or gas fitter has to work as at teenager wages with the body not fit for the profession. The market decides the jobs, and any job that will match years of experience in one field pay ways need mental and physical abilities that most do not have. The fact is most will start at the bottom competing with others in the same situation as well as a younger generation.
The problem is bright or fit people tend not to associate with those who are not and have no idea as to their limitations. Learning a new language is probably the easiest way of retraining and moving to a jurisdiction that has jobs but in the case of Canada the majority of opportunists are here - there some movement to Asia and of course global opportunities but as easy as learning say French or Chinese many people find it beyond them.

Further we are off shoring most jobs so underemployment has been a reality for a long time.

Mass PHD would just lower wages for the work, Cubian doctors work on such a system but they work for peanuts and would make less under a market system. Its part of the reason that in the last 20 years medical schools have only expanded by a few hundred places in Ontario to assure high doctor wages. Thought this is a good idea - thousands are rejected from medical school with marks 20 years of ago that would have had them in any school in Ontario. The pool of potential doctors has grown by a huge amount. However, this is a separate issue from guaranteed income. Sure you have a lot of sps working under the table but is that such a bad thing?

I do not believe in that. I want:

1. Extensive employment support, with short term unemployment benefits and re-education for unemployed workers.
2. Welfare system to ensure that no children are left behind because of unfit parents.
3. Government supplied education to the Ph.D level for everyone capable.

That will accomplish what a guaranteed minimum income will do, and more.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,042
11,212
113
Great idea! We can pay for it by simply printing the money. Printing money is easy and fast. (sarcastic).
 
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danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,497
4,903
113
Great idea! We can pay for it by simply printing the money. Printing money is easy and fast. (sarcastic).
Why do you want to stop now? It has happened unabated since 2008.

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onomatopoeia

Bzzzzz.......Doink
Jul 3, 2020
21,182
17,282
113
Cabbagetown
Here's what can happen when a country prints money indiscriminantly, without assets to back it:

Zimbabwe’s annual consumer price inflation surged for the fourth straight month to 60.7% in December of 2021, from 58.4% in November. That was the highest inflation rate since June, even though the central bank raised in October its main lending rate to 60% in an attempt to tame that increase and to stabilize the free-falling Zimbabwe dollar. On a monthly basis, consumer prices went up 5.76%, almost the same as previous month. source: Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe

Zimbabwe's peak month of inflation is estimated at 79.6 billion percent month-on-month, 89.7 sextillion percent year-on-year in mid-November 2008 (Wikipedia)

Online you can buy 30 trillion Zimbabwe dollars for $560 US.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,042
11,212
113
Here's what can happen when a country prints money indiscriminantly, without assets to back it:

Zimbabwe’s annual consumer price inflation surged for the fourth straight month to 60.7% in December of 2021, from 58.4% in November. That was the highest inflation rate since June, even though the central bank raised in October its main lending rate to 60% in an attempt to tame that increase and to stabilize the free-falling Zimbabwe dollar. On a monthly basis, consumer prices went up 5.76%, almost the same as previous month. source: Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe

Zimbabwe's peak month of inflation is estimated at 79.6 billion percent month-on-month, 89.7 sextillion percent year-on-year in mid-November 2008 (Wikipedia)

Online you can buy 30 trillion Zimbabwe dollars for $560 US.
At one time my job description included South America. Talk about hyper inflation!

When I was a kid I use to collect stamps. Some German stamps had a face value of millions.
 

LTO_3

Well-known member
Aug 27, 2004
986
710
93
Niagara Region
UBI is a great concept on paper that's been tried but doesn't work on a large scale. Think socialist countries as an example.
But UBI was tried on a small scale a few years ago that showed promising results. Likely will fail on a large scale because that's what usually happens.

LTO_3
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,647
1,280
113
I do not believe in that. I want:

1. Extensive employment support, with short term unemployment benefits and re-education for unemployed workers.
2. Welfare system to ensure that no children are left behind because of unfit parents.
3. Government supplied education to the Ph.D level for everyone capable.

That will accomplish what a guaranteed minimum income will do, and more.
I agree with all points, though 1 and 3 should be merit-based.
A UBI is not merit-based, which is why I oppose it.
 

VIPhunter

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2012
1,302
334
83
I agree with all points, though 1 and 3 should be merit-based.
A UBI is not merit-based, which is why I oppose it.
Merit based? Would that not suggest that those who pay for UBI would most merit being recipients too?

Why can't we just reduce the taxes we all pay, and let us keep more of our own money?

Do we really need another huge ministry of fucking-up to administer this windfall?

(Yes, I recognize the REAL savings from UBI COULD be the reduction of welfare, OAS and CPP offices...but jeez....does anybody think that would happen in this country that loves government involvement and growth above all?)
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,647
1,280
113
Merit based? Would that not suggest that those who pay for UBI would most merit being recipients too?
Again, why I don't support UBI.

Regarding the points I was attributing my own to, I don't believe in welfare for people able to work. I believe in unemployment benefits for those looking for work and have not yet found it.
And I believe in universal education up to the Ph.D level for those whose grades merit it. None of this "no one left behind" horseshit that just drags everyone else down.
 
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tastingyou

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2014
665
1,011
93
Great idea! We can pay for it by simply printing the money. Printing money is easy and fast. (sarcastic).
That is essentially what financially irresponsible governments like the Federal Liberals [ Trudeau] do. Do not think for one second that any of that money will ever be paid back. It will not. Fiscal policy will just manipulate interest rates to necessarily keeping them low so debt servicing on debt is a somewhat manageable cost, until it is not. And then they will print more money and/or create more debt.
 

onomatopoeia

Bzzzzz.......Doink
Jul 3, 2020
21,182
17,282
113
Cabbagetown
That is essentially what financially irresponsible governments like the Federal Liberals [ Trudeau] do. Do not think for one second that any of that money will ever be paid back. It will not. Fiscal policy will just manipulate interest rates to necessarily keeping them low so debt servicing on debt is a somewhat manageable cost, until it is not. And then they will print more money and/or create more debt.
I'm glad that I won't be around when the people born after Gen X will be on the hook for paying for all the perks the Canadian Government bought on credit on behalf of their ancestors.

Canadians born around 1925 got the best deal:

1) They were a little too young to be drafted into World War II,

2) Many of the men just slightly older than they were were killed or injured in WW2. At the age when they joined the full time job market, the post war economy was booming, and many could and did chose a single employer, for which they worked their entire Career.

3) Interest rates for mortgages and taxes were very low when they were old enough to buy a home.

4) Before computers, businesses did a lot of mathematical work manually, with many more workers needed to perform routine tasks. Well paying blue-collar jobs were also plentiful for those with less education.

5) Most women were at home popping out the Baby Boom generation, so there was less competition for jobs.

5) They might have worked half of their career before the Canada Pension Plan was introduced, but they got full credit for all their Employment years during which they made no contributions.

6) Inflation and wage increases in the 1970's greatly increased the value of their company pensions, often based on number of years worked and highest average salary for X number of years.

7) They were nearing early retirement age when companies started to downsize in the early 1980's.

8) They were often able to retire early, and live many years after their retirement, with increases to human longevity spawned by medical advancement.

9) They were able to provide an even higher standard of living for their children.

My father was born in 1923. He was drafted into World War II, but was injured in boot camp, and saw no action in the European Theater. He did, however, receive generous funding for his University education for being a 'veteran'. He took a job with an Insurance Company straight out of the U of T, and never worked for anyone else. He retired in 1984 at age 61, with indexed company and Canadian pensions.

I was born in 1961. When I was College age, a recession was starting, and interest rates were very high, (20% on my student loan). Companies were starting to downsize, and most of the better jobs were held by Baby Boomers a few years older than I was. Things got progressively worse for many of the people born later than I was. As a perk, I got to be a teen in the 1970's.

I wouldn't want to be twenty now, and have to live another sixty or more years in the world that's coming.
 
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