How do we create a safe and legal experience for everyone?

Lickylick

Decriminalize, Regulate, license.
Jan 25, 2018
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To providers how would you change the way your industry is regulated; changing it into an industry that is safe for providers and clients and legal for all parties involved?

To hobbyists same question?

Or do you think the way the laws sit now are fine? This question is for both providers and hobbyists as well?



I think we should reclassify sex workers as licensed health care workers. We can all agree to one thing sex and orgasms are great for ones mental health. Lol ...kidding aside, interested to see what people's thoughts are.
 
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gibarian

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2019
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Regulation doesn't necessarily lead to safety. Full decriminalization, for both sex workers and their clients, is the only acceptable solution.

Revolting Prostitutes by Juno Mac and Molly Smith is a short but powerfully comprehensive examination of the issue, if any fellow clients are looking to do some reading.
 

Demonoid007

Support decriminalization!
Apr 15, 2019
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I agree that decriminalization is a necessary step. As long as it is criminalized, neither side is really safe and it only encourages bad practices on both sides.

Personally, I would also like to see licensing that would required testing every once in a while, as it would increase everyone's health safety. I am surprised of some of the stories I've seen in this and other forums that include high risk behaviors. Not judging preferences, but do believe that with STDs on the rise in Canada, the industry should be more careful for everybody's protection. I for one, never shy from some protection... is just good policy.

I cannot talk from a provider point of view, but I do believe whatever new legislative framework cannot be too onerous for providers, as it may hinder compliance. I rather something simple that allows them to be healthy, protected, and with recourse to the law should they ever need it.
 

gibarian

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2019
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I agree that decriminalization is a necessary step. As long as it is criminalized, neither side is really safe and it only encourages bad practices on both sides.

Personally, I would also like to see licensing that would required testing every once in a while, as it would increase everyone's health safety. I am surprised of some of the stories I've seen in this and other forums that include high risk behaviors. Not judging preferences, but do believe that with STDs on the rise in Canada, the industry should be more careful for everybody's protection. I for one, never shy from some protection... is just good policy.

I cannot talk from a provider point of view, but I do believe whatever new legislative framework cannot be too onerous for providers, as it may hinder compliance. I rather something simple that allows them to be healthy, protected, and with recourse to the law should they ever need it.
In this hypothetical would you also like to see clients complete required health testing (and therefore be "out" and registered under their legal identity in some sort of private government database)?
 

Demonoid007

Support decriminalization!
Apr 15, 2019
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In this hypothetical would you also like to see clients complete required health testing (and therefore be "out" and registered under their legal identity in some sort of private government database)?
Not really, I see it more akin to a dentist or a chiropractor. I want my dentist to be licensed, not all his patients.
 

Nesbot

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2016
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Not really, I see it more akin to a dentist or a chiropractor. I want my dentist to be licensed, not all his patients.
That's an interesting concept. Taking elements of the some of the legal European countries to apply here.

The only way I think your suggestion works is if (as you mentioned) decriminalization takes hold. But I think you're focusing on the health aspects of safety exclusively. There is another element and that's dealing with humans. Humans are dangerous. And providers are vulnerable. I don't know how to deal with that part of it, but if the industry was fully legal, clients would need to be confirmed stable. Well, as "confirmed" as one could be.

Maybe they would need to be precluded from service if there were any criminal sexual convictions or mental issues that are untreated. That's just an idea. The logistics of applying that are obviously absurd, and I'm not sure how that could be applied. It's an interesting thought project though.
 

Lickylick

Decriminalize, Regulate, license.
Jan 25, 2018
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I think decriminalization and individual licensing would go a long way to making things a safer for everyone; nothing is perfect and we have to start somewhere. The stigma that comes with the business of sex is built on a generation that is deteriorating, but the laws they created are a still way of life.

Licensing would consist of a vetting process that someone thinking of entering into the industry would be interviewed by a panel prior to being issued a license which would include client privacy privileges' in the same respect one would receive from an attorney. The vetting process would be a series of interviews with former sex workers, health care workers, law enforcement. The vetting process would help weed out those with bad intentions or those being forced into the profession. This is not a profession for everyone it takes a special kind of person who can do this type of work and maintain a normal life.

Their are people on both sides with bad intentions and being a client I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, their is also being blackmailed. If the provider was licensed it would ease my concerns.

Providers could work under any assumed name as long as they displayed their license number, they would have the same privileges', lawyers have in the form of a client confidentiality agreement. A provider could request real name and copy or id for her safety. This would come with heavy fines and penalties if broken by the provider.

Their is a better safer way, but like Alma pointed out you can never predict the human factor.
 

gibarian

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2019
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Not really, I see it more akin to a dentist or a chiropractor. I want my dentist to be licensed, not all his patients.
That comparison doesn't make sense, though.

- Dentists aren't culturally stigmatized (except for in a couple of Seinfeld episodes)
- You don't work on your dentist's teeth while they're working on yours

Beyond those two obvious differences it just seems very unfair and self-interested to require one half of the equation to take all the personal risk (re: stigmatization) and financial burden (re: licensing fees) while the other side offers nothing.

I think decriminalization and individual licensing would go a long way to making things a safer for everyone; nothing is perfect and we have to start somewhere. The stigma that comes with the business of sex is built on a generation that is deteriorating, but the laws they created are a still way of life.

Licensing would consist of a vetting process that someone thinking of entering into the industry would be interviewed by a panel prior to being issued a license which would include client privacy privileges' in the same respect one would receive from an attorney. The vetting process would be a series of interviews with former sex workers, health care workers, law enforcement. The vetting process would help weed out those with bad intentions or those being forced into the profession. This is not a profession for everyone it takes a special kind of person who can do this type of work and maintain a normal life.

Their are people on both sides with bad intentions and being a client I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, their is also being blackmailed. If the provider was licensed it would ease my concerns.

Providers could work under any assumed name as long as they displayed their license number, they would have the same privileges', lawyers have in the form of a client confidentiality agreement. A provider could request real name and copy or id for her safety. This would come with heavy fines and penalties if broken by the provider.

Their is a better safer way, but like Alma pointed out you can never predict the human factor.
You've unknowingly hit on a bunch of reasons why legalization/regulation is bad. :LOL:

A lot of people do sex work to avoid bureaucracy, and now you're asking those people to prostrate themselves in front of a panel of judges? What about the inevitable corruption and quid-pro-quos that would plague a system like that? Sex workers already don't trust cops, why would cops be involved in the panel? On average, cops are more likely to be violent domestic abusers than other men.

What happens when someone can't pass the panel? What about undocumented sex workers who can't apply for the license? What about people who are doing it for fast/emergency funds? All those groups of people are still going to do the work, because they're still going to be under whatever financial/personal pressures brought them to the idea of doing the work in the first place, so you've just created a black market for unlicensed sex workers (in which they will be subject to the same -- or much worse -- dangers they are subject to under current conditions.

"Client privacy privilege" sounds terrible. Why do you think ID screening works so well for so many people? Part of the reason is that clients, on average, will be better behaved if they know any transgressions could make waves in their personal lives. Now you've taken away that leverage and feeling of security from sex workers. Would you have them consult an enormous legal manual to determine when they can share/publicize a client's information to protect themself or others, without the risk of being sued and losing thei license? What about clients who dox sex workers, nothing in your plan to address or punish that? Why isn't it a two-way street? You say that SWs would also benefit from the privacy privilege, but unless clients are also on a registry somewhere that would not be true.

In short: the type of system you describe is bad for sex workers. It removes their independence, and maintains an underground market with all of violence and coercion endemic to underground markets of all types. Decriminalization increases safety, independence, and choice.
 

Lickylick

Decriminalize, Regulate, license.
Jan 25, 2018
141
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That comparison doesn't make sense, though.

- Dentists aren't culturally stigmatized (except for in a couple of Seinfeld episodes)
- You don't work on your dentist's teeth while they're working on yours

Beyond those two obvious differences it just seems very unfair and self-interested to require one half of the equation to take all the personal risk (re: stigmatization) and financial burden (re: licensing fees) while the other side offers nothing.

You've unknowingly hit on a bunch of reasons why legalization/regulation is bad. :LOL:

A lot of people do sex work to avoid bureaucracy, and now you're asking those people to prostrate themselves in front of a panel of judges? What about the inevitable corruption and quid-pro-quos that would plague a system like that? Sex workers already don't trust cops, why would cops be involved in the panel? On average, cops are more likely to be violent domestic abusers than other men.

What happens when someone can't pass the panel? What about undocumented sex workers who can't apply for the license? What about people who are doing it for fast/emergency funds? All those groups of people are still going to do the work, because they're still going to be under whatever financial/personal pressures brought them to the idea of doing the work in the first place, so you've just created a black market for unlicensed sex workers (in which they will be subject to the same -- or much worse -- dangers they are subject to under current conditions.

"Client privacy privilege" sounds terrible. Why do you think ID screening works so well for so many people? Part of the reason is that clients, on average, will be better behaved if they know any transgressions could make waves in their personal lives. Now you've taken away that leverage and feeling of security from sex workers. Would you have them consult an enormous legal manual to determine when they can share/publicize a client's information to protect them self or others, without the risk of being sued and losing thei license? What about clients who dox sex workers, nothing in your plan to address or punish that? Why isn't it a two-way street? You say that SWs would also benefit from the privacy privilege, but unless clients are also on a registry somewhere that would not be true.

In short: the type of system you describe is bad for sex workers. It removes their independence, and maintains an underground market with all of violence and coercion endemic to underground markets of all types. Decriminalization increases safety, independence, and choice.

I think you just like to argue, instead of picking apart at everyone's ideas why don't you introduce your own version of how you would create a environment where it is safe and legal for everyone.

Like all other business owners the cost of expenses is passed on to the clients, Last time I checked the financial burdens of a business is not the concerns of it customers. You don't take a taxi pay your fare and then kick in extra for ware and tare on is vehicle while you where a passenger, you don't go to your pharmacy and pay for your prescription, then pay a little extra to help pay their rent or the pharmacist student loan. All businesses have to be licensed in one way or another and to say that sex workers would be burdened with the cost of a licensing fee is kind of moot.

A lot of people in sex work choose sex work cause the money is good when it's flowing and they don't have to pay taxes on said money. Some people are in sex work because they are being manipulated or forced, their are many reason why someone chooses to work in sex the industry. And their are many more that don't choose to work in the sex industry. How do you tell them apart.

Just because you have a penis or a vagina doesn't mean you're going to be a good sex worker it's a personality thing. Just like not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, dentist, teacher, firefighter, police officer, these are all profession that require someone looking to go into said professions to have multiple interviews and sit before panels.

Undocumented sex workers shouldn't be doing business if they can't apply for license.

If you haven't noticed sex work as we know it is black market to use your words.

Client privacy would work in the manner that if the client was aggressive, abusive, to providers they could go to the police with the clients information that they got before seeing them and file a complaint or press charges with the police. How is getting a copy of their clients id in any way taking away a providers feeling of security? If said client is a dangerous person who commits violent acts or crimes against a providers then they are in breach of client provider privilege's. If a provider uses a clients information to negatively affect her client for no other reason than to hurt that person then her actions should be reprimanded also.
 

gibarian

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2019
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I think you just like to argue, instead of picking apart at everyone's ideas why don't you introduce your own version of how you would create a environment where it is safe and legal for everyone.
Full decriminalization, that's it. I don't have "my own version". Sex workers should be in charge of their own industry, and they overwhelmingly support decrim over regs. I happen to agree with their arguments because they're extremely persuasive.

Just because you have a penis or a vagina doesn't mean you're going to be a good sex worker it's a personality thing. Just like not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, dentist, teacher, firefighter, police officer, these are all profession that require someone looking to go into said professions to have multiple interviews and sit before panels.
Wait, who determines which personalities qualify? Because I can guarantee you that I'm into different personalities than you are, and you're into different personalities than they next guy, and then the fourth guy isn't into personalities at all, he's just into huge boobs and sloppy DFK

At the end of the day you're just suggesting a new class system, composed of the elite who can complete licensing, and then everybody else who can't, and who will be subject to all/more of the danger and struggle they currently face (and be subject to government fines for working unlicensed, as a bonus). And then over time the unlicensed workers will compete with the licensed workers, and cheap clients will flock to the black market, and then we're exactly where we started, only worse for a lot of people. Sorry dude, your ideas are just disastrous for all parties (but especially for SWs).
 

gibarian

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2019
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Seriously? Are any other companies in charge of their own industries? None that I'm aware.
You usually make fair ponts, but you're off your rocker on this one.
You're naive if you don't think that's the reality in most industries. Ever heard of lobbying firms?

But that's beside the point; this industry is different from others. In what other industry is getting unexpectedly robbed, assaulted, or killed a daily concern?

As long as you're still envisioning people meeting discreetly, in private locations, for one-on-one encounters, none of your comparisons to other industries are relevant. If you want to imagine a world where clients have their identity on the line and go to see escorts like they would go to see another professional (ie. you show your ID to the receptionist and sign in) then you can talk about that.
 

Demonoid007

Support decriminalization!
Apr 15, 2019
25
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That comparison doesn't make sense, though.

- Dentists aren't culturally stigmatized (except for in a couple of Seinfeld episodes)
- You don't work on your dentist's teeth while they're working on yours

Beyond those two obvious differences it just seems very unfair and self-interested to require one half of the equation to take all the personal risk (re: stigmatization) and financial burden (re: licensing fees) while the other side offers nothing.
Well of course no analogies are perfect. That's a given. Saying it does not make sense, is however, quite different, and frankly unwarranted in this case. Addressing your points:

1. Stigma. This is addressed over time and decriminalization starts us on that road. You cannot legislate De-stigmatization (nice concept, though)
2. Of course you don't work on the dentist, but that is not germane. The point is that it is a client-provider relationship.

Assuming this now makes more sense for you, let's talk about licensing.

There is a reason we license practitioners of many arts. Its doable, and allows society to exert control over an industry. This in time creates trust in the profession (addressing stigma over time).

Is it more onerous than just decriminalizing? Yes, it is. But just because a solution is not perfect, it means is bad. In a licensed system, hopefully better and safer clients will move to licensed providers. And like in any other business, the providers will be able to pass on the costs to the clients through their fees.

Unlicensed providers will see less favorable conditions, and that would make that part of the industry less attractive. This in turn will allow law enforcement to better focus their efforts, not bothering the licensed providers, and instead been able to better address trafficking and other issues.

Should there be requisites for the clients? I would leave that to the providers. It is not that different than the vetting process the currently exists. If there is a provider that I like and they request a test as a condition for booking, I would happily provide. However, I would not make it mandatory for clients, instead I would leave each service provider to define their own rules. As I stated previously, a licensing framework is more likely to succeed if we don't make it too onerous.
 
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Taraparker

Active member
Dec 30, 2018
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Giberian is right, SW’s around the world are calling for decriminalization for the reasons he’s already mentioned.

If you want to talk about places that are legalized like Nevada and Australia, regulations look different across the board, even between Australia’s states. Some of these regulations include, licensing, health checks, which are being discussed right now. Some regulations include everything needs to be protected, cbj and dental dams for DATY only! This makes sense since if we would be subject to testing we would need to work much safer if we want to continue to work, same reason why dentists wear gloves and why surgeons wear masks, they are regulated to do so. Also some regulations include in some places that you cannot discuss services and rates before hand, those are only discussed in person and not advertised. In Nevada you are only legally allowed to work in their ranches, which means no independents and those ladies charge an enormous rate.

One thing Nevada and Australia have in common is that the rates are really really expensive, if you want to see us for $500+/hr with covered services that’s because of regulations and all the costs will be passed down to the client. I also think supply of providers would be lower since most people would prefer not to be part of a database as stigma still exists where escorting is legalized.But like I said regulations seem to be different everywhere.

Personally, I see pros and cons between decrim and legalization. I am in a privileged position so legalization SW could potentially work in my favour. As for more marginalized workers decriminalization makes a lot more sense, therefore I’d prefer to work towards decriminalization. If let’s say Canada decided to go with legalization they would need to work heavily with sex workers (since we are the experts after all) to come up with regulations that work for both the client and provider safety.
 
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Demonoid007

Support decriminalization!
Apr 15, 2019
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Personally, I see pros and cons between decrim and legalization. I am in a privileged position so legalization SW could potentially work in my favour. As for more marginalized workers decriminalization makes a lot more sense, therefore I’d prefer to work towards decriminalization. If let’s say Canada decided to go with legalization they would need to work heavily with sex workers (since we are the experts after all) to come up with regulations that work for both the client and provider safety.
I agree with most of your point, except that it seems to imply is one or the other (and many see it that way), while I see it as one, then the other.

Personally, I think decriminalization is a must and most come first, as current laws do nothing to protect anyone. Legalization or Regulation is a different issue, and for me, a "nice to have" to add after decriminalization. I think some regulations may improve all participant's safety, and over time it may even drive some community acceptance. And I fully agree that to develop any regulation the authorities should have heavy consultations with providers, as they are as you rightly said, the experts.
 
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Theredmilf

Ruby Lust, The Red MILF
Dec 9, 2016
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There already is at least the starting point of a consensus on a new legal framework in Canada which you can read here: Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform – Fighting for reform of Canada's sex work laws

Unfortunately, no government seems to want to get behind pulling the trigger on legal changes due to the stigma and conflation of SW with trafficking. Further, we have a broad swath of the country that would like to move in the other direction and make it even more illegal. And still others who want less government regulation altogether. So for those proposing a regulatory model, I’m curious which party you think would back this? And then how would you propose to square it with the Constitution? Those who were around in 2007-2012 will remember the crux of the challenge to the old law was that it violated the Charter rights of SWs to personal safety. You might recall the Pickton murders and women missing & murdered along the Hyway of Tears.

Although I’m personally and professionally compelled by arguments for better client-service & safety for my own best interests, joe-public is not having it. In fact and ironically, in the Bedford case the Crown used excerpts from here on TERB to try and demonstrate SW as a predatory industry where clients should be criminalized. Consider that for a moment.

My own view is that we’re actually in a decent holding pattern right now where, despite the legal threat hovering, most police forces are taking hands off approach with very few charges being laid. So the best way to create more safety is on a voluntary basis, to connect with those who are safe. We need more supports & community among SWs to help improve things and fair practices on both sides.

I don’t need government regulations to explain ethical businesses practices to me, I’ve got this. Please support us in raising the bar from within.
 

whiskeysour

Active member
Nov 28, 2015
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My own view is that we’re actually in a decent holding pattern right now where, despite the legal threat hovering, most police forces are taking hands off approach with very few charges being laid. So the best way to create more safety is on a voluntary basis, to connect with those who are safe. We need more supports & community among SWs to help improve things and fair practices on both sides.
Thank you, Theredmilf. I wasn't going to say it until somebody else did, given the strong opinions on this board, but the truth is that the more I think of things the more I am in favour of keeping the status quo, at least until such time as something drastically changes.

It's not so much that I think the status quo is an ideal arrangement as my firm belief that the law is no remedy. I see no realistic pathway where changes in law and bureaucracy lead to a better experience other than in some imagined utopia where visiting SPs will be like going to the dentist (lol!) with your employer no doubt providing insurance coverage for SP services and you telling your boss over a beer after work how your last appointment went. This is not going to happen.

What will actually happen in reality is one of two circumstances, depending on which political party crafts the laws…

On the right, we have your Bible-beating church-moms who would change the law to put us all in the stocks if they could. There's not much hope that more illegality makes things better for anybody. And don't forget, the church-going right-wing types hate Johns every bit as much as they dislike providers, if not more.

And on the left, we have clients barely able to afford visiting an SP more than once or twice a year and shelling out $500-1000 for the privilege of licking a plastic dental dam, with providers constantly harassed by the ever-shifting requirements of some panel of faceless bureaucrats. Don't forget that the stigma against clients will also not evaporate the moment it is legalised. You really think you'll get to keep your job teaching little kids at the local private school after Superintendent Spineless finds out from shrieking parents at the PTA meeting that you're visiting legal brothels? Do you honestly think you'll be invited to the next church picnic after being outed as a John? Guess again.

It is tempting to think otherwise, being as we are within our terb bubble, but the outside world looks down on men who pay for sex. While some within the mainstream public might view providers with some measure of disgust, such views are in the aggregate tempered with equal parts pity and even some concern. We, on the other hand, are simply viewed as predators. Just look to the law as it currently stands: criminalizing our behaviour, but not that of providers. Frankly, polite society wishes that people like us didn't exist at all. Opening up our lifestyle choices to broader scrutiny from the public will not likely lead to anything good for clients, and very mixed results at best for providers.

I've spoken before about how the illegality of our acts makes us prey to blackmail. This is and remains true. But it also true that criminal convictions are rare, and police are not out enforcing this law, at least not under the Trudeau government. What we have now is a sort of detente of constantly negotiated comprises between clients and providers. Some providers ask for verification and some ask for deposits, while some do not, each according to their comfort level, risk tolerance, and their individual circumstances. Clients who do not wish to provide such details visit providers who do not require it, or provide a reference as an alternative. Self-regulating organizations such as OIC are free to appear in order to provide safety and screening for some, but such organisations are entirely voluntary for providers and no one is forced to do or join anything they don't want to. Nobody is entirely satisfied, but nobody is entirely dissatisfied either. Prices are affordable, and services are not regulated by some grim panel of medical "experts". I'm afraid to say it, but this is likely the best we're going to get in the near to medium term. In the meantime, we should all do our best to support grass-roots efforts by people like Theredmilf to improve their industry from within, without poking the ever-present hornet's nest of mainstream society.

For those who are in favour of decriminalisation stopping just short of full legalisation, understand that while this would definitely present a better version of the present status quo which I would actually be in favour of in principle, I don't see a way to get there. I could be wrong, but I believe such a change in the law would probably only occur against a greater societal backdrop of larger efforts to control and regulate the industry, where full legalisation and bureaucratisation would also be on the table alongside mere decriminalisation. Given society's rather ambivalent and in some ways hostile attitude towards clients, and their somewhat patronising and pitying stance towards providers, decisions will no doubt be made to the detriment of all. If you think a broader "reopening of the books" on sex laws will make your SP experience better, you better think again. Ask for change, and you will certainly get it. As many a wise man once said: be careful what you wish for! I for one have no desire to see society's moral microscope aimed in our direction yet again.
 
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JohnnyFever

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2018
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Legalization would create a two-tier industry. The regulated providers would be expensive and provide only safe experiences (CBJ, etc.). There would also be a lot of providers who would continue to cater to those who want cheaper, more open services. A lot would depend on enforcement - the cops don't have the resources to expand beyond dealing with sex trafficking or obvious criminal activity, so I have no idea how it would be handled.

Decriminalization makes far more sense from a provider safety perspective, but that is not usually the real concern for lawmakers.
 

CuddleBuddy2

Sensuality Seeker
May 20, 2018
574
600
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1.Decriminalize for both SWs and Clients.
Don't know how this will happen but hopefully soon. Consenting adults shouldn't be penalised for having fun. Would like to see an all female legal department that handle's SW concerns.

2.Testing should be normalized and become mandatory.

There was a poll on twitter or terb on how frequently clients get tested and some people voted that they never got tested. That is alarming and of real concern to the community.

I believe for this to really take affect the popular Agencies and Spas should require all their clients to show STD test results not older than 2 months. The providers should get tested more frequently and test results should be exchanged on meetup.
 
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