Breaking - Wilson-Raybould resigns from Trudeau cabinet in wake of SNC-Lavalin claims

[WarGames]

This is getting good! Can't blame her

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...-from-trudeau-cabinet-in-wake-of-snc-lavalin/

 

[essguy_]

The reality is the discussions that may or may not have occurred have been blown out of proportion. IF there were any substantive attempts at "obstructing justice" then Wilson-Raybould would (or SHOULD) have resigned right then, OR refused a demotion. Her resignation now is because she cannot talk about the matter now that an ethics investigation is being opened and she can no longer perform her duties.

For anybody who has followed SNC Lavalin and it's various dealings over the decades in Canada and around the world - the current legal issues are for things that the Trudeau Govt could have very easily washed their hands of (since the offences took place well prior to their assuming govt). In fact, they could have stood back and simply referenced Arthur Porter - if they wanted to deflect - THAT would have been the easy (and smart) thing to do. So IF Trudeau or his PMO tried to interfere - then they deserve this flak because interfering was stupid - they should have just stepped back and said "Not my problem". But SNC Lavalin has deep ties to both major parties - so there are plenty of reasons for suspicion. Personally, I think this entire story is overblown - so that's why I think the Liberals should advocate for a full public inquiry into this and they should do this asap. The entire way they've handled this has been cluelessly bad.

 

[WarGames]

As of September 19th, 2018 the Criminal Code of Canada was quietly altered to allow for what’s called a ‘Deferred Prosecution Agreement’ (DPA), essentially a special plea deal for the well-connected. They buried it in a clause allowing DPA’s in a last-minute addition to their 582-page Omnibus Budget Bill. They hid it so well that even Liberal MP’s on the House of Commons justice committee studying the Omnibus Budget Bill were surprised.

SNC-Lavalin is currently under trial for fraud & corruption charges for its role in bribing Libyan officials under the Muammar Gaddafi regime as well as defrauding Libyan organizations to the tune of $130 million. If criminally convicted in court for corruption, SNC-Lavalin would be barred from bidding on federal contracts for the next 10 years. Not only did SNC lobby the gov 80 times to get DPA’s introduced into the Criminal Code, they also lobbied to get the prosecutors to invite them to negotiate a DPA instead of continuing with the criminal court case.

Fast forward to Oct 2018 - PPSC refused to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin. SNC-Lavalin have since filed a judicial review of the decision, which is still pending; but the new Justice Minister has suggested he may still force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada.

If any of this is true, we have some serious problems in Canada.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

The reality is the discussions that may or may not have occurred have been blown out of proportion. IF there were any substantive attempts at "obstructing justice" then Wilson-Raybould would (or SHOULD) have resigned right then, OR refused a demotion. Her resignation now is because she cannot talk about the matter now that an ethics investigation is being opened and she can no longer perform her duties.

For anybody who has followed SNC Lavalin and it's various dealings over the decades in Canada and around the world - the current legal issues are for things that the Trudeau Govt could have very easily washed their hands of (since the offences took place well prior to their assuming govt). In fact, they could have stood back and simply referenced Arthur Porter - if they wanted to deflect - THAT would have been the easy (and smart) thing to do. So IF Trudeau or his PMO tried to interfere - then they deserve this flak because interfering was stupid - they should have just stepped back and said "Not my problem". But SNC Lavalin has deep ties to both major parties - so there are plenty of reasons for suspicion. Personally, I think this entire story is overblown - so that's why I think the Liberals should advocate for a full public inquiry into this and they should do this asap. The entire way they've handled this has been cluelessly bad.

The fact that the charges against SNC are still standing and no fine/payment was agreed to by the public prosectors under the watch of either JEC or the new AG makes me skeptical of this story.

If JT had demoted JWC because she did not do his bidding, one would assume he would have ensured the new AG did so...he hasn’t.

Moreover, as stated above, if JT had been pressuring JWC she was legally obligated to resign. The fact that she did not do so as AG lessens the credibility of this accusation.

 

[WarGames]

STATEMENT FROM THE HONOURABLE JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR VANCOUVER GRANVILLE

https://jwilson-raybould.liberal.ca/news-nouvelles/statement-from-the-honourable-jody-wilson-raybould-member-of-parliament-for-vancouver-granville/

 

[K Douglas]

If she had true principles she would resign from the Liberal party. It's a cesspool with JT as their leader.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

As of September 19th, 2018 the Criminal Code of Canada was quietly altered to allow for what’s called a ‘Deferred Prosecution Agreement’ (DPA), essentially a special plea deal for the well-connected. They buried it in a clause allowing DPA’s in a last-minute addition to their 582-page Omnibus Budget Bill. They hid it so well that even Liberal MP’s on the House of Commons justice committee studying the Omnibus Budget Bill were surprised.

SNC-Lavalin is currently under trial for fraud & corruption charges for its role in bribing Libyan officials under the Muammar Gaddafi regime as well as defrauding Libyan organizations to the tune of $130 million. If criminally convicted in court for corruption, SNC-Lavalin would be barred from bidding on federal contracts for the next 10 years. Not only did SNC lobby the gov 80 times to get DPA’s introduced into the Criminal Code, they also lobbied to get the prosecutors to invite them to negotiate a DPA instead of continuing with the criminal court case.

Fast forward to Oct 2018 - PPSC refused to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin. SNC-Lavalin have since filed a judicial review of the decision, which is still pending; but the new Justice Minister has suggested he may still force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada.

If any of this is true, we have some serious problems in Canada.

Do you have a link for this?

 

[WarGames]

Do you have a link for this?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...chief-may-still-intervene-in-snc-lavalin-case

We'll see if they do or not, time will tell. However, I don't think they can do that because the DPA law precludes corruption charges.

It's a lot to unpack.

 

[james t kirk]

It's funny, but I think the whole SNC / Libya issue is a joke. A bad joke.

Whether we like it or not, this is how business is done in Libya / the middle east / Africa / South America / all of Eastern Europe (hell, pretty much all of Europe) / all of Asia. Pretty much all over the entire world bribery is a way of life. I'm not naive, it happens a lot in North America, just here we publicly frown on it and fret about it.

But if you want to do business in Libya, this is how business is done. I'm not saying it's right, or wrong, just that simply put, this is how it works. Right now, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans are laughing their collective asses off at the stupid Canadians and zooming right up the middle in the void left in the wake of SNC.

I don't blame SNC one bit and it's certainly not worth destroying them over.

You want to get upset and blame someone? Blame the Libyans. They are the ones who demanded the bribes.

 

[WarGames]

It's funny, but I think the whole SNC / Libya issue is a joke. A bad joke.

Whether we like it or not, this is how business is done in Libya / the middle east / Africa / South America / all of Eastern Europe (hell, pretty much all of Europe) / all of Asia. Pretty much all over the entire world bribery is a way of life. I'm not naive, it happens a lot in North America, just here we publicly frown on it and fret about it.

But if you want to do business in Libya, this is how business is done. I'm not saying it's right, or wrong, just that simply put, this is how it works. Right now, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans are laughing their asses off and zooming right up the middle in the void left in the wake of SNC.

I don't blame SNC one bit and it's certainly not worth destroying them over.

Whatever you may think of the libya charges the fact that any business can lobby our gov. to have the criminal code changed to help him get out of a bind is kinda a bid deal

 

[james t kirk]

Whatever you may think of the libya charges the fact that any business can lobby our gov. to have the criminal code changed to help him get out of a bind is kinda a bid deal

That "business" employs tens of thousands of Canadians in high paying jobs and contributes billions of dollars to the Canadian economy and pays billions in taxes. Only Canadians would be so idiotic as to think of taking them down because some corrupt Arabs demanded a bribe in Libya. Destroying Lavalin will not stop people demanding bribes, it will only hurt Canadians and Canada as a country.

The whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

As previously stated, you want to go after the bad guy in all of this? Go after the Libyans and not the low hanging fruit called SNC Lavalin.

 

[Knuckle Ball]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...chief-may-still-intervene-in-snc-lavalin-case

We'll see if they do or not, time will tell. However, I don't think they can do that because the DPA law precludes corruption charges.

It's a lot to unpack.

Thanks for the link.


The article is a bit confusing. The section you quoted is indeed accurate:
“The investigation comes as Trudeau’s new justice minister and attorney general, David Lametti, signals he may still ultimately intervene in the case of the Montreal engineering and construction giant.”

However, later in the article it seems to contradict itself with this:
“Lametti was asked in an interview with CTV’s Question Period a day earlier whether he could order prosecutors to give SNC-Lavalin a so-called remediation agreement, as it has been seeking.

“As a final step, I could issue a directive, but the Public Prosecution Service is an independent service,” he told CTV. “They get to operate independently -- that’s part of our rule-of-law system, and the director has done so in this case.”


I don’t know quite what to make of that. Lametti has only been in place as the Justice Minister since mid-January. If he had been planning to intervene in the SNC case on JT’s behalf there is certainly no way he will do so now. If I was him I would not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

 

[WarGames]

That "business" employs tens of thousands of Canadians in high paying jobs and contributes billions of dollars to the Canadian economy and pays billions in taxes. Only Canadians would be so idiotic as to think of taking them down because some corrupt arabs demanded a bribe.

It's been blown way out of proportion.

As previously stated, you want to go after the bad guy in all of this? Go after the Libyans and not the low hanging fruit called SNC Lavalin.

So you're okay with being able to bribe your gov to have the criminal code changed? Is this what you're saying?

 

[Knuckle Ball]

It's funny, but I think the whole SNC / Libya issue is a joke. A bad joke.

Whether we like it or not, this is how business is done in Libya / the middle east / Africa / South America / all of Eastern Europe (hell, pretty much all of Europe) / all of Asia. Pretty much all over the entire world bribery is a way of life. I'm not naive, it happens a lot in North America, just here we publicly frown on it and fret about it.

But if you want to do business in Libya, this is how business is done. I'm not saying it's right, or wrong, just that simply put, this is how it works. Right now, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans are laughing their collective asses off at the stupid Canadians and zooming right up the middle in the void left in the wake of SNC.

I don't blame SNC one bit and it's certainly not worth destroying them over.

You want to get upset and blame someone? Blame the Libyans. They are the ones who demanded the bribes.

I’ve wondered about this also. This law effectively prohibits Canadian businesses from operating anywhere except Western Industrialized countries.

Moreover, how does Canada have legal jurisdiction to charge SNC for crimes/actions that took place in Libya? Should be up to the Libyans, no?

 

[WarGames]

Thanks for the link.


The article is a bit confusing. The section you quoted is indeed accurate:
“The investigation comes as Trudeau’s new justice minister and attorney general, David Lametti, signals he may still ultimately intervene in the case of the Montreal engineering and construction giant.”

However, later in the article it seems to contradict itself with this:
“Lametti was asked in an interview with CTV’s Question Period a day earlier whether he could order prosecutors to give SNC-Lavalin a so-called remediation agreement, as it has been seeking.

“As a final step, I could issue a directive, but the Public Prosecution Service is an independent service,” he told CTV. “They get to operate independently -- that’s part of our rule-of-law system, and the director has done so in this case.”


I don’t know quite what to make of that. Lametti has only been in place as the Justice Minister since mid-January. If he had been planning to intervene in the SNC case on JT’s behalf there is certainly no way he will do so now. If I was him I would not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

No problem :adoration: I'm still trying to get my head around it all as well but I think at the minimum a real investigation needs to be opened not just and ethics investigation.

 

[james t kirk]

So you're okay with being able to bribe your gov to have the criminal code changed? Is this what you're saying?

I'm saying it is not worth bankrupting SNC Lavalin over.

Or was I not clear enough?

SNC contributes BILLIONS of dollars to the Canadian economy. Should we destroy them and replace those jobs with jobs working in warehouse for Amazon? All those juicy government nicities that everyone likes - hospitals, schools, roads, health care, security, welfare safety all require MONEY and that money doesn't come from government workers. It comes from guys in the private sector who get out there and hustle and take risks and generate real wealth for the economy as a whole. Guys who build things and add value. We support more than half the country that essentially lives on our hard work.

So unless you have a solid plan on how to deal with the very real economic fallout of destroying a company like SNC over chicken shit, I suggest that you get your principled head around letting it go. I don't remember who exactly said it, but perhaps a little "creative incompetence" would go a long way on this one.

 

[WarGames]

I'm saying it is not worth bankrupting SNC Lavalin over.

Or was I not clear enough?

SNC contributes BILLIONS of dollars to the Canadian economy. Should we destroy them and replace those jobs with jobs working in warehouse for Amazon? All those juicy government nicities that everyone likes - hospitals, schools, roads, health care, security, welfare safety all require MONEY and that money doesn't come from government workers. It comes from guys who get out there and generate wealth. Guys who build things and add value. We support more than half the country that lives on our hard work.

So unless you have a solid plan on how to deal with the very real economic fallout of destroying a company like SNC over chicken shit, I suggest that you get your principled head around letting it go. I don't remember who exactly said it, but perhaps a little "creative incompetence" would go a long way on this one.

So you're okay with that. Was just making sure I read you properly. Bloody shame is all I can muster.

 

[essguy_]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...chief-may-still-intervene-in-snc-lavalin-case

We'll see if they do or not, time will tell. However, I don't think they can do that because the DPA law precludes corruption charges.

It's a lot to unpack.

This link doesn't really talk about DPA's. Canada is simply following the lead of other countries by allowing this. The general idea of DPA's is to make it easier for companies to pro-actively report any wrongdoings without fear of criminal prosecution - so it's not as sinister as you may think.

With regard to the bribery charges - the implications for SNC Lavalin go beyond Canada. Eg: In the US with the Foreign Corrupt Practices laws - any conviction may make SNC ineligible to bid for US Govt contracts (or to seek a US listing). Just as an example: The company I currently work for is NYSE listed and every employee who faces customers must annually take an online course and pass a test on various business practices including any potential violations of the FCP Act. This is a way for the company to cover their ass - as the course and passing it is a requirement. So, if any employee were to violate the Act - I have no doubt that my company would wash their hands of it and toss whomever under the bus.

Again - I think this entire issue is being overblown - SNC Lavalin employs enough Canadians that there is definitely a National interest in any criminal wrongdoings. So it's perfectly conceivable that this would be discussed in Cabinet. Where it crosses a line is if Wilson-Raybould was actually pressured to "obstruct justice" or whether this was just one discussion point of the different scenarios that will unfold. Again, IF Wilson-Raybould was pressured, she should have resigned that moment - or drawn a line in the sand. Instead, she quietly accepted a demotion. To me, that is suspicious, and if it's true that the leak came from her office, it makes this even more suspect as simply an attempt to hit back after a demotion that was well telegraphed before any of this hit the headlines.

 

[james t kirk]

So you're okay with that. Was just making sure I read you properly. Bloody shame is all I can muster.

And just so we're clear, you're all for destroying SNC Lavalin, a Canadian company that employs 50,000 people because some corrupt Libyans demanded bribes in Libya orelse they would give the contract to the Chinese / Germans / Americans / Brits / Brazilians / Japanese / Russians / French / Dutch / et al.

I see.

 

[nottyboi]

As of September 19th, 2018 the Criminal Code of Canada was quietly altered to allow for what’s called a ‘Deferred Prosecution Agreement’ (DPA), essentially a special plea deal for the well-connected. They buried it in a clause allowing DPA’s in a last-minute addition to their 582-page Omnibus Budget Bill. They hid it so well that even Liberal MP’s on the House of Commons justice committee studying the Omnibus Budget Bill were surprised.

SNC-Lavalin is currently under trial for fraud & corruption charges for its role in bribing Libyan officials under the Muammar Gaddafi regime as well as defrauding Libyan organizations to the tune of $130 million. If criminally convicted in court for corruption, SNC-Lavalin would be barred from bidding on federal contracts for the next 10 years. Not only did SNC lobby the gov 80 times to get DPA’s introduced into the Criminal Code, they also lobbied to get the prosecutors to invite them to negotiate a DPA instead of continuing with the criminal court case.

Fast forward to Oct 2018 - PPSC refused to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin. SNC-Lavalin have since filed a judicial review of the decision, which is still pending; but the new Justice Minister has suggested he may still force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada.

If any of this is true, we have some serious problems in Canada.

I don't agree at ALL, the AG is part of cabinet, so he serves the govt of Canada and must decide what is in the best interest of Canada, at the same time serving justice. These are not 100% compatible goals so the deferred prosection is a good compromise. SNC Lavalin is a VITAL company to Canada. Issue fine, charge individuals but the company is HUGELY important. You have Scheer being idiotic and taking the bait. He is now a Western Consertive that is fighting to destory a Crown Jewel of Quebec. His political prospects in Quebec just went from slim to ZERO.