Do you believe in privilege? White privilege, etc?

Do you believe privilege exists?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Don’t care


Results are only viewable after voting.

escortsxxx

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To me, the answer to the poll question is an unequivocal yes, though I will acknowledge I still had hesitation answering that way. The complexity of the issues involved here makes it very difficult to boil down a response to a binary choice.

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Consider discrimination in hiring an employee. It may manifest as "I will not hire this person, even though they are the most qualified, because they are (fill in the blank)." I expect this continues to happen, though I would hope we've progressed enough as a society that it is relatively rare. Discriminatory behaviours and systems, on both individual and systemic levels, do not have to be so overt however; they can be subtle, subconscious and/or unintentional. Further, they might go unnoticed. The example of names on a CV impacting the likelihood of getting an interview is a prime example of these attributes. On the employer's side, such discrimination might occur without any conscious intent or maliciousness, and neither a person denied an interview nor the person ultimately being hired need be aware it occurred. I think there would be naivety in assuming oneself immune to this. We all routinely engage in judgment, which is in some respects an essential aspect of functioning, but has negative consequences requiring self-awareness to mitigate.

One issue here is choice of language. Terms such as privileged, underprivileged, oppressor, oppressed, agent group, target group etc. all exist and have closely related meanings in use. There is debate in academic circles about which are most appropriate. There can be associations of blame, guilt, defensiveness and so on that can actually be counterproductive to the intent behind such discussion: to improve social justice. This can be very subjective. I, for example, wouldn't take issue with the statement "White privilege exists," though I do take some issue with reframing it into "All White people are privileged," which I've heard. In part this is due to a subtle shift in tone that connotes more intention, conflict and blame. Further, I see it as invoking the logical fallacy of overgeneralization. Variables of this nature are inherently probabilistic. So, even if White privilege exists, that does not imply all While people benefit from it, at least not in any universal or consistent sense. I think a general awareness of such issues is vital to understanding how we can better function as a society, but it is important to remember that the broader experience of a class of people need not reflect the experience of an individual belonging to that class, and vice versa. Always, a person is an individual first and foremost.

If I take myself as an example, I identify as White, male, straight. I would think it reasonable to suggest those identifiers may have eased my relationship with society in ways throughout my life. I also identify as having a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, something which I have addressed in other threads before. Largely by definition, this identifier means that I do not fit neatly within many cultural norms, and that can definitely create tension in my relationship with society. I am aware that acknowledging this aspect of myself brings about certain judgments in others, some of which will not accurately characterize the identifier generally, let alone me specifically. But without this self-identification, it is in many respects invisible, as most people I encounter will have no idea it applies to me. This is both a blessing and a curse; while I might never be exposed to the associations people would have if they knew, the discrimination that does exist can also be more problematic for its invisibility.

There are a host of examples from my life I could bring forward, though I think one of the most useful is the subject of academic petitions. At times during my university education, my mental health status made it effectively impossible for me to complete courses, leaving fails on my record. Having those addressed through academic petitions could be extremely difficult due to a variety of regulations and requirements. Navigating the bureaucracy involved was practically no more reasonable at the time than completing the courses would have been. Now, the intent behind this bureaucracy may not have been discriminatory. Nor would it have been universal in its impact; some people with mental health concerns might experience no undue burden, and some people without might struggle with the bureaucracy regardless. But I have little doubt there was a disproportionate effect on those dealing with mental health. The system for judging an academic petition was more difficult to access for reasons not related to the actual merit of such a petition, and in that way the system was discriminatory. It is a case where treating people equally does not mean treating them equitably.

While I disagree with much of what you have said, it is well said, and you make a good case. I agree that " The complexity of the issues involved here makes it very difficult to boil down a response to a binary choice. " Magical thinking however is to avoided if possible. Fuzzy concepts like this do more harm than good. The whole topic is very complex with a horrible history.
 
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poker

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We live in wonderous times indeed.... when I was young, minorities were absolutely minorities in my neck if the woods. There were maybe 3 black kids in my school, and I heard the N word daily. Insults. Jokes. Probably participated in my ignorance. And I have had the privilege to live through a massive cultural shift. Through more and more exposure to other cultures, and other people, and the maturity that time brings... some of my best friends are immigrants.

Yes... immigrants today have a much easier path. That is not to say that racism does not exist, but it does not have to be the barrier it used to be.

Still... Toronto (and Niagara by extension) is unique place in this world. What you and I see on Young street, may not be the same in Detroit, or Athens Georgia. You only really know what you see, and everybody see's something different.
 
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moredale7

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Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

Of note, I never once used the word Black.

Also, do you not concede that any of what I am saying is valid?

You switched from one big problem to another but have never accepted that the individual facing these large challenges has a role to play in figuring out how they are going to go make it work despite it all.
I never once used the word Black.

You switched from one big problem to another

do you not concede that any of what I am saying is valid?



MD
 
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Jenesis

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Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

Of note, I never once used the word Black.

Also, do you not concede that any of what I am saying is valid?

You switched from one big problem to another but have never accepted that the individual facing these large challenges has a role to play in figuring out how they are going to go make it work despite it all.
I know very well working from the bottom. I was a homeless pregnant teen. I mentioned that a few times in this thread and have personally shown how hard work can breed success. So I didn’t think I wasn’t validating your point on hard work. I already covered it in my mind.

However, while saying that, I acknowledge the fact that I still had an easier time on that hard road then a black pregnant teen would have and more doors may have been open to me to become successful then would have been offered to her. That is just recognizing my privilege. There is nothing wrong with accepting that. It doesn’t make me a bad person. It is just accepting a reality and trying to do the same going forward.
 

basketcase

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Evergreen University is a typical example of this...
And way outweighed by the experiences of POC.

Every ism has people who take it to extremes but that doesn't change the disadvantages that the average non-white person has to face in North America.
 
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basketcase

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There is significant privilege across many categories.

The question for an individual trying to be successful in life is “so what?”.

Life isn’t fair, but you have to learn how to overcome it.

It is more unfair for some vs. others. BUT you only have one life and you have to do your best within your circumstances to figure it out.

This is why I have more respect for those successful people who have had to overcome more….’I started from the bottom now I’m here’.

One can fight to improve the inequities, but I think it is more effective to fight for your own success, and show others that it is indeed possible to overcome.
I've always had the mindset of overcoming whatever obstacles I face but that doesn't mean society shouldn't try to identify the inequalities that exist and try to eliminate them?
 
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Frankfooter

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As an aside my Canadian history book refereed to the English, French and Canadian races. The Canadian race would include any Canadian with Canadian citizenship no matter what there colour, and the English would be German, Normandy race as well as Celtic among others. The race concept in general is nuts. In Toronto , No Irish and no Dogs where once around the city in public areas. French Canadians used to be the horrible race etc. Its all insanity.
Absolutely, I mean the native population here only the vote in the 1960.

Would you think it's appropriate to turn every thread into you obsession with israel?
I'm just pointing out that its cringeworthy when you show up on these threads to argue against racism then turn around and defend apartheid on others.
 
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eddie kerr

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I've always had the mindset of overcoming whatever obstacles I face but that doesn't mean society shouldn't try to identify the inequalities that exist and try to eliminate them?
Many years ago in the 1960s, I applied for a sales job in Toronto with an American owned company. They were hiring a number of candidates and I was one that was selected. I am a white Canadian born male that has an eastern European Surname (Ukranian). On my first day on the job, my sales manager said he was totally surprised that I was hired as I was the first person hired that did not have a WASP surname, (Smith, Jones, etc.). Those days there was not a large non white population in Toronto, but there was certainly a lot of discrimination. Also, if you check the names of politicians names back then, whether federal, provincial or municipal, all of their names were so called White Anglican Protestants. Bottom line, it may not have been White Privilege but it was still privilege of the so called majority.
 
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The Fox

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You asked why people were even talking about this stuff but what you really mean is you want people to stop sharing opinions that you disagree with.

As for definition, how about a skin tone that allows you to pass as part of mainstream Canadian (white-Christian) culture and not being identified as an outsider?

And sorry but the stats are what they are. Visible minorities are on the losing end of pretty much any metric in Canada and it's not because they are inferior. Sure, in Japan it would be Japanese privilege, in Qatar it would be Arab privilege, but we're talking about North America here.
You still haven’t defined white. I’m English white and we have a very healthy history with black communities. You are getting influenced by American politics which has a very unhealthy relationship with race.

Visible minorities are thriving in Canada. FYI stats are there to prove it.
 

The Fox

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Things have improved but especially in a high stress institutional environment like support services, black people are subject to the same subconscious prejudices we see in stats about schools and hospitals.
Absolutely not true. So schools and hospitals are purposely keeping the black communities down, refusing treatment and education based on skin color??? It’s proper BS. Poverty is another issue but it’s not skin color.
 

escortsxxx

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Many years ago in the 1960s, I applied for a sales job in Toronto with an American owned company. They were hiring a number of candidates and I was one that was selected. I am a white Canadian born male that has an eastern European Surname (Ukranian). On my first day on the job, my sales manager said he was totally surprised that I was hired as I was the first person hired that did not have a WASP surname, (Smith, Jones, etc.). Those days there was not a large non white population in Toronto, but there was certainly a lot of discrimination. Also, if you check the names of politicians names back then, whether federal, provincial or municipal, all of their names were so called White Anglican Protestants. Bottom line, it may not have been White Privilege but it was still privilege of the so called majority.
I totally agree and much evidence backs this up - thought there are cases where the minority with guns prevails ; majority usually equates power (and in democracies more so)
First some exceptions: The Normans in 1066 had the best weapons and mercifully oppressed the native Anxlo Saxons where we get the Robin Hood Myth. The rulers of England did not even bother to learn English using peons to translate.
South Africans white populartion over the black however they allied with the top tribes - without native help this would not have been possible - South African already had weaker tribes dominated by more powerful tribes the invaders just used this to there advantage.

On the other side the Basques in France have long had issues with the majority French. Southern France with a different food and accent has long been bullied by the superior numbers of the north and even where slaughtered in the thousands during The Albigensian Crusade or the Cathar Crusade (1209–1229; Croisade des albigeois, or Crosada dels albigeses) which was also a dispute about religion.

Euriope had hundreds of wars over versions of Christianity - with the majority version killing and enslaving the minority - the famous St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572 comes to mind,
 
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The Fox

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I know very well working from the bottom. I was a homeless pregnant teen. I mentioned that a few times in this thread and have personally shown how hard work can breed success. So I didn’t think I wasn’t validating your point on hard work. I already covered it in my mind.

However, while saying that, I acknowledge the fact that I still had an easier time on that hard road then a black pregnant teen would have and more doors may have been open to me to become successful then would have been offered to her. That is just recognizing my privilege. There is nothing wrong with accepting that. It doesn’t make me a bad person. It is just accepting a reality and trying to do the same going forward.
Why are you so adamant that you only received good fortune because you are white? Don’t you believe there are people out there that would do the same for a black pregnant teen?
 

The Fox

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This is more then just “life isn't fair” This is having a non-white name gets your resume tossed before even being a looked at. That is not simply “unfair”
Have you been in the corporate world. My goodness, white names are certainly the minority.

I worked for a company in NYC and we hired a fox. A person who identified as a Fox. You are believing what you read on Twitter. It’s not the real world.
 

Jenesis

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Have you been in the corporate world. My goodness, white names are certainly the minority.

I worked for a company in NYC and we hired a fox. A person who identified as a Fox. You are believing what you read on Twitter. It’s not the real world.
We have posted actual news articles showing exactly what I have said in this thread. Go read them before commenting please.
Why are you so adamant that you only received good fortune because you are white? Don’t you believe there are people out there that would do the same for a black pregnant teen?
I didn't say I “only” received support because I was white. And I said I believe a black teen would have gotten some support. But I believe we would have got the standard supoty of social assistance an housing. But maybe not the opportunity to start her own business like I was given.

Let me ask you a straight question and give a straight answer.

Would you prefer to grow up white or black? You only have those two choices. Pick one.
 

cex

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Lol how am I against black people? There are racist outliers in every single race. This is getting out of hand. Let's get back to talking about boning escorts please.
This all seems like a pointless discussion. So what if it does or doesn’t. Who cares. The world isn’t equal. You just have to be the best YOU possible and avoid dickheads. Easy.

I personally don’t like the white privilege narrative because it’s already saying that if you are black you are recessive. My black friends won’t accept that victim narrative.
Who cares? People who it affects in their daily lives. It's something that does exist regardless of what "your black friends" feel or think. The white privilege narrative does exist in our society, whether you like it or not. People do get the benifit of the doubt and treated differently just based on their background alone.
 

cex

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Bolloxs and outdated thinking. You need to move on with the times. I think your beliefs of white privilege are slightly racist. It’s as if you want black communities to believe they are already behind the 8 ball. It’s not true. They can rock this world.

I personally believe in a positive mindset. I’d rather raise a community by making them feel empowered rather than attack opposite community to try to bring them down.
And how would you know this? Based on your experience as a black person or person of colour?
 
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cex

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So what?

You can say it is unfair, evil, criminal, etc., but you can either apply for the next 10 jobs or spend your time complaining about how wrong it was that your resume got tossed.

The person complaining will still be complaining weeks later, while the person that applied to 10 other jobs will be collecting a pay cheque.

THAT is how to succeed, and why I get frustrated with those who spend so much time saying the world is broken and ‘someone’ should fix it.
Like I've said, some people like you don't see it and unfortunately never will. Ypu don't see the issue that a person is being turned down for something because of their background alone and another person of a different background( White) does not get to deal with that. But, somehow your argument to that is ...no big deal, move on to the next 9 and stop whining?
 
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Frankfooter

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Have you been in the corporate world. My goodness, white names are certainly the minority.

I worked for a company in NYC and we hired a fox. A person who identified as a Fox. You are believing what you read on Twitter. It’s not the real world.
Congrats on your new job.
 

basketcase

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I'm just pointing out that its cringeworthy when you show up on these threads to argue against racism then turn around and defend apartheid on others.
Sorry but we all know your obsession and how frustrated you get when people criticize something other than israel.
 
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