Is school a waste of time?

[Big Rig]

With apologies, It seemed to me that you were talking about post-secondary school - at-least in your Good Will Hunting post. I certainly was in my previous post where I called it "formal-education." Sorry you didn't think the film was great. It's not my favourite either.

No worries - Fukuyama's central ideas essentially crumbled with the towers on 9/11. Canon one day, fodder the next.

But this goes back to your OP. Any fact / content / knowledge based learning in an era where almost everything you could possibly need to know is available on a handheld device you have with you all the time changes the whole game. I understand that this is why the shifts in Ontario education pre-and-post Harris have moved classrooms away from rote learning completely. Not only what you learned has changed, but how you learn it has changed. Skills over content...

I haven't been to elementary or secondary school in a while (I think you called it "public school"), but what changes to it would you recommend?

I thought high school/secondary school was pretty silly, until I needed to take it seriously enough to have the grades in the subjects needed to be accepted into the university I wanted to attend. But even in that place I picked up basic work skills (education-related) needed to be successful going forward. For one thing, I was a voracious reader thanks to high school teachers. That helped me when I got to university and profs had a voracious attitude toward assigning readings. I leaned to study for exams in high school - a skill I relied on in university. I'm sure there were others, but I forget.

I don't know if I have a lot of ideas for improving it. If secondary school was the way I wanted it to be, that wouldn't work for a lot of the other students. Given where I lived geographically, it seems reasonable to me that my high school couldn't offer programming to fit my specific needs/interests, while meeting the needs of all other students.

As for your religious stuff... Not sure I totally understand. It seems to be becoming increasingly secular in this province's public education system. I understand the unions are fighting with each other and the province over the Catholic system's right to exist. Prayer is now only allowed in designated spaces, which I understand in most School Boards isn't supervised. Major Curriculum overhauls in the past 20-years contain less religious content than ever before - to a point that as I understand it, there is only 1 (non-mandatory) course on religion in all of elementary and secondary school. The recent sex education overhaul tells you what kind of power special-interest religious groups have on education in this province today (very limited). No such thing as the Lord's Prayor, and I'm not sure if purely religious clubs (e.g. Christian Fellowship) are actively staffed nor do they exist, while GSA exists in virtually every school in the province.

I'm not suggesting it's perfect or even good, but what are your ideas for improvement?

I meant public school. I never finished high school.

What I mean about religion is 50% of Amercans believe ionn creationism , not sure of Canadian numbers but there are lots of fundamentalists who want religion back in the schools.

They may get there way some day. They historically have controlled public schools and history repeats itself.

Social stress such as depression , desease, war etc may get fundamentalists back into power as people turn to superstition for answers. The first thing they will do is convert public schools to rid it of sin IE acceptance of gay rights and to save the souls of the young; "Bring the children unto me " was Jesus' command and they will start the day with the Lord's Prayer.

To safeguard our educational freedom from religious intrusion, and to improve public education, I propose school vouchers. Public schools can compete for them along with free enterprise .

So, to answer your question, I would do nothing to improve education. It is freedom of choice that will do the improving. It will do to education what it did to the computer.

Milwaukee has the voucher system and education is improving and it is cheaper.

 

[peter4025]

When I was in school I used to complain to my dad "why do I have to take this or that". His answer was "you never know when this or that will become handy and if you become an engineer, doctor, etc you can always do manual labour to survive if you don't have a job, but if you have no education you will always be a labour"

 

[Big Rig]

I feel pretty similarly, but my degree felt closer on the useless scale to what I feel OP is getting us to weigh in on. I wouldn't have changed a thing, but still...

Big Rig, out of curiosity, as the OP, when you ask "Is school a waste of time?" Do you mean elementary (k-8) secondary (9-12) or post secondary (diploma, degree, honours/specialist, masters, PhD etc.) did you mean to ask about? Or were you referring to it all?

Follow-up, what (levels) did you attend and graduate from? I'm sure I glossed over that...

The OP is about public School. I should have stated that.

And what I mean about a waste of time is this: You can learn in a few years what they teach you in 12 years. Home schooling has proven it beyond doubt. What a stunning waste of years of someone's life.

I never graduated high school so I got the equivalent in a pre university course at U of T. I enjoyed it.

 

[Big Rig]

When I was in school I used to complain to my dad "why do I have to take this or that". His answer was "you never know when this or that will become handy and if you become an engineer, doctor, etc you can always do manual labour to survive if you don't have a job, but if you have no education you will always be a labour"

So? What is wrong with making 100K and tons of benefits as a fireman, plumber etc and then go home and not have to think about your job?

 

[managee]

The OP is about public School. I should have stated that. You can learn in a few years what they teach you in 12 years. Home schooling has proven it beyond reasonable doubt. What a stunning waste of years of someone's life.

I never graduated high school so I got the equivalent in a pre university course.

The OP just says school.

The 1st reply is about high school (or secondary school).

Your first reply seems to be about post-secondary school.

I think where the confusion is coming from is when you say "public school."

Public school could be elementary (usually k-8) or secondary school (usually 9-12), it just means it's publically funded, unlike private school, which is not "public school" even though in many cases it runs k-12. Elementary schools that say "blah blah blah Public School" tend to do so to differentiate between Catholic (also not "public") schools - however a large part of their funding is public funding.

As for the voucher system... and a return to public(ly funded) schools teaching creationism alongside evolution, I cannot possibly see why or how that will happen. Mainstream Canada is an increasingly secular society, contrary to what we sometimes hear on TERB. The battle lines in this province are not over more funding for other (than catholic) non-secular school systems, it's for the continued existence of a catholic school system as 'competition' to a publicly funded education system.

Our public school system is frequently listed as one of the best in the world. Our independent (most are private) school system is up there as-well. At $20,000 a year for a mediocre CISA school, I'd still expect value added vs. a public education, but it's apples to oranges right now, and if the 2009 election told us anything, it's likely to stay the same.

Non-accredited (or non-CISA aligned) home-school modelled 'strip mall schools" in this province are a different story. But the rate at which they are stripped from credit-granting / closed altogether gives you a pretty good picture of how they stack up at this point.

I couldn't personally see myself pulling hypothetical kids from school to teach them at home unless I was on some amazing around the world trip. I reserve a lot of things in life for experts, education, in-particular is best left to someone who has dedicated their career to it. Just IMO.

If you want a religious education, attend an independent school. Or go to public school for free and get your religious study-on after school and on weekends.

 

[james t kirk]

What are you shitting me? All the math and science,and they never use it.You are clueless.

Actually it's you who is clueless.

 

[IM469]

Upon graduation from high school I could list geography and history among a list of useless courses. As I moved around in business - particularly dealing with international customers and suppliers - I found the content did help me a lot.

 

[malata]

Not what you know or how much you know, but what you do with it that's the determining factor.

Billionaires who did not finish high school.

John D. Rockefeller.
Henry Ford. ...
Amancio Ortega. ...
Kirk Kerkorian. ...
Francois Pinault. ...
David H. Murdock. ...
Richard Branson. ...
Carl Lindner Jr.

 

[shakenbake]

Not what you know or how much you know, but what you do with it that's the determining factor.

Billionaires who did not finish high school.

John D. Rockefeller.
Henry Ford. ...
Amancio Ortega. ...
Kirk Kerkorian. ...
Francois Pinault. ...
David H. Murdock. ...
Richard Branson. ...
Carl Lindner Jr.

But, education, or any other form of instruction, helps. These people received their education on-the-job.

 

[malata]

But, education, or any other form of instruction, helps. These people received their education on-the-job.

The "education on-the-job" / training did not only help, it made them masters of their craft.

 

[canada-man]

When I was in school I used to complain to my dad "why do I have to take this or that". His answer was "you never know when this or that will become handy and if you become an engineer, doctor, etc you can always do manual labour to survive if you don't have a job, but if you have no education you will always be a labour"

what's the use of having an education when you can't make ends meet?

 

[canada-man]

The most important thing is learning how to learn, how to think with numbers, how to do work thoroughly, how to work in a group, how to write well, how to manage your time, how to make credible arguments, etc.

If school had tried to teach me things that were "business practical" it would have been a waste of my time and not benefited me nearly as much. Why? Because that stuff changes and is obsolete within a couple of years.

You'll learn the practical stuff on the job, school doesn't need to teach it, it needs to teach the more abstract and general reading, writing, and reasoning skills.

I mean, otherwise you end up like canada-man thinking today some kooky YouTube video is a more credible source than a top scientific journal. That's why education matters.

this from somebody who have a problem with admitting when he is wrong.


https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...a-Scam!-quot&p=5884852&viewfull=1#post5884852

fuji rejected findings from peer reviewed science journal in a thread in the politics section because it does not agree with his global warming views

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/jour...0&spJobID=862987827&spReportId=ODYyOTg3ODI3S0

 

[malata]

Popcorn time!

 

[kid_kuh]

School is never a waste of time

 

[desert monk]

Well when Kathleen wynne is re-engineering your educational curriculum, then yes, it is a waste of time.

 

[fuji]

this from somebody who have a problem with admitting when he is wrong.


https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...a-Scam!-quot&p=5884852&viewfull=1#post5884852

fuji rejected findings from peer reviewed science journal in a thread in the politics section because it does not agree with his global warming views

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/jour...0&spJobID=862987827&spReportId=ODYyOTg3ODI3S0

That article agrees with my views. Don't you look stupid! Maybe you should have stayed in school, would have taught you to read beyond the first sentence...

 

[Occasionally]

It's a bit of a broad question.

Certainly, elementary school is pretty critical. Learning to read, add, subtract, write coherent sentences,
how to deal with authority figures as well as your peers is something we all use every single day.

High school is pretty critical in terms of how to relate to whichever sex you're attracted to, as well as more
advanced writing, math, etc. Sure, no one is going to quiz you about 'Catcher in the Rye' 20 years down the
road, but the process of being able to communicate your feelings about the book are critical later on.

University is where things get sketchy, because often people go into careers that have little or nothing to do
with that they took. Granted, you're still being made to think and learn, but now there's a price tag involved.
Even many people who actually go into their field (like business) don't directly use much of what they learned.

In total, I'd say it's flawed but very worthwhile.

Good pts.

For me, it's something like this:

Elementary school: Important for the basics, getting along with people, and learning how to take direction. Kids are young too. One part learning, one part fun.

High school: Important for helping determine what career. I guess lots of people still have no clue, but for me I knew from grade 10 I wanted to do business so I focsued on Economics and Bus Admin courses. As many as available (not a lot, so I had to fill out my high school credits with science and advanced math courses), and then pursued business in university. So for me it was blatant what to do in life. But for others I guess not. Most stuff learned in high school is useless in a practical sense. In fact. I'd put gym class as more useful than most courses I took. Not only was it more fun, but it gave me an idea what sports to play later on in rec leagues and goofing around with friends. On the other hand, I'm confident there is 0 content from Geography and History class I've used in my life. And 0 content from reading Shakespeare applies to real life.

I understand it may help reading comprehension and such, but how about having kids read on normal everyday stuff and having them apply reading/writing skills to that? Shit, instead of being graded on Romeo and Juliet, how about have kids learn to write a resume? Or helping a person write a mature and logical multipage response to Rogers Cable who is fucking you over double billing you. Who knows. But if it involves reading and writing and getting your pt across, structure it so it kind of relates to something real or interesting.

Or let's say grade your English and communication skills by having kids lets say write a training manual on how to fix a flat tire. That would involve kids clearly dictating with instructions and pics how to show someone to change a tire. That involves clarity, sequence, both text and visuals etc....

University: Important for giving you the basics for your field of choice (assuming you know what to do in life). Most stuff learned from fields with subjective content (business included) will not be done in real life. But at least you have the basics. And it is important to have that piece of paper no matter what people think. It's better to have on than none if you are going for a job. A piece of paper helps. At my past few companies, we only hire university grads. The only time they don't have that is if they are some existing long time worker hired 20 years ago when people got hired at the office with anything from formal education to being a high school grad educated sales guy who worked up the ranks the old school way. But for any recent hires, university degree or no sale.

 

[Big Rig]

As for the voucher system... and a return to public(ly funded) schools teaching creationism alongside evolution, I cannot possibly see why or how that will happen.

.

Read my post 62 closer . I explain how fundamentalism can get back control of public education. I am not stating it will, but it is a possibility .

I couldn't personally see myself pulling hypothetical kids from school to teach them at home unless I was on some amazing around the world trip. I reserve a lot of things in life for experts, education, in-particular is best left to someone who has dedicated their career to it. Just IMO. .

Then don't. But if you have vouchers you can now hire experts to help you home school. Would you choose bad teachers or good teachers? Good students or bad students to learn beside your children?

When you have freedom of choice I would choose the Dewey method of education - but I am assuming free enterprise does not create a superior form of education that I am not conceptualizing , which I believe it will . Some genius will do to education what Tesla did to electricity when freedom rules

I hated school because the above was lacking. Peers I did not want to interact with. Some teachers I did not want. Curriculum I did not agree with. Why should a mature child who wants to learn even have one teacher he does not want? or even one peer who does not love to learn and not be allowed to learn WFT they want to learn with great teachers acting as a facilitator instead of a dictator?

An example is phys ed. Hated it. Ugly short pants that showed your underwear and embarrassing to kids with skinny legs . I did not want to learn basketball etc. I had greater ideas, which I will not explain here, but I was not allowed to pursue. Same with a lot of shit. I was forced to go to a history class I did not like (just told WTF to memorize) so I decided to go to typing instead which was right cross the hall from me with a beginners class happening at the same time as my fucking history class. Typing seemed like a very boring tedious class but a challenging and very useful skill to learn. I told my principal I wanted to go to typing instead but was told I must go to history as it was mandated by the wisdom of the state. Fuck what the state says I protested in vain. So, one day I just showed up in the typing class and declared my intention. I was removed.


I gave up and mentally dropped out of school when I was 6 or 7. Hated being dictated to. Children are fucking different with different learning personalities. To throw them all together is child abuse . I physically dropped out during grade ten while failing every single class. Although the teachers would give me a minimal passing grade in reality I was flunking everything. I asked my history and english teacher to give me my real grade instead . Both were around the 20% mark. That seemed accurate to me.

I went to U of T to get my pre University high school English equivalent which is accepted in lieu of a high school diploma. I got A+ for content IE critical thinking , C for writing style as I never learned how to write well. I was flabbergasted at the A+


BTW, nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman totally agrees with school vouchers because it creates competition and he is as conservative as they get.

 

[shakenbake]

The "education on-the-job" / training did not only help, it made them masters of their craft.

Yes, and it is education nonetheless.

 

[Smallcock]

Interesting interview about higher education in particular: