Do you think Canada and European countries are much more progressive about sex work than the USA?

[TheQuestion]

The more I meet international people, the more I feel less good about the USA. I think the US is a very judgmental culture. For instance, if a guy wants to see an SP, people have all this prejudice around him like "loser" or "you can't' get laid for free" or even "you are taking advantage of them." ' In regards to the SP, what I'm told is that the US laws make them very difficult for them to do their job safely. I do believe their more female sexual liberation in the US than male sexual freedom.


At the same time, I've realized that it's not only those guys, but rather anyone who has an interest in sex, even non-misogynists like dating coaches or playboys get a bad rap. Culture and government always seem to want to be involved in people's personal lives. Meanwhile, it appears that the separation between private life and public life is stronger in other countries. I remember a Latin American friend told me he didn't care what people did during their personal time. What mattered to him as they did their job right.


I remember this Ukrainian girl told me, "It's normal to like sex."

 

[y2kmark]

The more I meet international people, the more I feel less good about the USA. I think the US is a very judgmental culture. For instance, if a guy wants to see an SP, people have all this prejudice around him like "loser" or "you can't' get laid for free" or even "you are taking advantage of them." ' In regards to the SP, what I'm told is that the US laws make them very difficult for them to do their job safely. I do believe their more female sexual liberation in the US than male sexual freedom.


At the same time, I've realized that it's not only those guys, but rather anyone who has an interest in sex, even non-misogynists like dating coaches or playboys get a bad rap. Culture and government always seem to want to be involved in people's personal lives. Meanwhile, it appears that the separation between private life and public life is stronger in other countries. I remember a Latin American friend told me he didn't care what people did during their personal time. What mattered to him as they did their job right.


I remember this Ukrainian girl told me, "It's normal to like sex."

Dave in Phoenix is going to be your subject matter expert there...

 

[stevieray]

Well, sadly, Canada WAS, at least, tolerant about the sex trade, up until numb nuts Conservative leader Stephen Harper set us back about 40 years with their stupid, idiotic, Bill C-36, endorsing the so called `Nordic` model!! The good news? To date, I haven`t heard of any convictions of these laws! Could it be law enforcement here recognizes that they have better things to do, then to enforce an unjust law? As for you guys in the US....given all that`s going on with that pathetic loser Trump refusing to leave office gracefully...seriously, I think you guys have much more serious issues to deal with. But, as far as the sex trade in both our great countries, I remain optimistic, that maybe, just maybe common sense might someday prevail! JMHO

 

[asuran]

From personal experience and what I have 'generally' seen, I 'generally' agree.
Tho within all regions it does depend on province to province and city to city as well.

 

[Brolaf]

Americans are just kind of weird that way. So basically you're allowed to own tigers as housepets and have unlimited automatic weapons but god help you if you want to pay for a blowjob.

 

[fall]

Well, sadly, Canada WAS, at least, tolerant about the sex trade, up until numb nuts Conservative leader Stephen Harper set us back about 40 years with their stupid, idiotic, Bill C-36, endorsing the so called `Nordic` model!! The good news? To date, I haven`t heard of any convictions of these laws! Could it be law enforcement here recognizes that they have better things to do, then to enforce an unjust law? As for you guys in the US....given all that`s going on with that pathetic loser Trump refusing to leave office gracefully...seriously, I think you guys have much more serious issues to deal with. But, as far as the sex trade in both our great countries, I remain optimistic, that maybe, just maybe common sense might someday prevail! JMHO

I did not see any effort of Liberal government to reverse this Bill. So, do not blame Conservatives.

 

[fall]

The more I meet international people, the more I feel less good about the USA. I think the US is a very judgmental culture. For instance, if a guy wants to see an SP, people have all this prejudice around him like "loser" or "you can't' get laid for free" or even "you are taking advantage of them." ' In regards to the SP, what I'm told is that the US laws make them very difficult for them to do their job safely. I do believe their more female sexual liberation in the US than male sexual freedom.

Well, at least U.S. has legal brothels (too overpriced though).

 

[jalimon]

Well, sadly, Canada WAS, at least, tolerant about the sex trade, up until numb nuts Conservative leader Stephen Harper set us back about 40 years with their stupid, idiotic, Bill C-36, endorsing the so called `Nordic` model!! The good news? To date, I haven`t heard of any convictions of these laws! Could it be law enforcement here recognizes that they have better things to do, then to enforce an unjust law?

haha You are dead on here I cannot say much more but yes LE only cares about trafficking and especially anything that involves minors. That's it. You need to understand that LE's staff are regular client

 

[coolmanfever]

i think in general Germany has the most positive and liberal view about sex trade. Pre covid, FKK clubs are open everywhere for local or tourists to go take spa and fuck naked girls onsite. I talked to local germany guys and they told me most of their wife know what is going on in FKK and are cool with them visiting FKK as long they take good care of their family.

 

[y2kmark]

Americans are just kind of weird that way. So basically you're allowed to own tigers as housepets and have unlimited automatic weapons but god help you if you want to pay for a blowjob.

SEMI automatic weapons - readily converted to full auto (machine gun) by anyone with a 3D printer. Most of the good BBBJ providers have migrated to Canada...

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Dave, in Phoenix, is going to be your subject matter expert there...

Hello!
Why do you suppose I haven't rented a lady in Phoenix in 10 years but enjoy Canada!

Yes, very negative attitudes and, of course, legal risks. All the agencies closed in Phoenix and other US cities years ago since it is a felony, and every money transaction is money laundering. Many agency owners went to prison and took plea deals because, like the 35 great older women at the Phoenix Goddess Temple, faced up to 80 years in prison (more than murder) for offering hand jobs as part of their religious beliefs. Most took probation, but a felony conviction, and of course, the leader went to prison.

Not just in Phoenix but all over the US, many arrests daily in many cities, including decoys. Huge funding all over the US by the huge anti-sex groups that believe all sexwork is trafficking since no women in their right mind would do sexwork unless abused or trafficked. You have that in Canada, but most police only go after real crimes or real underage vs. decoys in the US and don't enforce C36.

The overall attitude of citizens outside of the religious groups is far more liberal. Still, the anti-sex groups fund the police sting operations using the excuse of sex trafficking when mostly consenting adults.

In Canada, for my more intimacy interest vs. just the usual, I find Europeans, especially the many I've met at strip clubs for decades, overall more intimate and best of all, were the Eastern Europeans. That is very general since also met wonderful Canadian escorts and in the nude-reverse adult rubs in Sauga I use to go to so much since enjoying giving massage - Esalen trained and have taught couples.

Europe, as suggested, is also much more liberal-minded. Although, my 2019 visit to FKk clubs in Frankfurt was a bit too much. However, I had a wonderful intimacy experience at a Frankfurt massage parlor. It was kind of a hole in the wall but met a wonderful like-minded massage gal.

Back in the US, law reform is dead, especially since we lost a very well fought with great legal arguments at the 9th Circuit a few years ago. I have been deeply involved in the legal issues, and it was an outstanding appeal brief and argument. But the law is the problem, and your Charter of Rights is far better than our legal doctrines, which is why you have won on the safety of person provisions to toss the old Canadian law and now the defeat of C36 in the recent Ontario case.

 

[lessjamie7]

From personal experience and what I have 'generally' seen, I 'generally' agree.
Tho within all regions it does depend on province to province and city to city as well.

It's really dependant on how fucked up your religious background is. Don't get me wrong they're all fucked up just some more than others when it comes to sex.

LJ

 

[TheQuestion]

Hello!
Why do you suppose I haven't rented a lady in Phoenix in 10 years but enjoy Canada!

Yes, very negative attitudes and, of course, legal risks. All the agencies closed in Phoenix and other US cities years ago since it is a felony, and every money transaction is money laundering. Many agency owners went to prison and took plea deals because, like the 35 great older women at the Phoenix Goddess Temple, faced up to 80 years in prison (more than murder) for offering hand jobs as part of their religious beliefs. Most took probation, but a felony conviction, and of course, the leader went to prison.

Not just in Phoenix but all over the US, many arrests daily in many cities, including decoys. Huge funding all over the US by the huge anti-sex groups that believe all sexwork is trafficking since no women in their right mind would do sexwork unless abused or trafficked. You have that in Canada, but most police only go after real crimes or real underage vs. decoys in the US and don't enforce C36.

The overall attitude of citizens outside of the religious groups is far more liberal. Still, the anti-sex groups fund the police sting operations using the excuse of sex trafficking when mostly consenting adults.

In Canada, for my more intimacy interest vs. just the usual, I find Europeans, especially the many I've met at strip clubs for decades, overall more intimate and best of all, were the Eastern Europeans. That is very general since also met wonderful Canadian escorts and in the nude-reverse adult rubs in Sauga I use to go to so much since enjoying giving massage - Esalen trained and have taught couples.

Europe, as suggested, is also much more liberal-minded. Although, my 2019 visit to FKk clubs in Frankfurt was a bit too much. However, I had a wonderful intimacy experience at a Frankfurt massage parlor. It was kind of a hole in the wall but met a wonderful like-minded massage gal.

Back in the US, law reform is dead, especially since we lost a very well fought with great legal arguments at the 9th Circuit a few years ago. I have been deeply involved in the legal issues, and it was an outstanding appeal brief and argument. But the law is the problem, and your Charter of Rights is far better than our legal doctrines, which is why you have won on the safety of person provisions to toss the old Canadian law and now the defeat of C36 in the recent Ontario case.

I feel a lot of Americans would get a heart attack at a FKK club. Just briefly is it pretty much naked girls walking around and you pick he girl you like and go to the room? Also where do this "anti-sex" groups come from? Do you think they'll back off.

 

[einar]

Hello!
Why do you suppose I haven't rented a lady in Phoenix in 10 years but enjoy Canada!

Yes, very negative attitudes and, of course, legal risks. All the agencies closed in Phoenix and other US cities years ago since it is a felony, and every money transaction is money laundering. Many agency owners went to prison and took plea deals because, like the 35 great older women at the Phoenix Goddess Temple, faced up to 80 years in prison (more than murder) for offering hand jobs as part of their religious beliefs. Most took probation, but a felony conviction, and of course, the leader went to prison.

Not just in Phoenix but all over the US, many arrests daily in many cities, including decoys. Huge funding all over the US by the huge anti-sex groups that believe all sexwork is trafficking since no women in their right mind would do sexwork unless abused or trafficked. You have that in Canada, but most police only go after real crimes or real underage vs. decoys in the US and don't enforce C36.

The overall attitude of citizens outside of the religious groups is far more liberal. Still, the anti-sex groups fund the police sting operations using the excuse of sex trafficking when mostly consenting adults.

In Canada, for my more intimacy interest vs. just the usual, I find Europeans, especially the many I've met at strip clubs for decades, overall more intimate and best of all, were the Eastern Europeans. That is very general since also met wonderful Canadian escorts and in the nude-reverse adult rubs in Sauga I use to go to so much since enjoying giving massage - Esalen trained and have taught couples.

Europe, as suggested, is also much more liberal-minded. Although, my 2019 visit to FKk clubs in Frankfurt was a bit too much. However, I had a wonderful intimacy experience at a Frankfurt massage parlor. It was kind of a hole in the wall but met a wonderful like-minded massage gal.

Back in the US, law reform is dead, especially since we lost a very well fought with great legal arguments at the 9th Circuit a few years ago. I have been deeply involved in the legal issues, and it was an outstanding appeal brief and argument. But the law is the problem, and your Charter of Rights is far better than our legal doctrines, which is why you have won on the safety of person provisions to toss the old Canadian law and now the defeat of C36 in the recent Ontario case.

Dave, thank you for this reply, coming from your deep knowledge bank on this issue. We could have guessed what you would say, but still it is helpful to read it. The US is a strangely moralistic and old-fashioned country, even though it was founded on principles of freedom and in many ways *is* very free. I keep thinking of its Prohibition era, when from 1920 to 1933 alcohol was suddenly illegal in the US. Psychologically, that's related to this modern sex-for-hire issue, I'd say.

 

[MTPockets]

Well, at least U.S. has legal brothels (too overpriced though).

This is sort of misleading to say the least. There's only one county, in one State (Nevada) that has legal brothels in the USA. Other than that one small area - the sex trade is illegal as hell in the rest of the country - for all parties involved. The USA is down right draconian and backwards as far as sex work is concerned. It's the religious radicals that want to control everyone that happens to be different than them.

 

[jalimon]

The USA is down right draconian and backwards as far as sex work is concerned. It's the religious radicals that want to control everyone that happens to be different than them.

Exactly! These radicals are probably thinking 'Hey if I am not getting any sex nobody will!'

 

[malata]

1 word. amsterdam window dressing. nuff said

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Just briefly, is it pretty much naked girls walking around and you pick he girl you like and go to the room? Also, where do this "anti-sex" groups come from? Do you think they'll back off.

Yes, on FKK, in my limited experience, very mechanical. I was thinking more like a strip club with a nice intro and some communication other than the goal of dragging you to a room for sex. I realize the language issue, although many speak English in Germany. I had better interaction other than just sex in Thailand with a far more language problem. Or in the Phillippines, although I had a hard time with the Tagalog accents. Other guys may have very different experiences and only went to two FKKs and only once to each. I also did a lot of normal tourist stuff while there for 10 days.

In the U.S., the anti groups started decades ago, starting from Christian groups and then spread more widely with Trump-like lies and mass propaganda that all sexwork was an abuse of women. The legal crackdown started decades ago, and Phoenix was ground zero and taught other cities Police how to do stings, pass laws to restrict, etc. All the local escort boards that were sharing good information about bad clients, the guy that almost killed a dozen escorts that I worked with PD to get (now in prison for 100 years), clients pretending to be LE, etc., shut down after Arizona passed a law that made it a felony just to encourage "prostitution." This was and continues to be led by Ms. McCain (wife of deceased famous Senator) and a large group from Ariz State Univ.

Obviously, it's not only in Phoneix, but that is where lots of the anti-sexwork groups started. Now they are huge national groups funding police stings all over etc. I have reviewed their IRS Form 990s for tax-exempt organizations, and they take in $millions in grants and donations to fund their Trump-like hysteria campaign on the horrors of sex work as abuse of women.

No, there are no signs of backing off. In some cities like Seattle, there are great sexworker groups, but they mainly talk to themselves without much hope of getting anything changed. They also are more about street hookers, which is totally different - a public nuisance - vs. in private consenting adult sexwork, which is my only interest.

 

[mandrill]

Hello!
Why do you suppose I haven't rented a lady in Phoenix in 10 years but enjoy Canada!

Yes, very negative attitudes and, of course, legal risks. All the agencies closed in Phoenix and other US cities years ago since it is a felony, and every money transaction is money laundering. Many agency owners went to prison and took plea deals because, like the 35 great older women at the Phoenix Goddess Temple, faced up to 80 years in prison (more than murder) for offering hand jobs as part of their religious beliefs. Most took probation, but a felony conviction, and of course, the leader went to prison.

Not just in Phoenix but all over the US, many arrests daily in many cities, including decoys. Huge funding all over the US by the huge anti-sex groups that believe all sexwork is trafficking since no women in their right mind would do sexwork unless abused or trafficked. You have that in Canada, but most police only go after real crimes or real underage vs. decoys in the US and don't enforce C36.

The overall attitude of citizens outside of the religious groups is far more liberal. Still, the anti-sex groups fund the police sting operations using the excuse of sex trafficking when mostly consenting adults.

In Canada, for my more intimacy interest vs. just the usual, I find Europeans, especially the many I've met at strip clubs for decades, overall more intimate and best of all, were the Eastern Europeans. That is very general since also met wonderful Canadian escorts and in the nude-reverse adult rubs in Sauga I use to go to so much since enjoying giving massage - Esalen trained and have taught couples.

Europe, as suggested, is also much more liberal-minded. Although, my 2019 visit to FKk clubs in Frankfurt was a bit too much. However, I had a wonderful intimacy experience at a Frankfurt massage parlor. It was kind of a hole in the wall but met a wonderful like-minded massage gal.

Back in the US, law reform is dead, especially since we lost a very well fought with great legal arguments at the 9th Circuit a few years ago. I have been deeply involved in the legal issues, and it was an outstanding appeal brief and argument. But the law is the problem, and your Charter of Rights is far better than our legal doctrines, which is why you have won on the safety of person provisions to toss the old Canadian law and now the defeat of C36 in the recent Ontario case.

Thread hijack.

I hang out on Twitter DM w a dude who's US LE or on the staff of some state or federal DoJ somewhere down there. Since he can't nail me and just seems to want to shoot the shit, I chat w him. He says that almost all prositution has now been stamped out in the US, aside from Oriental and Latino low end rub n tugs and the $1,000 per hour Twitter girls. In your opinion, is that correct?

He also told me that the prices for the top end girls are now so high that some large cities literally cannot support escorts. He told me that he was shocked a NY touring girl actually stopped off in KC.

"Hmmm," I responded. "I am guessing that KC has as many horny realtors and dentists as any other mid size US city. So why not?"

He then pointed out that at $1,000+ per hour, most of those girls were not an attractive buy for middle class guys and were aiming towards super rich Donald Trump type dudes. He added that of the half-dozen Boston-based escorts, 2 were leaving for the SF / NYC / LA / South FL circuit because Boston just doesn't give them a customer base!

I was flabbergasted by all of this.

 

[curr3n_c1000]

I don't think Canada is progressive at all on this subject. This country seems like it wants to play both sides.