The Pandemic That Wasn't

[squeezer]

The US News is never going to put up drone strikes as a running death count. They didn't do it under Obama and they haven't done it as Trump increases the pace.

Covid-19 isn't the flu. It doesn't transmit the same, it doesn't have the same effects, and it is a novel disease.

It is a pandemic. (I noticed you all seem to think that "pandemic" only counts if it is lethal. That's not what the word means.)

That you judge your personal risk as low given your age cohort is your judgment call.

It's folks deciding they know better than the medical professionals who also through actually dealing with the virus learn more and more every day.

All the time/money spent to bring down the numbers and not flood the ICU wards will be at risk with the Amigo mentality.

 

[Malibuk]

German Official Leaks Report Denouncing Corona as ‘A Global False Alarm
Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry.
Some of the report key passages are:
-The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level.
-The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation).
-Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany] during the influenza wave 2017/18.
-The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm.
-A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News.

So far, so bad. But it gets worse.
The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”.
More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus.
The reason is a scandal in the making:
A Corona-focused German healthcare system is postponing life-saving surgery and delaying or reducing treatment for non-Corona patients.

Berlin in Denial Mode. The scientists fight back.
Initially, the government tried to dismiss the report as “the work of one employee”, and its contents as “his own opinion” – while the journalists closed ranks, no questions asked, with the politicians.
But the 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities.
The report was the initiative of a department of the interior ministry called Unit KM4 and in charge with the “Protection of critical infrastructures”.
This is also where the German official turned whistleblower, Stephen Kohn, work(ed), and from where he leaked it to the media.
The authors of the report issued a joint press release already on Mai 11th, berating the government for ignoring expert advise, and asking for the interior minister to officially comment upon the experts joint statement:
“Therapeutic and preventive measures should never bring more harm than the illness itself. Their aim should be to protect the risk groups, without endegearing the availibilty of medical care and the health of the whole population, as it is unfortunately occurring”
“We in the scientific and medical praxis are experiencing the secondary damages of the Corona-measures on our patients on a dialy basis.”
“We therefore ask the Federal Ministry of the Interior, to comment upon our press release, and we hope for a pertinent discussion regarding the [Corona] measures, one that leads to the best possible solution for the whole population”

At the time of writing, the German government had yet to react.
But the facts are – sadly – vindicating the medical experts’ worries.
On Mai 23 the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.”
Inside, a aeading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”.

Shooting the Whistleblower. Ignoring the Message.
As Der Spiegel reported on Mai 15th: “Stephen Kohn [the whistleblower] has since been suspended from duty. He was advised to obtain a lawyer and his work laptop was confiscated.”
Kohn had originally leaked the report on May 9th to the liberal-conservative magazine Tichys Einblick one of Germany’s most popular alternative media outlets.
News of the report went mainstream in Germany during the second week of Mai – but already in the third week media and politicians alike stopped discussing the issue by refusing to comment upon it.
Emblematic was the approach taken by Günter Krings, the representative for Interior Minister Horst Seehofer – the whistleblower’s boss:
Asked it he would treat the document seriously, Krings replied:
“If you start analyzing papers like that, then pretty soon you’ll be inviting the guys with the tin foil hats to parliamentary hearings.”
Men in tin foil hats – Aluhut in German – is a term used to describe people who believe in conspiracy theories.
Indeed one article by Der Spiegel adressing the Corona protest movement and the consequences of the leaked report contained the word “conspiracy” no fewer than 17 times!
And no discussions of the issues raised by the report itself.
Outside Germany the news has virtually gone unreported.

The Protest Movement – or “Corona-Rebellen”.
Germans begun demonstrating against Lockdowns as early as April.
And thousands of citizens keep showing up at demos every week-end, even as the government is easing the restrictions.
The demos are not merely against restrictions, which have actually been comparatively mild compared to many other Western countries.
The demos question the entire Corona Narrative, and even more its principals, especially the role Bill Gates is playing, as the WHO second biggest donor (the first one since Trump suspended U.S. contribution).
Indeed the biggest such demos took place in Stuttgart on May 9th, where tens of thousands people assempled to say no – to the NWO.
Germans are saying no to any orwellian solution the government might one day impose out of a questionable “emergency status”, from mass surveillance Apps to mandatory vaccinations.
The leaked report has proved their fears to be well founded.
At least as far as the fake nature of the “Corona pandemic” is concerned.
The rest might soon follow.

 

[doggystyle99]

German Official Leaks Report Denouncing Corona as ‘A Global False Alarm
Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry.
Some of the report key passages are:
-The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level.
-The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation).
-Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany] during the influenza wave 2017/18.
-The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm.
-A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News.

So far, so bad. But it gets worse.
The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”.
More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus.
The reason is a scandal in the making:
A Corona-focused German healthcare system is postponing life-saving surgery and delaying or reducing treatment for non-Corona patients.

Berlin in Denial Mode. The scientists fight back.
Initially, the government tried to dismiss the report as “the work of one employee”, and its contents as “his own opinion” – while the journalists closed ranks, no questions asked, with the politicians.
But the 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities.
The report was the initiative of a department of the interior ministry called Unit KM4 and in charge with the “Protection of critical infrastructures”.
This is also where the German official turned whistleblower, Stephen Kohn, work(ed), and from where he leaked it to the media.
The authors of the report issued a joint press release already on Mai 11th, berating the government for ignoring expert advise, and asking for the interior minister to officially comment upon the experts joint statement:
“Therapeutic and preventive measures should never bring more harm than the illness itself. Their aim should be to protect the risk groups, without endegearing the availibilty of medical care and the health of the whole population, as it is unfortunately occurring”
“We in the scientific and medical praxis are experiencing the secondary damages of the Corona-measures on our patients on a dialy basis.”
“We therefore ask the Federal Ministry of the Interior, to comment upon our press release, and we hope for a pertinent discussion regarding the [Corona] measures, one that leads to the best possible solution for the whole population”

At the time of writing, the German government had yet to react.
But the facts are – sadly – vindicating the medical experts’ worries.
On Mai 23 the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.”
Inside, a aeading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”.

Shooting the Whistleblower. Ignoring the Message.
As Der Spiegel reported on Mai 15th: “Stephen Kohn [the whistleblower] has since been suspended from duty. He was advised to obtain a lawyer and his work laptop was confiscated.”
Kohn had originally leaked the report on May 9th to the liberal-conservative magazine Tichys Einblick one of Germany’s most popular alternative media outlets.
News of the report went mainstream in Germany during the second week of Mai – but already in the third week media and politicians alike stopped discussing the issue by refusing to comment upon it.
Emblematic was the approach taken by Günter Krings, the representative for Interior Minister Horst Seehofer – the whistleblower’s boss:
Asked it he would treat the document seriously, Krings replied:
“If you start analyzing papers like that, then pretty soon you’ll be inviting the guys with the tin foil hats to parliamentary hearings.”
Men in tin foil hats – Aluhut in German – is a term used to describe people who believe in conspiracy theories.
Indeed one article by Der Spiegel adressing the Corona protest movement and the consequences of the leaked report contained the word “conspiracy” no fewer than 17 times!
And no discussions of the issues raised by the report itself.
Outside Germany the news has virtually gone unreported.

The Protest Movement – or “Corona-Rebellen”.
Germans begun demonstrating against Lockdowns as early as April.
And thousands of citizens keep showing up at demos every week-end, even as the government is easing the restrictions.
The demos are not merely against restrictions, which have actually been comparatively mild compared to many other Western countries.
The demos question the entire Corona Narrative, and even more its principals, especially the role Bill Gates is playing, as the WHO second biggest donor (the first one since Trump suspended U.S. contribution).
Indeed the biggest such demos took place in Stuttgart on May 9th, where tens of thousands people assempled to say no – to the NWO.
Germans are saying no to any orwellian solution the government might one day impose out of a questionable “emergency status”, from mass surveillance Apps to mandatory vaccinations.
The leaked report has proved their fears to be well founded.
At least as far as the fake nature of the “Corona pandemic” is concerned.
The rest might soon follow.

Thank you for another article from a source known for it's use of false information.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/n...port-denouncing-corona-as-global-false-alarm/

Overall, we rate the Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) a Questionable source based on extreme right wing bias, promotion of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as a complete lack of transparency with the goal to deceive readers. This is not a credible source.

Reasoning: Extreme Right, Conspiracy, Propaganda, Complete Lack of Transparency
Country: Russia

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/strategic-culture-foundation/

A German ministerial adviser has been sacked for circulating a report that described coronavirus as a “false alarm” and accused the government of causing “a large number of avoidable deaths” through its lockdown.
The 92-page document was drawn up by a civil servant in the interior ministry and leaked to a right-wing website, apparently after he felt that his misgivings were being ignored by his superiors.

“The (entirely unforced) collateral damage of the corona crisis has by now become gigantic,” it says. “The protection measures ordered by the state … have meanwhile lost any purpose but remain largely in force."


The report that was leaked and it's viewpoint is totally in line with right wing nutbars and your own talking and viewpoint that "the cure is worse than the virus" and "open businesses now"
Thankfully the German government canned the guy for writing and leaking a report that was deemed as false information but yet you found the rght wing looney tune website that published it.

 

[canada-man]

This is a scientific paper called “Full lockdown policies in Western Europe countries have no evident impacts on the COVID-19 epidemic.”

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1.full.pdf


Dr. Deborah Birx admitted that the lockdown was based on a false, gross overstatement of the true fatality rate.

These are her exact words:

“I think we underestimated, very early on, the number of asymptomatic cases. And I think we’re really beginning to understand there are people that get infected — that those symptoms are so low-grade that they don’t even know that they’re infected”

https://www.theblaze.com/news/dr-birx-coronavirus-asymptomatic-cases

Sweden did not have a lockdown. Experts predicted that it would have 40,000 COVID-19 deaths by May 1. The actual number was 2,769.

Nobel Prize-winning scientist: “the damage done by lockdown will exceed any saving of lives by a huge factor”
https://www.theblaze.com/news/nobel...showing-strict-lockdowns-were-an-overreaction

Keep parks open. The benefits of fresh air outweigh the risks of infection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...-benefits-fresh-air-outweigh-risks-infection/


Do Lockdowns Save Many Lives? In Most Places, the Data Say No.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/do-loc...data-say-no-11587930911?mod=opinion_lead_pos5


How the COVID-19 lockdown will take its own toll on health

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ill-take-its-own-toll-on-health-idUSKBN21L20C


Shutting down the schools is reprehensible.

The harm that this will end up causing children will be very large, and very long lasting.

Not just academically, but also psychologically, socially, and professionally.

We are teaching children to be terrified of something that, in reality, is not even a statistical threat or risk to them.

COVID-19 death rate by age in the U.S.:

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-us-coronavirus-deaths-ages-65-older-cdc-report-2020-3

The 1968 flu killed approximately 100,000 people in the U.S. But we still kept the schools open. And the restaurants. And the movie theaters.

33) Should we keep everything closed until there are zero germs in the world? Good luck with that!

34) The entire justification for the lockdowns was a lie.

The alleged justification for the lockdowns was that we had to flatten the curve so the hospitals did not get overwhelmed.

The hospitals did not get overwhelmed.

On the contrary, all across the country, huge number of hospitals are laying off huge numbers of health care workers. (see #11 on this list for many examples.)

But the lockdowns are still going on.

Therefore, the entire justification for the lockdowns was a lie.


End all restrictions, they were unnecessary, Hebrew University researchers say

https://www.timesofisrael.com/end-a...nnecessary-hebrew-university-researchers-say/

 

[Sabres342]

I have a whole lot of conflicting opinions about the severity and the danger of COVID-19. There's just so much information going around about it and government and health officials change their minds about it almost every second that I truly don't know what to think any more.

On one hand, I'd like to defer to the health officials and the researchers because, presumably, they know far more about this disease than I do. On the other hand, it's hard not to look at the numbers and see that just about every "doom and gloom" prediction has been utterly wrong- and by a wide margin yet.

Furthermore, we have the media seemingly only talking to the worst fearmongering of "experts" who want us to believe we'll be living with the plague for the next decade. Yet there's no government banning gatherings into 2024, and the postponed festivals are absolutely certain it'll be business as usual next year. Not only that but the NFL and many other fall events are operating as "business as usual".

What gives? Why the conflicting messages? Is the government sitting on information we don't know about?

I sometimes think this whole exercise is a battle to simply "get to the obvious". Its mortality rate isn't that high and the disease doesn't change much so science should be able to figure it out sooner rather than later. Plus we, the public, knew all along that masks were effective against the disease- but health officials hemmed and hawed until just recently they came to their senses.

The real issue for me is that the government couldn't stick to a single strategy. We, in Ontario, were told the lockdown was going to last three months. Two months into it, we changed course, without the situation being radically different from when the lockdown started in mid-March.

Stuff like that really makes me wonder, "what's going on here?"

I don't know...I just don't know.

The only thing I'm sure of is that we're not in the apocalypse and we'll have this disease figured out sooner rather than later. The "doom and gloom" the media loves to present never comes to pass- it didn't with swine flu, it didn't with West Nile, it didn't with Zika, it didn't with Ebola and so it won't with COVID-19. Sooner or later, we're going to see that.

 

[basketcase]

...

On one hand, I'd like to defer to the health officials and the researchers because, presumably, they know far more about this disease than I do. On the other hand, it's hard not to look at the numbers and see that just about every "doom and gloom" prediction has been utterly wrong- and by a wide margin yet.....

In the middle, we have scientists who keep learning more and more about this new virus. The two hands are the media who make money by sensationalising things and the fringe using this as en excuse to promote whatever conspiracy theory floats their boat.

 

[Sabres342]

In the middle, we have scientists who keep learning more and more about this new virus. The two hands are the media who make money by sensationalising things and the fringe using this as en excuse to promote whatever conspiracy theory floats their boat.

I don't dispute that. I was referring more to my line of thinking and whose information I trust more regarding the pandemic. I think I trust the researchers more than anyone else, because they're generally more positive in how they discuss the virus than anyone else is. I also default to my own common sense based on what I do know about the virus, although that's more of a personal choice and I wouldn't expect others to agree with me.

The government has a little bit of trust since, in a democracy, they can be held accountable so if they're fudging the situation too much we're going to know- and make them answer for it. Still, there's part of me that thinks they're still not forthright with all the information they could provide us, and the fact the numbers are sketchy does raise some skepticism.

Furthermore, their "make it up as we go along" policy decisions sure doesn't give me much hope that they truly know what they're doing.

As for who I trust the least I'm with you on the media and the conspiracy nuts. The media seems to love running the most tragic and fear-mongering of headlines to grab attention and clicks, but once you actually read the articles they're just fluff because they're just talking to one person speculating. Then the conspiracy nuts...I think the lack of trust here is obvious, don't you think?

I have the exact same sentiments about this as well....

What gets me is that you have government officials and other scientists worried about conspiracy theorists but they do very little to stop those conspiracy theorists from cropping up.

One, you have pretty consistent consensus from policymakers that nightclubs, festivals and bars will be the last places to reopen. Given how much we already know that governments hate those places, how can someone not think COVID-19 isn't being used as an excuse to get rid of them?

Then you have all these dire predictions from so-called "experts" that think we'll be "social distancing" (I hate that term) for the next decade...but no one is acting like that will be the reality, as event organizers seem to think once the fall hits, it's business as usual. I mean, if, as "experts" think, 2021 is a write-off then I doubt festivals would reschedule their events for then. Right? So, why the conflicting messaging? Is there something we don't know about?

Then we have people like Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders saying "if we were dealing with scorpions, people would appreciate the threat more". No, Chief, it's got nothing to do with "visibility". It's got everything to do with lots of people (including me) thinking, "I've got a greater chance of getting hit by a car than I do of dying or even catching the virus". Simply put, if we were dealing with a virus where one person infects ten other people, does so asymptomatically and kills 50% of those it infects...I hardly doubt there would be many "not appreciating the threat".

Then there's the fact that the virus is more impactful in hospitals and long-term care homes than in the public. Well, if the public at large isn't in that much danger, why are we being practically imprisoned?

...and that's all off the top of my head, and before we get into weirder "Plandemic" territory. I'm not saying all this to downplay the public health issue or even to say that I believe in those- or any- conspiracy theories. There's lots of alternate, more rational explanations for the items above, and I fully recognize that.

I'm simply saying that, with how things are going, it's very easy to come up with conspiracy theories because government officials have done such a poor job not creating an environment for them to occur. There's a distinct lack of transparency that is really disturbing and should be concerning no matter what you think about COVID-19. Full stop.

 

[bebe]

Considering there was no true pandemic, why are we stuck in stage 1 still.

Almost 12 weeks of this lockdown and counting for Ontario.

In 12 weeks on average 24,000 people in Ontario will pass away.

We stopped everything because 2,400 died testing positive for the virus...most of the 2,400 would have died anyways because of old age...

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

You clearly don't know what a pandemic is and yet you post so frequently on all of the pandemic threads. I guess Merriam Webster is in on the hoax, too.

 

[squeezer]

You clearly don't know what a pandemic is and yet you post so frequently on all of the pandemic threads. I guess Merriam Webster is in on the hoax, too.

It's typical. Folks make up their own scenario to fit their perspective. Let's try it.

Doug Ford is intentionally keeping the business community down because he's a leftie libtard who only cares about lower minimum wage earners collecting their cool $2k a month.

The entire world has ruined its economy on a fake pandemic because medical experts do not know what they are talking about.

this is fun.

I've got an 8-inch dick and I get accosted and sexually assaulted by every gorgeous woman that walks by me.

I like this.

 

[canada-man]

It's typical. Folks make up their own scenario to fit their perspective. Let's try it.

Doug Ford is intentionally keeping the business community down because he's a leftie libtard who only cares about lower minimum wage earners collecting their cool $2k a month.

The entire world has ruined its economy on a fake pandemic because medical experts do not know what they are talking about.

this is fun.

I've got an 8-inch dick and I get accosted and sexually assaulted by every gorgeous woman that walks by me.

I like this.

tell that to the racialized and women ontarians that are sinking into poverty, evictions and starvation becaue of the lockdowns you blindly support

 

[squeezer]

tell that to the racialized and women ontarians that are sinking into poverty, evictions and starvation becaue of the lockdowns you blindly support

No residential evictions are allowed at the moment. They can all grab the 2k a month as you are doing. Folks with business like restaurants, bars are suffering and will continue to with 25 to 50% capacity even once they are allowed to reopen.

The CDC has come out worried at the spiking numbers in the US. They rushed to open and now with the protests look out. The second wave is going to make Trumptard lock himself in his bunker until election day.

 

[basketcase]

I don't dispute that. I was referring more to my line of thinking and whose information I trust more regarding the pandemic. I think I trust the researchers more than anyone else, because they're generally more positive in how they discuss the virus than anyone else is. I also default to my own common sense based on what I do know about the virus, although that's more of a personal choice and I wouldn't expect others to agree with me.

The government has a little bit of trust since, in a democracy, they can be held accountable so if they're fudging the situation too much we're going to know- and make them answer for it. Still, there's part of me that thinks they're still not forthright with all the information they could provide us, and the fact the numbers are sketchy does raise some skepticism.

Furthermore, their "make it up as we go along" policy decisions sure doesn't give me much hope that they truly know what they're doing.....

Interesting that you talk about the researchers and then claiming the governments are making it up. The responsible governments are listening to experts from various fields and trying to find the best way forward through conflicting problems. Suggesting they are clueless is disingenuous.

 

[basketcase]

Considering there was no true pandemic, why are we stuck in stage 1 still...

Coming up on 400,000 deaths worldwide but no big deal.

 

[basketcase]

tell that to the racialized and women ontarians that are sinking into poverty, evictions and starvation becaue of the lockdowns you blindly support

Tell that to those marginalized groups who are most likely to get the virus. As I said before, you suddenly developed social conscience is transparent.

 

[canada-man]

Tell that to those marginalized groups who are most likely to get the virus. As I said before, you suddenly developed social conscience is transparent.

the elderly and those with weakened immune systems are more vulnerable. many black and racialized people are doing anti-racist protests why are you not angry at them for helping to spread covid? you and other lockdown supported where but hurt when lots of mostly whites visited a toronto park 2 weeks ago. where is your concern at the recent anti-racist protests?

 

[bebe]

Coming up on 400,000 deaths worldwide but no big deal.

Not even relevant since a vast majority would have died anyways without the existence of Covid 19.

 

[bebe]

The Covid strategy is a mess....Testing is way too little, disorganized....Data is pathetic....Now we don’t even get the daily news conferences anymore....Ontario is an embarrassment....places that have way more cases than us like in Italy and Spain are already opening up....as well as other parts of Canada and US...that’s why I’ve moved on in my own right too...

I agree

It should be noted France lockdowned the same time as us

Since France started to reopen they have not seen a spike in numbers. In fact they are on a steady decline

Restaurants are open, patio cafes have reopened, salons are open. Kids are back in school The world did not end

Time for Ontario to reopen

 

[MissCroft]

The only thing I'm sure of is that we're not in the apocalypse and we'll have this disease figured out sooner rather than later. The "doom and gloom" the media loves to present never comes to pass- it didn't with swine flu, it didn't with West Nile, it didn't with Zika, it didn't with Ebola and so it won't with COVID-19. Sooner or later, we're going to see that.

Don't forget about SARS. It also didn't cause any of the devastation that was predicted. And it did something surprising thst the doctors, scientists, and researchers didn't expect. It suddenly just went away on its own. It essentially disappeared.

I'm not saying covid-19 will do that of course but I hope so. Regardless, I agree that it hasn't been the "doom and gloom" scenario that was predicted. I also think the lockdown may have been unnecessary. I don't know for sure. But it seems to now be going on longer than it should. I think that malls, bars, and restaurants should already be open by now. With limited access and distancing measures in place of course. They shouldn't open the food courts yet though.

I don't think the school year could have been salvaged anyway. You would have to keep kids in school for half of the summer and they are already well into summer vacation mode, lol. I was surprised to hear that ice cream trucks are allowed only as of yesterday. The truck's been going around my neighbourhood for at least a week. I can never find my money and run out the door fast enough! grrrr....

 

[squeezer]

Don't forget about SARS. It also didn't cause any of the devastation that was predicted. And it did something surprising thst the doctors, scientists, and researchers didn't expect. It suddenly just went away on its own. It essentially disappeared.
.

Do you believe we would be where we are number wise today if lockdown measures had not been taken? It's very easy to say it's not the doom and gloom as predicted considering measures were taken to actually prevent the DOOM AND GLOOM that would have happened.