If ICU beds run out, should vaccinated individuals get priority?
- Thread starter rhuarc29
- Start date
How many vaccinated people are getting seriously ill vs the non vaccinated?
We are seeing anti-vaxxers protesting outside of hospitals blocking unvaccinated patients from getting treatment for covid. How fuckin ass-backward is that?
We are all human. A life is not less important than another. It would be very heartless, imo, to do something like that.
This morning I re-read the biblical story of the Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus with the Covid deniers in mind. Paul (soon to be an apostle) was a rabid, hate filled, anti Christian who discovered a love for Christianity while traveling to Damascus. This parable is now used to highlight when people realize the error of their ways, often when it is too late for true repentance or change.
The stories of anti vaxxers re-canting their anti vax stance just as the ventilator tube is being inserted are frequent now. They're learning the slight risk and discomfort of the vaccine pales in comparison with the slow, terrifying agony of suffocation. For them the conversion comes too late. Shame on anyone who feels their individual "rights" trump the obligations they have as a member of society as a whole.
So, no. If you need an ICU bed because you chose not to be vaccinated, you can wait outside while intensively critical patients, who find themselves in a life threatening situation through no cause of their own, get treatment.
The health care system is behind on cancer treatments, hip and knee replacement surgeries, cataract surgeries, transplants and a myriad of other life enhancing treatments because of the ongoing Covid hangover. If you're not doing everything you can to mitigate the effects of Covid (starting with masking and getting vaccinated) you're hurting others in ways you can't imagine. So, shame on you. And fuck you for being so selfish.
(Note: I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean there aren't some valid life lessons to be found in the bible. So, for those that know me, I have not suddenly embraced Jesus. Just making a point.)
The stories of anti vaxxers re-canting their anti vax stance just as the ventilator tube is being inserted are frequent now. They're learning the slight risk and discomfort of the vaccine pales in comparison with the slow, terrifying agony of suffocation. For them the conversion comes too late. Shame on anyone who feels their individual "rights" trump the obligations they have as a member of society as a whole.
So, no. If you need an ICU bed because you chose not to be vaccinated, you can wait outside while intensively critical patients, who find themselves in a life threatening situation through no cause of their own, get treatment.
The health care system is behind on cancer treatments, hip and knee replacement surgeries, cataract surgeries, transplants and a myriad of other life enhancing treatments because of the ongoing Covid hangover. If you're not doing everything you can to mitigate the effects of Covid (starting with masking and getting vaccinated) you're hurting others in ways you can't imagine. So, shame on you. And fuck you for being so selfish.
(Note: I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean there aren't some valid life lessons to be found in the bible. So, for those that know me, I have not suddenly embraced Jesus. Just making a point.)
Well said mate!
It's contrary to the vocation doctor agree to. Prioritization in hospital is called guidelines and protocols
Where I eventually see a big change is insurance wise. Just like the boat industry who is fighting to make sure they get only vaccinated I think insurance company are currently planing and will come up with higher cost for if you are not vaccinated. Basically money will talk and will be coming from insurer...
What would you do if someone close to you in your family wouldn't want to be vaccinated and end up at the icu?
I dont know..some people in my family took that decision and even if I don't share the anti vaxx ideology, I wouldn't want them to be left aside and die.
Unvaccinated children should be ahead of everyone else if there aren’t enough beds.
I doubt it will come to this. One because its basically(minus a few severely previous condition ill) all unvaxxed going in, and two we rode out the previous waves when no one was vaxxed. I follow the news daily and the case loads to hospitalizations is fine so far. We are no where near triage situations.
From an ethical standpoint while I love vaccine passports, mandates, loss of jobs for not complying, travel restrictions, and everything else to either isolate the idiots and force the stupid, lazy, and hesitant ones to get it, we can't deny care. It's illegal under our system, and a slippery slope to denying care to obese, injured(well you chose to play sports!), mistakes and myriad other reasons.
My patience has run out, but not my end compassion to them and their families. And I would never place a doctor in the situation of having to ENFORCE something like that.
From an ethical standpoint while I love vaccine passports, mandates, loss of jobs for not complying, travel restrictions, and everything else to either isolate the idiots and force the stupid, lazy, and hesitant ones to get it, we can't deny care. It's illegal under our system, and a slippery slope to denying care to obese, injured(well you chose to play sports!), mistakes and myriad other reasons.
My patience has run out, but not my end compassion to them and their families. And I would never place a doctor in the situation of having to ENFORCE something like that.
This is quite the ethical and moral dilemma. I think, if things get to that point, that there will be triage of some sort, and since the vaccinated person probably has a higher chance of recovery, they would get the ICU bed...But, there are obviously other factors that play into this besides just the patients vaccination status. Underlying health concerns, age, physical health etc, would all be factors in this type of triage.
Example: A 25 year old unvaccinated person in great health gets the virus, and there is a 70 year old vaccinated person with diabetes and a history of smoking gets it as well. The odds the 70 year old survives is probably less than the 25 year old, so we should probably give those scarce resources to the youngster.
We know in severe times of crisis, doctors are forced to make these difficult and impossible decisions. In the above mentioned scenario, there is a chance the 25 year old could die while the older person would live. There are too many unknowns. I think that the reason this is becoming a talking point is to hopefully motivate people to get vaccinated quickly. I hope it works, and that doctors don't have to make these difficult decisions.
Example: A 25 year old unvaccinated person in great health gets the virus, and there is a 70 year old vaccinated person with diabetes and a history of smoking gets it as well. The odds the 70 year old survives is probably less than the 25 year old, so we should probably give those scarce resources to the youngster.
We know in severe times of crisis, doctors are forced to make these difficult and impossible decisions. In the above mentioned scenario, there is a chance the 25 year old could die while the older person would live. There are too many unknowns. I think that the reason this is becoming a talking point is to hopefully motivate people to get vaccinated quickly. I hope it works, and that doctors don't have to make these difficult decisions.
health care workers save lives regardless if you are:
antivaxer with covid
Smoker with cancer
Have car accident while driving over the speed limit
Etc...
I dont have a lot of sympathy for those but they still deserve to receive health care.
antivaxer with covid
Smoker with cancer
Have car accident while driving over the speed limit
Etc...
I dont have a lot of sympathy for those but they still deserve to receive health care.
They should be taking names and making notes.
Oh you are having a widowmaker heart attack and a stroke at the same time?
Pity that, but Bob the vaccinated over there stubbed his toe, and Jane the vaccinated over there has an ear ache and Doug the vaccinated was scratched by superhero Meg I mean sure it didn't cut the skin but it seems painful so you will have to wait. You won't mind right, here is a picture of you calling me and my coworkers literally Hitler. Surely you are not in a rush to be treated by literal Hitler right?
But medicine does work on a triage system which does take into account the likelihood of recovery. If two people are equally sick and stats say that unvaccinated people are more likely to die, it could mean the vaccinated person get preference.It's contrary to the vocation doctor agree to. Prioritization in hospital is called guidelines and protocols
...
Hopefully our health restrictions will prevent us ending up like some of the Southern states where this is close to a reality.
A physician in private practice might refuse to treat an anti-vaxxer but I don’t think a publicly funded hospital can discriminate in that manner.
I believe the medical profession has a well-researched code of “battlefield ethics” for deciding who does and does not receive treatment in times of limited resources. I think other posters above were correct that it depends primarily on who has the best chance of survival.
I believe the medical profession has a well-researched code of “battlefield ethics” for deciding who does and does not receive treatment in times of limited resources. I think other posters above were correct that it depends primarily on who has the best chance of survival.
Yes, but it will be useless in countries without private health care and health insurance companiesIt's contrary to the vocation doctor agree to. Prioritization in hospital is called guidelines and protocols
Where I eventually see a big change is insurance wise. Just like the boat industry who is fighting to make sure they get only vaccinated I think insurance company are currently planing and will come up with higher cost for if you are not vaccinated. Basically money will talk and will be coming from insurer...
These are the fully vaccinated numbers in Ontario as of today
94.5% of our 80+ population is fully vaccinated
93.2% of our 70-79 population is fully vaccinated
88.6% of our 60-69 population is fully vaccinated
80.1% of our 50-59 population is fully vaccinated
These age groups comprise about 80% of all covid ICU stays. They've told us vaccination reduces serious hospitalization by 95%. If these figures are to believed, there is no possible way we should ever come close to shortages of ICU beds in the province, right? That is unless the numbers they have been giving us are full of shit, which is entirely possible. Check these figures below
Current ICU beds occupied by covid19 patients in ON - 192
ICU beds occupied by covid19 patients in ON (at Sept 7, 2020)- 18
11 times more people in ICU right now than this time last year. Despite having about 85% of our most vulnerable population fully vaccinated.
For reference the most patients we had in ICU with covid19 was 820 back in April.
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Just stop and get your vaccine as responsible people in society do. We don't need your nonsense and bullshit all in the hopes of trying to justify your selfishness and arrogance.
