Swimming Pool Question

[doggystyle99]

Lately I've been having very little time to maintain my chlorine pool and thinking about converting it to a salt water swimming pool.
Wondering if anyone can answer the following questions:

Has anyone converted a chlorine swimming pool to a salt water swimming pool and what was your experience?
What are the costs associated with the conversion?
How much easier is it to maintain?

 

[james t kirk]

What were you planning to do with the waste salt water?

You cannot legally drain salt water into the storm sewers, or your back yard, or a ravine, or the street even. The salt will kill every tree and all vegetation.

Every time you partially drain the pool to winterize it or even backwash the filter you need to have a way to dispose of the salt water. Some municipalities will let you Pump into the sanitary sewer in your house others will not and you will need to find a way to dispose of excess salt water.

 

[Mr Deeds]

Lately I've been having very little time to maintain my chlorine pool and thinking about converting it to a salt water swimming pool.
Wondering if anyone can answer the following questions:

Has anyone converted a chlorine swimming pool to a salt water swimming pool and what was your experience?
What are the costs associated with the conversion?
How much easier is it to maintain?

o
Honestly, costs are the same, not too much more trouble than a conventional pool but because you are using less chlorine it takes a little more scrubbing at the water line. Dont worry about draining the pool put it down the sewer no one will care and its far better that draining a chlorinated pool.

 

[Promo]

Has anyone converted a chlorine swimming pool to a salt water swimming pool and what was your experience?

I converted about 4 years ago and at the same time added solar pool water heating and solar for the pool pump. Conversion was straight forward, in my case I cut-out the inline chlorinator and installed the salt cells into the same location (which is just before the valve for the pool returns). The control unit was installed on the wall and I wired it along with the new motor and controller and controller for the solar heater. I had 240V already for the original pump and 120V for the lighting and gas heater (which I got rid of) so the wiring wasn't a challenge.

I researched the heck out of the various manufacturers and went with a Zodiac chlorinator. They were well rated, but what made my decision was:
1) The cells only last 4-6 years depending on use and the Zodiac had reasonably priced replacement cells available from several local suppliers as well as Ebay.
2) Zodiac has a west-end repair facility and several local repair techs (can't really risk being without a chlorinator for a few days, manual chlorinating is a hassle). I SHOULD have left the in-line chlorinator installed, just without any pucks.
3) Most competing technologies energize their cells by varying the duty cycle of the voltage on the cells (i.e. 20% setting runs a 20% duty cycle). The Zodiac cells vary the voltage level depending on setting which means the cells make salt continually. According to my studies this means that the Zodiac can maintain a more stable chlorine level as the pool is influenced by the sun throughout the day. I try to keep my pool at 1-2ppm, so stability is important as I want to avoid algae - a really sunny day can potentially bring the ppm to zero very quickly.

Day-to-day operation is a effortless. You need to run the pump ~8-12 hours a day, which I do anyway due to the solar heating and solar pump. I typically run it on the 2 of 5 setting and occasionally crank it up to 3 after a heavy rain, after heavy use or if the water or if the temperature gets above 85-90F. It can be set to superchlorinate (full power for 24 hours) and it automatically reverses voltage on the cells daily to keep them at peak efficiency.

The unit does drive up PH, especially after super chlorinating, I have to add PH Down weekly. I only have to add salt at the beginning of the season - splashing and evaporation doesn't change the level enough that I have to add additional salt.

You can just barely smell the salt while sitting near the pool, but you can definitely taste it. I also notice it when I have my eyes open underwater, but it's not offensive, incorrect PH has much more of an effect. Everyone that I ask that uses my pool like the feel of the salt water and aren't bothered by the taste or the feeling on the eyes.

What are the costs associated with the conversion?

I have a 120,000 litre pool so I had to buy a larger unit. If I recall correctly, I paid $1399 4 years ago, I believe prices have come down. If you can't wire it yourself an electrician will be 2-3 hours work as long as you have 120V near the controller (that you can make use of). The plumbing part is straightforward.

Overall Salt will cost you much more - the system is expensive and every ~5 years you will have to replace the cells.

How much easier is it to maintain?

About the same effort. An in-line chlorinator isn't much work other than having to buy and insert pucks every few days. The salt chlorinator is a bit less work (no pucks), but you still have to test the water, occasionally adjust the output level, still have to add your other chemicals , superchlorinate/shock - the workload is basically the same.

So far the salt hasn't impacted my pool equipment, steel components (ladder or lights), concrete around the pool, lawn or robotic cleaner.

 

[Promo]

The salt will kill every tree and all vegetation.

I know about a dozen people with salt water pools who backwash or drain onto their property or forest/ravine behind their houses (including me) and the water has had no negative impact on the grass, plants and trees. The trees behind my house (maple, birch and a few pine) are noticeably larger and fuller than the trees a few lots away. That said, I'm no expert and there may indeed be plant species that are more sensitive to salt and I have read that pool salt indeed impacts creeks and rivers.

A difference, some newer pools have the jets are only a 4-6 inches below the waterline as is my case. Older pools were like 12-18 inches lower. I only have to drain about 6 inches of water compared to others that drain 18 inches; less water = less salt. I backwash onto my lawn which is a pretty large area once every 3-4 weeks.

You cannot legally drain salt water into the storm sewers, or your back yard, or a ravine, or the street even.

This is true for Toronto as well as the west-end community I live in (lawn is allowed as long as it doesn't impact the neighbours or find it's way into a creek or storm sewer). I'm a bit anal when it comes to rules like this; I follow them. I asked for and receive written permission from the city to drain into the forest behind my house (no creek), I had to pay for the assessment/permission through city council. I keep my salt levels on the low side (3500-4000 ppm). My neighbor across the street had to get his drain plumbed into his house drain and it cost a small fortune, I'm not sure how much exactly as he also got a one-way valve installed at the same time.

 

[AJstar]

What were you planning to do with the waste salt water?

You cannot legally drain salt water into the storm sewers, or your back yard, or a ravine, or the street even. The salt will kill every tree and all vegetation.

Every time you partially drain the pool to winterize it or even backwash the filter you need to have a way to dispose of the salt water. Some municipalities will let you Pump into the sanitary sewer in your house others will not and you will need to find a way to dispose of excess salt water.

1) the salt concentration should be actually less than the salinity of a tear drop & much lower than sea water, so no it does not bother the eyes or tastes offensive.
2) After 12 years my brothers pool backwashing into the front lawn has has no effect on the grass or weeds.
3) much less salt being dumped by pools than the mega tonnes of road salt as far as environmental damage.
So when they ban road salt,then talk to me about pools.

 

[james t kirk]

o
Dont worry about draining the pool put it down the sewer no one will care and its far better that draining a chlorinated pool.

Are you fucking kidding?

Completely Illegal and people definitely care.

All it takes is one person who cares see you do it and they will report you and you will be charged.

If I saw you do it I would call it in in a heartbeat.

 

[james t kirk]

1) the salt concentration should be actually less than the salinity of a tear drop & much lower than sea water, so no it does not bother the eyes or tastes offensive.
2) After 12 years my brothers pool backwashing into the front lawn has has no effect on the grass or weeds.
3) much less salt being dumped by pools than the mega tonnes of road salt as far as environmental damage.
So when they ban road salt,then talk to me about pools.

Your logic unfortunately is not the law and is a false equivalence. In your mind you see it as a green light do whatever you want, however it does not work that way.

Here is Toronto :

https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/...nnel=0ec12140f1c8f310VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Or Burlington with a link to the bylaw say:

https://www.takeactionburlington.ca/2017/08/28/empty-your-pool-spa-or-hot-tub-the-right-way-2/amp/

As to your position about road salt, let me explain how salt is considered a contaminate.

OREG 347 covers the disposal of waste in Ontario. When one needs to dispose of anything, including soil it has to be classified. Say you are the city and you have to dig up a road and dispose of the soil. You need to have the soil tested for contaminants. One of the contaminants is road salt. If your soil comes up within the guidelines as "clean" it can be disposed of as residential fill. (Meaning you can use it as fill even when building houses.)

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900347

But with salt contamination your soil WILL fail as clean fill and will now need to be disposed of in an ICI environment or worse at an MOE licensed landfill. This is a problem and is much more costly as the soil is now considered contaminated. Yes salt is a contaminant.

Typically road excavate will always fail the test for clean fill.

Dumping salt water on your own property will result in your soil also being considered contaminated and any disposal will now need to be at either an ICi and MOE landfill.

Hypothetically, if you sell your property and the new owner goes to do some work and finds out the soil is contaminated, he could Sue your ass big time.

 

[FAST]

Lately I've been having very little time to maintain my chlorine pool and thinking about converting it to a salt water swimming pool.
Wondering if anyone can answer the following questions:

Has anyone converted a chlorine swimming pool to a salt water swimming pool and what was your experience?
What are the costs associated with the conversion?
How much easier is it to maintain?

My current pool is a salt water pool, is the only way to go..

Salt water pools create a form of chlorine from the salt, which then reverts back to salt, no chlorine taste or bad effects on your skin, hair, bathing suite etc..

Put salt in at the beginning of the season, and you should be good to go for the whole season.

Far superior to dumping in any form of chlorine.

I've had a pool for 35 years in 4 locations,...and a lot of pools on the neighbourhoods I lived in,... there is no issue with pumping down your pool at the end of the season in to the street or your back yard, especially with a salt pool.

 

[james t kirk]

I've had a pool for 35 years in 4 locations,...and a lot of pools on the neighbourhoods I lived in,... there is no issue with pumping down your pool at the end of the season in to the street or your back yard, especially with a salt pool.

There's no issue if you are willing to break the law you mean.

Why don't you call up the local municipality or better yet the conservation authority and see if there is "no issue".

LOL

Then get back to this thread and tell us what happens to you.

Better yet, get the soil you contaminated tested for contamination.

Here, these guys can test your soil for you and give you are report as per OREG 347.

And then once you get the report telling you that your soil is now contaminated with salt, call these guys and tell them you need to dispose of some soil that is contaminated with salt and see what they say.

There is definitely an issue. You were either unaware till you read my posting, or you have chosen to willfully disregard the legislation. So which is it?

 

[james t kirk]

I know about a dozen people with salt water pools who backwash or drain onto their property or forest/ravine behind their houses (including me) and the water has had no negative impact on the grass, plants and trees. The trees behind my house (maple, birch and a few pine) are noticeably larger and fuller than the trees a few lots away. That said, I'm no expert and there may indeed be plant species that are more sensitive to salt and I have read that pool salt indeed impacts creeks and rivers.

A difference, some newer pools have the jets are only a 4-6 inches below the waterline as is my case. Older pools were like 12-18 inches lower. I only have to drain about 6 inches of water compared to others that drain 18 inches; less water = less salt. I backwash onto my lawn which is a pretty large area once every 3-4 weeks.


This is true for Toronto as well as the west-end community I live in (lawn is allowed as long as it doesn't impact the neighbours or find it's way into a creek or storm sewer). I'm a bit anal when it comes to rules like this; I follow them. I asked for and receive written permission from the city to drain into the forest behind my house (no creek), I had to pay for the assessment/permission through city council. I keep my salt levels on the low side (3500-4000 ppm). My neighbor across the street had to get his drain plumbed into his house drain and it cost a small fortune, I'm not sure how much exactly as he also got a one-way valve installed at the same time.

There are definitely species that are more resistant to salt (such as linden tress) and others which abhor it (such as alder trees and ash and walnut and fir).

MTO has done a lot of research as to which vegetation to plant along highways.

Most vegetables also abhor salt.

 

[james t kirk]

If your municipality allows you to pump salt water into the sanitary system, you are lucky and that is the way to dispose of it.

You need to hire a plumber (or do it yourself) but cutting into the main sanitary stack of the house and putting a 4" Y fitting into it and running an inlet pipe with a clean out cap to a convenient location.

Either that, or utilize the existing cleanout (if you have one), or take the toilet off of it's moorings, though toilet pipe is typically 3" and I don't know if it would have the capacity to handle a pumped discharge. I would opt to Y into to the main stack myself.

If the municipality does not allow you to dump salt water into the sanitary, then you need to install a holding tank and have it trucked away by an MOE approved company as needed.

 

[FAST]

There's no issue if you are willing to break the law you mean.

Why don't you call up the local municipality or better yet the conservation authority and see if there is "no issue".

LOL

Then get back to this thread and tell us what happens to you.

Better yet, get the soil you contaminated tested for contamination.

Here, these guys can test your soil for you and give you are report as per OREG 347.

And then once you get the report telling you that your soil is now contaminated with salt, call these guys and tell them you need to dispose of some soil that is contaminated with salt and see what they say.

There is definitely an issue. You were either unaware till you read my posting, or you have chosen to willfully disregard the legislation. So which is it?

Before I bother to take this any farther,... do you have a pool,...???

"Because these salts cannot be removed from
the water, saltwater pool and spa owners
should direct all salt water discharges to
sanitary sewer connection."

 

[james t kirk]

Before I bother to take this any farther,... do you have a pool,...???

"Because these salts cannot be removed from
the water, saltwater pool and spa owners
should direct all salt water discharges to
sanitary sewer connection."

What does that have to do with the price of corn?

Its not legal to dump salt water into the storm sewer or into a ravine, Creek, etc.

Take it as far as you want, that's the LAW.

You don't get to pick and choose which laws or regulations you obey.

So as I said before, either you were ignorant of the legislation previous to now, or you have been intentionally disregarding it. Which is it?

 

[FAST]

What does that have to do with the price of corn?

Its not legal to dump salt water into the storm sewer or into a ravine, Creek, etc.

Take it as far as you want, that's the LAW.

You don't get to pick and choose which laws or regulations you obey.

So as I said before, either you were ignorant of the legislation previous to now, or you have been intentionally disregarding it. Which is it?

First you have to prove the water I dumped had sufficient salt content to violate any law.

But the reality obviously is,... this is not enforced,... because comparing the water that I dump,... to the crap that ends up in storm sewers etc.,... is insignificant.

Municipalities put chlorine and fluoride in house hold water,... that is used to water grass.

I do realise that because of your business,... you have to follow the laws to the "T".

But I have NEVER seen any document that reports that some home owner was dinged for dumping pool water anyplace.

PS: "should" does not carry the same weight as "must".

 

[james t kirk]

First you have to prove the water I dumped had sufficient salt content to violate any law.

But the reality obviously is,... this is not enforced,... because comparing the water that I dump,... to the crap that ends up in storm sewers etc.,... is insignificant.

Municipalities put chlorine and fluoride in house hold water,... that is used to water grass.

I do realise that because of your business,... you have to follow the laws to the "T".

But I have NEVER seen any document that reports that some home owner was dinged for dumping pool water anyplace.

PS: "should" does not carry the same weight as "must".

LOL

What world do you live in?

You conveniently neglect to post where is says you are NOT permitted to dump salt water into the storm sewer or into the street or ravines or creeks.

Having been before a couple of judges in my time for one reason or another I can assure you that the judge would look at the language of the regulation and you are not going to get off the hook because it says " should", especially when the regulations are very clear that you are NOT permitted to arbitrarily dump salt water wherever is the most convenient for you. (NOt that this would ever see the inside of a court room, you would just be fined and they would add it onto your tax bill.)

If you are caught, you will be fined.

You can choose to roll the dice if you like, but all it takes is one tree hugger walking by when you do it and you will be nailed.

Oh, and I just went back to the Toronto link I posted, here's an exact quote for you....


The water from salt water pools has such high levels of chlorides that this water cannot be discharged to the storm sewer system — it must be carefully discharged to the sanitary system connection located on your own property.

Is that clear enough for you?

As far as comparing your salt water discharge to road salt, that's laughable as well too. The municipality applies salt to roads in the winter months to mitigate the risks associated with travelling in the snow and ice to service the needs of the populace. (I.e. make it safer for millions of commuters.) You are 1 person that has a salt water pool for your luxury. The two are not the same. Further, if you calculated the quantity of salt put on roads per capita, the actual quantity would be relatively low. But compare that to the amount of salt YOU alone dump into the environment for the sake of your ass in a swimming pool, well, I think you'd find that the numbers would tip the salt scale against your argument.

In other words, you pool is a luxury. Salt on the roads in Canada in the winter is a necessity. See the difference?

 

[|2 /-\ | /|/]

WOW...this is awesome. I have to give you respect for standing firm on this, even though I disagreed with you in the past or your POV on other things, it doesn’t matter this stuff is important.

It is our environment, our community which will eventually get overwhelmed with care free attitudes like this...such as ohh it’s only a little bit, my contribution will not make a difference, and make any excuse they can to justify being lazy and care free and times that attitude of one issue such as contaminating the environment by a few hundred thousand and it starts to matter.

Regardless if it’s illegal or not, it’s bad for the environment end of story and some municipalities realize but seems like people try to get away with everything they can now days.

It’s little innocent conversations like this that reveal a lot about a person core, their intentions and whether they leave a net positive or net negative after they leave.

Thanks for standing up on this.

I swim in salt pools all the time, I don’t own a pool but this has been very informative especially when my neighbor drains their pool and my backyard gets saturated and some trees already have dried up...maybe time to perform that soils test and see exactly what’s going on, especially since we have a vegetable garden and yes the future effect will matter if they did contaminate my property. I have no idea what type of pool they have but it’s a very serious issue being brought up.

What recourse do I have if my neighbor is infact contaminating my property each time they drain their pool. Two trees have already dried up near their property, and a 3rd one is starting to go plus the lawn looks like shit and seems like it’s getting worse. What would you do. It is located in Toronto.

Your logic unfortunately is not the law and is a false equivalence. In your mind you see it as a green light do whatever you want, however it does not work that way.

Here is Toronto :

https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/...nnel=0ec12140f1c8f310VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Or Burlington with a link to the bylaw say:

https://www.takeactionburlington.ca/2017/08/28/empty-your-pool-spa-or-hot-tub-the-right-way-2/amp/

As to your position about road salt, let me explain how salt is considered a contaminate.

OREG 347 covers the disposal of waste in Ontario. When one needs to dispose of anything, including soil it has to be classified. Say you are the city and you have to dig up a road and dispose of the soil. You need to have the soil tested for contaminants. One of the contaminants is road salt. If your soil comes up within the guidelines as "clean" it can be disposed of as residential fill. (Meaning you can use it as fill even when building houses.)

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900347

But with salt contamination your soil WILL fail as clean fill and will now need to be disposed of in an ICI environment or worse at an MOE licensed landfill. This is a problem and is much more costly as the soil is now considered contaminated. Yes salt is a contaminant.

Typically road excavate will always fail the test for clean fill.

Dumping salt water on your own property will result in your soil also being considered contaminated and any disposal will now need to be at either an ICi and MOE landfill.

Hypothetically, if you sell your property and the new owner goes to do some work and finds out the soil is contaminated, he could Sue your ass big time.

 

[FAST]

LOL

What world do you live in?

You conveniently neglect to post where is says you are NOT permitted to dump salt water into the storm sewer or into the street or ravines or creeks.

Having been before a couple of judges in my time for one reason or another I can assure you that the judge would look at the language of the regulation and you are not going to get off the hook because it says " should", especially when the regulations are very clear that you are NOT permitted to arbitrarily dump salt water wherever is the most convenient for you. (NOt that this would ever see the inside of a court room, you would just be fined and they would add it onto your tax bill.)

If you are caught, you will be fined.

You can choose to roll the dice if you like, but all it takes is one tree hugger walking by when you do it and you will be nailed.

Oh, and I just went back to the Toronto link I posted, here's an exact quote for you....


The water from salt water pools has such high levels of chlorides that this water cannot be discharged to the storm sewer system — it must be carefully discharged to the sanitary system connection located on your own property.

Is that clear enough for you?

As far as comparing your salt water discharge to road salt, that's laughable as well too. The municipality applies salt to roads in the winter months to mitigate the risks associated with travelling in the snow and ice to service the needs of the populace. (I.e. make it safer for millions of commuters.) You are 1 person that has a salt water pool for your luxury. The two are not the same. Further, if you calculated the quantity of salt put on roads per capita, the actual quantity would be relatively low. But compare that to the amount of salt YOU alone dump into the environment for the sake of your ass in a swimming pool, well, I think you'd find that the numbers would tip the salt scale against your argument.

In other words, you pool is a luxury. Salt on the roads in Canada in the winter is a necessity. See the difference?

The quote I posted was from Peel,... and "should" does not mean "must".
And first you have to prove the water I dumped had sufficient salt content to violate any law.

Have to LOL about you using Toronto as a shinning example of how to handle what goes into our lakes.

The point I made,... once again,... is pool owners do not empty their pools into the sewer system, they dump into their back yards, or the street.
And IF the TO by law was enforced, all the bylaw enforcement official would have to do was follow pool companies around in the fall.

Did you even know that you must get a permit to connect your pool discharge to the sewer system, do you know anybody who has,... obviously you didn't know,... because you don't have a pool.

Does what pool owners do have any effect on how the lakes are effected,... don't know,... and neither do you,... it doesn't look like anybody cares..

That is reality.

Is the environment important,... of coarse,... but it looks like its only important to you when you could be fined.

 

[Fred Zed]

Gentlemen get a grip or i will lock this thread. You can get your points across without insults

 

[james t kirk]

The quote I posted was from Peel,... and "should" does not mean "must".
And first you have to prove the water I dumped had sufficient salt content to violate any law.

Have to LOL about you using Toronto as a shinning example of how to handle what goes into our lakes.

The point I made,... once again,... is pool owners do not empty their pools into the sewer system, they dump into their back yards, or the street.
And IF the TO by law was enforced, all the bylaw enforcement official would have to do was follow pool companies around in the fall.

Did you even know that you must get a permit to connect your pool discharge to the sewer system, do you know anybody who has,... obviously you didn't know,... because you don't have a pool.

Does what pool owners do have any effect on how the lakes are effected,... don't know,... and neither do you,... it doesn't look like anybody cares..

That is reality.

Is the environment important,... of coarse,... but it looks like its only important to you when you could be fined.

Post a link to Peel Region please.

And of course you need a permit to connect to your sanitary drain. You need a permit ( Plumbing permit) if you even add a sink to your house. So what. Get a permit.

Whether I own a pool or not is irrelevant. The regulations are the regulations.

You're not allowed to dump salt water into the storm sewer or a watercourse. Period. And no one needs to prove any concentrations. That's absurd.