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Another Mass Shooting in the U.S.

SuperCharge

Banned
Jun 11, 2011
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How would mandatory background checks or gun safety certifications affect your 2nd Amendment rights? For safety, I'm convinced that many US gun owners are totally clueless about handling their weapons. Eg: I've been in a gun shop and have personally witnessed a guy come into the shop and pull his handgun out of his appendix holster to show the person what he needed. That guy is going to end up shot because of his own stupidity. (eg: I'm imagining him being stopped for a traffic violation and pulling his weapon when the cop asks him if he's carrying).

My personal opinion is that all private sales should be banned. I'd go further and ban sales at big box stores too. Support a local dealer. If you want to buy or sell a gun - go to a dealer. I'd rather a grizzled veteran gun dealer (who's packing) check out a potential buyer vs Chip/Buffy at Walmart. Also - a dealer is more knowledgeable about maintenance as well as places where a new owner could learn how to use his/her weapon. NO second amendment rights would be violated with this type of change. Of course the argument will be that illegal sales will continue. So what? FORCE head cases like Kelley to buy illegally. Many of them won't know how and won't get a weapon.
First of all. Let's unpack who did this mass shooting. He was a convicted felon. Dishonourably discharged. It takes a special kind of person to be DD. So now, with that said, its already ILLEGAL for him to possess a firearm. What law would have prevented this tragedy?

I await your response.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,821
5,407
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Let it be known, Danmand will lay down and let you kill him and not even try to protect himself or anyone else if their life is in imminent danger.
Nah, I live in Canada. I avoid USA, go to Mexico for holidays.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
105
63
Well, I've actually been to two gun shows, both in Texas (I had Canadian clients in Houston and went to these shows with an American colleague who was a gun nut). So I know they're not a figment of the media, I know that people buy and sell guns, and I've seen people put cash down and buy a handgun, no questions asked. Unless the buyer were a felon or out of State - it's legal, and no background check is required if the seller has no reason to believe that it's necessary. Even weirder for this part of the loophole is that IF the seller had a feeling that a background check was necessary - they wouldn't be able to do it because they would not have a FFL, which is required to access NICS. If they had a FFL, they wouldn't be able to sell at the gun show. So not only is it a loophole, it's a catch-22 loophole.

The only reason the NRA says the gun show loophole "does not exist" is because they view gun shows as strictly private sales between individuals and no different than if you met the person at their house. What they fail to acknowledge is that gun shows are held regularly - so have taken the place of FFL holding gun dealers for many sales (about 40%). Gun shows are also mass advertised, and sometimes held at the same venue many times a year. So they are effectively acting like any gun dealer - except instead of a sole proprietor - it's a mass of "individuals".
Labeling it "Gun Show Loophole" is incorrect. You do not have to attend a gun show to make a private purchase. The uninformed here think that if you make a purchase at a gun show, you are somehow legally circumventing a process.
 

The LoLRus

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2009
2,270
136
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First of all. Let's unpack who did this mass shooting. He was a convicted felon. Dishonourably discharged. It takes a special kind of person to be DD. So now, with that said, its already ILLEGAL to possess a firearm. What law would have prevented this tragedy?

I await your response
Thats right. Gun-control didnt work at all in this case.

I said it before and I'll say it again, there are 500 million firearms floating around in the US right now, and there's no way in hell you could ever get rid of them. So Americans are stuck with this now, next month there'll be another shooting (sorry to say)
 

essguy_

Active member
Nov 1, 2001
4,429
19
38
First of all. Let's unpack who did this mass shooting. He was a convicted felon. It's already ILLEGAL to possess a firearm. What law would have stopped this tragedy?

I await your response.
Well, there's mixed reports whether he was dishonourably discharged or whether he had a BCD (which might not show on NICS). That's one problem already - is the systems aren't sharing information. But he apparently bought his rifle at a big Outdoor store (I'm not familiar - but imagining that it's similar to a Cabela or Bass Pro.) That is part of the problem. He might have bought it from a part-time worker who was barely trained. That's why I said, above, that in my opinion, you should only be able to buy a gun from a licensed dealer (and by that I mean a gun store as opposed to a store that sells tents, paddles, smokers, BBQ's, etc). Selling a gun shouldn't be one line amongst many revenue sources for a store. A gun department manager shouldn't have to worry that he's being out-sold by Barbecues. It's too important to be done on a casual basis. And that WON'T affect your 2nd amendment rights.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,821
5,407
113
Thats right. Gun-control didnt work at all in this case.

I said it before and I'll say it again, there are 500 million firearms floating around in the US right now, and there's no way in hell you could ever get rid of them. So Americans are stuck with this now, next month there'll be another shooting (sorry to say)
But they all do a good job of praying for and having their thoughts go to the victims and their families. That is very helpful.
 

The LoLRus

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2009
2,270
136
63
I still think the reason why US has so many shootings is because prostitution is illegal. Get a guy laid once in a while and he'll probably complain a lot less and wont feel the need to shoot up the joint
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
105
63
I still think the reason why US has so many shootings is because prostitution is illegal. Get a guy laid once in a while and he'll probably complain a lot less and wont feel the need to shoot up the joint
The Las Vegas shooter had a girlfriend, so maybe not.

I have met an escort who does believe that she prevents rapes by providing a way for guys to get laid.
 

essguy_

Active member
Nov 1, 2001
4,429
19
38
Labeling it "Gun Show Loophole" is incorrect. You do not have to attend a gun show to make a private purchase. The uniformed here think that if you make a purchase at a gun show, you are somehow legally circumventing a process.
With a private sale, you would need to advertise it, arrange a place to meet, etc. If you're a buyer, you might have to go to several different addresses before you find what you want. In function, a gun show is like a giant dealer - except it's a gathering of individuals. So you're correct - in that it's legally no different than a private sale. Which are LEGAL (not illegal). So perhaps it should be called the "private sale" loophole. As I've stated (several times) - I think private sales should be banned and that all secondary market sales should be conducted via licensed dealers.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
78,415
96,435
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The gunman in Sunday’s mass shooting at a church in rural Texas was not legally eligible to buy firearms and had been denied a state gun permit, Gov. Greg Abbott (R) said Monday.

“Current law, as it exists right now, should have prevented him from being able to get a gun,” Abbott told “CBS This Morning.”

“I can tell you that before he made this purchase, he tried to get a gun permit in the state of Texas and was denied that permit.”

Abbott did not say when the permit was denied, nor did he cite the reasons why, saying only that it was due to “either answers, or the lack thereof, that were provided in his request.” Because Texas does not require a permit to purchase or own firearms, Abbott’s reference appears to be to a request to carry a gun.

Twenty-six churchgoers were killed, and at least 20 others injured, during Sunday’s shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, a small town about 30 miles east of San Antonio.

Devin Kelley, 26, whom law enforcement identified as the gunman, had previously served in the Air Force but was court-martialed in 2012 for an assault on his then-wife and child. Two years later, he was discharged for “bad conduct,” according to numerous reports.

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt said Monday that Kelley killed himself after fleeing the scene.

Federal law prohibits the sale of firearms to certain people, including felons, spousal abusers, undocumented immigrants and the severely mentally ill. Licensed gun dealers are required to screen potential buyers through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, an FBI-run database created by Congress in 1993. Nonlicensed dealers, such as private venders at gun shows and on the internet, are not subject to the screening requirement, creating a loophole that most Democrats and some Republicans want to close.

Abbott said it’s unclear how Kelley was able to obtain the military-style rifle used in the shooting, but predicted investigators will uncover that information in the coming days.

“It’s clear that this is a person who had violent tendencies,” he said. “How that got through the cracks, I don’t have that information.”

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo, President Trump lamented the “very sad event,” but rejected the notion that the nation’s gun laws are too lax.

“We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries, but this isn’t a guns situation,” Trump said.

Abbott agreed, saying the proper response to Sunday’s shooting is to confront evil through prayer and other efforts to forge “a stronger connection to God.”

“We have evil that occurs in this world, whether it be a terrorist who uses a truck to mow down bikers in New York City, whether it be a terrorist who uses bombs or knives to stab people,” he told CBS.

“And I’m going to use the words of the citizens of Sutherland Springs themselves, and that is, they want to work together for love to overcome evil, and you do that by working with God.”

Democrats have called for Congress to step in to make it tougher for violent people to get their hands on firearms.

“We have a solemn obligation to the victims of Sutherland Springs, Las Vegas, Orlando, Newtown and the many tragic shootings that occur each day to respond not only with prayer and unwavering love, but with action,” House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Sunday in a statement.


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358942-texas-gov-abbot-gunman-was-denied-gun-permit
 

Smooth60

Member
Jan 9, 2017
299
2
18
From Reuters

The man accused of killing 26 people at a Texas church bought two firearms from stores operated by a sporting goods chain in 2016 and 2017 after being approved in background checks, the company, Academy Sports & Outdoors, said on Monday.

"Both sales were approved by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). We are cooperating with law enforcement as they investigate further," privately owned Academy Sports said in a statement.

Unfortunate banner on their page. (though it is about the Astros)

https://www.academy.com/
 

essguy_

Active member
Nov 1, 2001
4,429
19
38
From Reuters

The man accused of killing 26 people at a Texas church bought two firearms from stores operated by a sporting goods chain in 2016 and 2017 after being approved in background checks, the company, Academy Sports & Outdoors, said on Monday.

"Both sales were approved by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). We are cooperating with law enforcement as they investigate further," privately owned Academy Sports said in a statement.

Unfortunate banner on their page. (though it is about the Astros)

https://www.academy.com/
At the very least, this will prompt some examination about what went wrong and why NICS didn't know about his discharge. Of course (still don't know the answer to this) - there's talk that because it was classed as a "Bad Conduct Discharge" it didn't disqualify him - BUT his jail-time should have. So the reporting system is fucked up. I also thought I saw something about his application being filled out incorrectly (and maybe the clerk at the Sporting Goods Store didn't think to question it). Again, I think one problem is that buying a gun at a big box or mega store is too easy (in the sense that there is no real intimidation factor). You're dealing with a smiling general salesperson vs a guy packing a Glock on his hip. Going into a gunshop is far more "intimidating" than going to Walmart, or BassPro. That's a good thing because it might discourage some people (eg: cowardly psycho's). Buying a gun shouldn't be as easy as buying a pair of jeans. And that WON'T take away any 2nd Amendment rights.
 

Smooth60

Member
Jan 9, 2017
299
2
18

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
78,415
96,435
113
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS,**Tex. — The massacre here that killed more than two dozen people — the youngest of them just 18 months old — occurred amid an ongoing “domestic situation” involving the gunman and his relatives, at least one of whom had attended the church, law enforcement officials said Monday.

While authorities have not publicly identified a motive for the attack, they emphasized that the shooting did not appear to be fueled by racial or religious issues, as has been the case during**other rampages at houses of worship. Instead, they pointed to the gunman’s issues with his relatives, saying he had sent**“threatening texts” to his mother-in-law, who was not there Sunday.

“This was not racially motivated, it wasn’t over religious beliefs,” Freeman Martin, a regional director with the Texas Department of Public Safety, said at a news briefing. “There was a domestic situation going on within the family and the in-laws.”

This revelation came as investigators continued to pore over the background of the gunman who opened fire inside the First Baptist Church outside San Antonio, killing 26 and injuring 20 others in**the latest mass attack to cut down Americans in seemingly safe public spaces.

Texas officials identified the attacker as 26-year-old**Devin Patrick Kelley**of New Braunfels, about 35 miles north of Sutherland Springs.
They said the former Air Force member shot at the churchgoers with a Ruger assault-style rifle**before coming under fire from a local man. Martin praised the efforts of**“two Good Samaritans” who responded to the shooting, saying that a resident who lives near the church heard what was happening and began firing his own rifle at the attacker, hitting him at least once.
Kelley dropped his rifle, jumped in his Ford Expedition and fled, Martin said. “Our Texas hero” flagged down another young Texan, hopped into his vehicle and they chased Kelley, Martin said.
It was “act now, ask questions later,” said the truck’s driver, Johnnie Langendorff.
[**An unlikely hero describes gun battle and 95-mph chase with Texas shooting suspect**]
During the chase, Kelley called his father on his cellphone to say “he had been shot and didn’t think he was going to make it,” Martin said. Kelley shot himself, though the exact cause of his death will be determined after an autopsy, Martin said.
Three guns were recovered Sunday, according to authorities: A Ruger rifle and two handguns, one a Glock and another a Ruger, inside Kelley’s vehicle. He had purchased a total of four guns during each of the last four years, officials said.
Precisely how Kelley obtained his guns remained a key question for investigators.**Kelley had been**court-martialed in 2012 and sentenced to a year in military prison for assaulting his spouse and child, making him part of a long line of mass attackers or suspects**with domestic violence**in their pasts. He**was reduced in rank and released with a bad-conduct discharge in 2014.

Kelley had sought and failed to obtain a permit allowing him to carry a concealed weapon, officials said. He had an “unarmed private security license” akin to what a security guard at a concert would have, Martin said.
In televised interviews, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) said it appeared the church was intentionally targeted, rather than chosen at random, but said there were “more unknowns than there are knowns” a day after the attack.
“By all of the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed**to have**access to a gun, so how did this happen?” Abbott**said in an interview Monday morning on CNN. “We are in search of answers to these questions.”
Joe D. Tackitt Jr., the Wilson County sheriff, said Monday that though Kelley’s in-laws had attended the church, they were not there during services Sunday, and instead came to the scene after the shooting.

People who open fire in public places can have “rage welling up,” and then they lash out,**said Peter Blair, a criminal justice professor at Texas State University and executive director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center.
“What you typically see in active shooter attackers is an avenger-type mentality,”**said Blair, who co-authored an FBI study in 2013 that examined 160 active shooter incidents.**“They’re**people who believe they’ve been wronged in some way. They get angrier and angrier and they plan the attack as a way to get people to recognize their issue.”

The FBI study found that one in 10 of the shootings examined involved attackers targeting women with whom they had current or former romantic relationships.
The location of such attacks can exacerbate the toll, Blair said. The mass shootings that had the highest injury or death tolls tended to occur in places where people cannot easily escape or try and defend themselves, he said.

Kelley worked**briefly over the summer as an unarmed night security guard at a Schlitterbahn water park in New Braunfels, the company said. He passed a Texas Department of Public Safety criminal background check before beginning work there, a spokeswoman said, though she added that Kelley was fired in July — as the season was reaching its peak — because he was “not a good fit.”
He was also able to pass a background check that allowed him to work for HEB, a Texas grocery chain, in New Braunfels. Company spokeswoman Dya Campos said he worked there for two months in 2013 and quit; she was unsure of his position there.

The attack on Sunday left a staggering hole in a Texas town of fewer than 700 people located about 30 miles southeast of San Antonio.
“Nearly everyone [inside] had some type of injury,” Tackitt said. “I knew several people in there. It hasn’t really hit yet, but it will.”
Tackitt said the aftermath was “a horrific sight,” adding:**“You don’t expect to walk into church and find mauled bodies.” Between 12 and 14 of the people killed or injured in the attack were children, he said.

The massacre outside San Antonio added Sutherland Springs to the growing roster of places synonymous with a mass tragedy, and it came just a month after 58 people in Las Vegas were gunned down in the country’s deadliest modern mass shooting.
In recent years, gunfire has cut down people at movie theaters, concerts, churches, nightclubs, schools and offices.**After the church massacre Sunday, officials in some of the places that have endured their own tragedies — including Aurora, Colo.; San Bernardino, Calif.; Orlando; and Las Vegas — issued public statements of mourning for Sutherland Springs, the newest member of this grim fraternity.

President Trump**appeared to try to steer the debate away from gun control after the slayings. At a**news conference in Tokyo, Trump said**he thought “mental health”**was a possible motive, adding that it**appeared the shooter was “a very deranged individual, a lot of problems for a long period of time.”**He did not provide further explanation.
With Trump in the midst of an overseas trip, Vice President Pence**said**Monday he would travel to Sutherland Springs**later this week to visit with victims, their relatives and law enforcement officials.
Trump’s reaction to the shooting contrasted with his unrestrained**calls**for**a death sentence for the**Uzbek immigrant accused of killing eight people in an apparently Islamic State-inspired attack**in Lower Manhattan last week.
Trump said the Texas incident “isn’t a guns situation,” and added:**“Fortunately someone else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction” or the rampage “would have been much worse.”

No one inside the church was armed at the time of the attack, the sheriff said Monday,**saying he was not surprised by that fact.
“People from this community would never think this could happen,” he said.
Witnesses and officials said the gunman in Texas,**dressed in all black and wearing a tactical vest, began**firing an**assault rifle as he approached the church. Texas state officials said Monday he was also wearing a black mask with a white skull face on it.
He killed two people outside before entering the church and spraying bullets at the congregation during morning**worship, police said. Officials said he was inside for some time.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/brea...als-say/ar-AAuuLAo?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp
 
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