Is school a waste of time?

[Big Rig]

Can I still quote from Fukuyama or even remember who Donaldbain was? No.

I apply the critical thinking, objective reasoning and communication skills I developed as part of jumping through that proverbial hoop every day of my career.

Could this have been developed elsewhere? Sure, but as a guy who spends a lot of time looking at CV's, I rarely go out on a limb to "give someone a chance" because of enthusiasm despite a lack of educative drive (or whose life situation prevented them from this achievement).

Formal education is an investment, if nothing else. When I've got 9 grads and 1 non-grad (college or university) lined up in an interview for a job not requiring a diploma/degree or experience (we prefer to train and promote from within), the OSSD-only grad has a tough time competing. The experience they gained in jobs over the 4 years the grads attended school are always similar.

Finding yourself on some epic 2 year sojourn makes me want to hang out with you, not hire you.

There's a running joke with a colleague where if he hears me say "So, you were a barista for 4 years, during which time you were an assistant manager for 1?" He owes me a drink. During weeks I'm in a lot of interviews, I don't pay for many drinks. I say the line to university grads and non-university grads every week, and believe I am comparing apples to apples.

I had to look up who Fukuyama was LOL.

He argued that the worldwide spread of liberal democracies and free market capitalism of the West and its lifestyle may signal the end point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and become the final form of human government..

I do not understand Fukuyama's reasoning, of course, but off hand I will disagree with him because free markets have serious flaws IMH truck drivers opinion:

1 Exploitation of the worker , which while does create great wealth and technology for all - rising tide lifts all boats theory - leads to point number two

2 this creates great class divide and wealth compounds itself through investments until a few have it all

3 this great wealth division will lead to revolt during depression which I fear is unstoppable for reasons I will not explain here - 2008 was an example that nearly created world depression that, I will argue, has not been avoided just delayed


4 capitalism must expand to survive which leads to world dominance so any depression becomes world wide (this has happened except in N Korea etc)


So free markets will take over the world and create great wealth and technology but very well may face a horrible end



How is my critical thinking ?

 

[fuji]

Which is part of the education BS. Can you do the job or no? WTF does a arts degree have to do with it? Lots of art degree fools with entry level jobs and student debt


When you were getting your degree I was making $$$$$$$ not building debt so you have a lot of catching up to do

When critics say get your university degree because grads make more money than non grads I respond compare apples to apples. Compare an arts degree to those who do not have a degree when crunching those numbers. Do not include engineers etc

Don't complain if your job is automated or outsourced.

 

[explorerzip]

A third is that career counseling should be front and center in grade 9/10, so that students can properly choose a path forward.

I think waiting until high school to do career counseling is too late. We no longer have the advanced, general and basic levels courses in grade 9 and there's only 4 years of high school. So you basically have 3 years of high school to get all your required credits in. So I think that career counseling needs to be talked about at about grade 5 or 6. Grade 7 and 8 need to be high school prep years.

 

[poorboy]

If your trying for a job involving chemistry, physics, engineering, medicine etc, then you need an education. In Canada, this is 10% of jobs. The biggest job categories in Canada is filing paper, pouring coffee and flipping burgers, no education required. Most of business, retail and financial is trying to get people to buy your products, you need big breasts and a pretty face to move merchandise, not a degree.

P.S. - Mental Health, the Military, the CBC and Arts and Travel are all made up jobs that have zero real value to society, and building housing for third world immigrants is not a job, hence construction being fake.

It's quite clear you have no idea what the military does, or how they operate. It's also clear that you paid little attention when you were in school.

I received more classroom training when I was in the military than any other job I've had since. You can't get past LCol without a master's degree these days. Without a military, we might all be speaking German right now.

Same with the police. As inept as parts of the RCMP are, they've prevented terrorist attacks in Toronto and Stratford. It's also the police in England and France that are fighting terrorism on their own land, not the military. The military takes the fight outside of their countries.

No real value to society? They're the reason our society exists and why this country has had a standing military and police forces for 150 years.

It's also obvious you've had an isolated life and no one you know has been a victim of a crime. Without the police, the drunk driver that seriously injured a loved one would never have been brought before the courts to answer for their crime. There is an element of society that will prey on others if not controlled.

I'm not a fan of the CBC, but I have to grudgingly agree that they are actually important to Canadian Society. There are areas in Canada where they are the only radio or television service you can receive. They provide a service to areas where no one else will.

 

[managee]

I had to look up who Fukuyama was LOL.

He argued that the worldwide spread of liberal democracies and free market capitalism of the West and its lifestyle may signal the end point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and become the final form of human government..

I do not understand Fukuyama's reasoning, of course, but off hand I will disagree with him because free markets have serious flaws IMH truck drivers opinion:

1 Exploitation of the worker , which while does create great wealth and technology for all - rising tide lifts all boats theory - leads to point number two

2 this creates great class divide and wealth compounds itself through investments until a few have it all

3 this great wealth division will lead to revolt during depression which I fear is unstoppable for reasons I will not explain here - 2008 was an example that nearly created world depression that, I will argue, has not been avoided just delayed


4 capitalism must expand to survive which leads to world dominance so any depression becomes world wide (this has happened except in N Korea etc)


So free markets will take over the world and create great wealth and technology but very well may face a horrible end



How is my critical thinking ?

Flawed. But who cares?

You either see the value in formal education or you don't. Many of my friends without it continued to make much better money than I did years after I left school, with considerable debt.

I strongly feel what I make now wouldn't have been a remote possibility without the opportunities afforded to me through my formal education, and my undergrad was a formative part of that. For some, that's not true.

Many of my work colleagues have diplomas, certificates or master's degrees, but what they all have in-common is an undergraduate degree. That's been the case for me since entering management a few organizations ago. I'd be very surprised if anyone I know truly felt it to be useless, or anything but one of the most lucrative investments we ever made.

Call it a useless piece of paper or call it an admission slip, it's the reality of the corporate structures I'm privileged to be a part of.

As great as Good Will Hunting was, speculating that Will was right is no different than speculating that he was wrong. It's a movie.

 

[Big Rig]

Flawed. But who cares?.

I do. I always felt I had good critical thinking powers. You seem to disagree. You have my attention.

You either see the value in formal education or you don't. Many of my friends without it continued to make much better money than I did years after I left school, with considerable debt.

I strongly feel what I make now wouldn't have been a remote possibility without the opportunities afforded to me through my formal education, and my undergrad was a formative part of that. For some, that's not true.

Many of my work colleagues have diplomas, certificates or master's degrees, but what they all have in-common is an undergraduate degree. That's been the case for me since entering management a few organizations ago. I'd be very surprised if anyone I know truly felt it to be useless, or anything but one of the most lucrative investments we ever made.

Call it a useless piece of paper or call it an admission slip, it's the reality of the corporate structures I'm privileged to be a part of. .

I am talking about public school, not University. As I never went there I am in no position to judge. But public school is just a collection of facts and you do not need to go there to learn that. As well, it is a source of great child abuse IE the history of abusing gays, learning disorders, minorities, etc and then there is mature students having to put up with delinquents ... the list goes on.

You may respond that public schools have changed. I will argue they have now caught up to what they should have been 50 years ago. 50 years from now they will be at the level they should be at today. They are a melting pot. Full school vouchers would change society. Let us do it now before religious fundamentalism gets back in control of schools and everyone starts the day with the Lords Prayer. History repeats itself. I do not need formal education to figure that out.

As great as Good Will Hunting was, speculating that Will was right is no different than speculating that he was wrong. It's a movie.

I do not feel it is a great movie at all. It is great entertainment because of the conflicted character . It is conflict that makes a movie entertainment . Had me going from beginning to end. But, Will Hunting was a fictitious genius. No real people have his abilities. A great movie you learn truth from.

What truth did you learn from Will Hunting?

There was also no great memorable prose that is present in great literature. . With all those MIT professors you think one of the characters could have waxed poetic

Should have been a great movie but it was not

It is not how I would have scripted it .

There is only a tiny handful of great Hollywood movies for that reason.

 

[dbiz2]

As a AA male that's been "semi-retired" but unable to get a full-time job since 2009 (but recently got a FT job that requires me to relocate--but that's okay because the salary commensurates me to do so), my education AND age, along with being out of FT work for so long and the economy, have worked against me. Basically, if I had an under 40 year old interviewing me, I quickly learned to deal with rejection and statements like, "boy, you've got impressive credentials. Are you sure you want this job?" I've been fortunate that the pension I receive allows me to live, but I don't see it as a sustainable situation.

It just blows my mind that I've never flunked any assessment tests, i.e., accounting, finance computer skills testing, etc., yet when I got to the interview it was either, "you've got too much management experience for this job," or "you did well on the excel/word/powerpoint assessment, but we want someone with more experience" using whatever financial software they were using, yet that requirement wasn't posted in the job specs for evaluating applicants. And now I get a job, that other than an intermediate level of agility in excel/word/powerpoint, I don't get to use the accounting/finance stuff I went to school for (MBA/MSF along with an MA in poli sci).

So basically this job will pay off the remainder of the federal student loans, and get another pension. I guess I shouldn't complain, given that most people my age (59) are hard pressed to get a good paying (the monthly pension check will now go into the savings account)/full benefits professional job these days. It wasn't what I had planned. But as the old Yiddish saying goes, "We plan, God laughs."

 

[managee]

I do. I always felt I had good critical thinking powers. You seem to disagree. [

I am talking about public school, not University. As I never went there I am in no position to judge. But public school is just a collection of facts and you do not need to go there to do that. As well, it is a source of great child abuse IE the history of abusing gays, learning disorders, minorities, etc and then there is mature students having to put up with delinquents ... the list goes on.

You may respond that public schools have changed. I will argue they have now caught up to what they should have been 50 years ago. 50 years from now they will be at the level they should be at today. They are a melting pot. Full school vouchers would change society. Let us do it now before religious fundamentalism gets back in control of schools and everyone starts the day with the Lords Prayer. History repeats itself. I do not need formal education to figure that out.

I do not feel it is a great movie at all. It is great entertainment. Will Hunting was a fictitious genius. No real people have his abilities. A great movie you learn truth from.

What truth did you learn from Will Hunting?

There is only a tiny handful of great Hollywood movies for that reason.

With apologies, It seemed to me that you were talking about post-secondary school - at-least in your Good Will Hunting post. I certainly was in my previous post where I called it "formal-education." Sorry you didn't think the film was great. It's not my favourite either.

No worries - Fukuyama's central ideas essentially crumbled with the towers on 9/11. Canon one day, fodder the next.

But this goes back to your OP. Any fact / content / knowledge based learning in an era where almost everything you could possibly need to know is available on a handheld device you have with you all the time changes the whole game. I understand that this is why the shifts in Ontario education pre-and-post Harris have moved classrooms away from rote learning completely. Not only what you learned has changed, but how you learn it has changed. Skills over content...

I haven't been to elementary or secondary school in a while (I think you called it "public school"), but what changes to it would you recommend?

I thought high school/secondary school was pretty silly, until I needed to take it seriously enough to have the grades in the subjects needed to be accepted into the university I wanted to attend. But even in that place I picked up basic work skills (education-related) needed to be successful going forward. For one thing, I was a voracious reader thanks to high school teachers. That helped me when I got to university and profs had a voracious attitude toward assigning readings. I leaned to study for exams in high school - a skill I relied on in university. I'm sure there were others, but I forget.

I don't know if I have a lot of ideas for improving it. If secondary school was the way I wanted it to be, that wouldn't work for a lot of the other students. Given where I lived geographically, it seems reasonable to me that my high school couldn't offer programming to fit my specific needs/interests, while meeting the needs of all other students.

As for your religious stuff... Not sure I totally understand. It seems to be becoming increasingly secular in this province's public education system. I understand the unions are fighting with each other and the province over the Catholic system's right to exist. Prayer is now only allowed in designated spaces, which I understand in most School Boards isn't supervised. Major Curriculum overhauls in the past 20-years contain less religious content than ever before - to a point that as I understand it, there is only 1 (non-mandatory) course on religion in all of elementary and secondary school. The recent sex education overhaul tells you what kind of power special-interest religious groups have on education in this province today (very limited). No such thing as the Lord's Prayor, and I'm not sure if purely religious clubs (e.g. Christian Fellowship) are actively staffed nor do they exist, while GSA exists in virtually every school in the province.

I'm not suggesting it's perfect or even good, but what are your ideas for improvement?

 

[shakenbake]

Disagree, they use some of what they learned, not most of it. Ask any engineer or MD how much of what they learned they actually use and I wonder what the answer would be.

Are you among these professional groups? As an Engineer, I can tell you that I have used everything that I learned, in one way shape or form. It is amazing how things that don't seem to be relevant actually help you to think through a problem and to find an optimum solution. It is not so much what one learns as how one uses it.

 

[shakenbake]

School is such a waste of time that many working
professionals have to return to schools taking courses
offered by Ryerson, Seneca, George Brown to upgrade
their knowledge and skills. Or are they just wasting more
of their time in the evening?

You never stop learning. What you have pointed out is that schools can only teach you the fundamentals, and not everything that you will learn for a career. How long do you want to be in school? How does a school know what skills and knowledge you will need when you get out into the real world? Without those fundamentals, anyone who goes back, as you pointed out, will not be able to grasp the stuff that they would be taking 'post-graduate'. It is called Professional Development, and a very necessary and sometimes mandatory part of a successful career.

 

[managee]

Are you among these professional groups? As an Engineer, I can tell you that I have used everything that I learned, in one way shape or form. It is amazing how things that don't seem to be relevant actually help you to think through a problem and to find an optimum solution. It is not so much what one learns as how one uses it.

I feel pretty similarly, but my degree felt closer on the useless scale to what I feel OP is getting us to weigh in on. I wouldn't have changed a thing, but still...

Big Rig, out of curiosity, as the OP, when you ask "Is school a waste of time?" Do you mean elementary (k-8) secondary (9-12) or post secondary (diploma, degree, honours/specialist, masters, PhD etc.) did you mean to ask about? Or were you referring to it all?

Follow-up, what (levels) did you attend and graduate from? I'm sure I glossed over that...

 

[shakenbake]

No high school diploma? I took a pre University course in literature from U of T . Took 2 months and two nights a week to get my equivalent to a high school diploma. I took it out of general interest and in case I need one . More fun than high school. Lots of babes and everyone is mature so no high school angst

BTW, KathleenWynne appears to be no longer on TERB. You can tell this person was bullshitting, because, if he/she really had a Ph.D., they would know how to abbreviate the degree designation. It is NOT PH.D, but Ph.D. It would be a safe bet that that person is one who did not benefit from his/her education.

 

[shakenbake]

I feel pretty similarly, but my degree felt closer on the useless scale to what I feel OP is getting us to weigh in on. I wouldn't have changed a thing, but still...

Big Rig, out of curiosity, as the OP, when you ask "Is school a waste of time?" Do you mean elementary (k-8) secondary (9-12) or post secondary (diploma, degree, honours/specialist, masters, PhD etc.) did you mean to ask about? Or were you referring to it all?

Follow-up, what (levels) did you attend and graduate from? I'm sure I glossed over that...

One thing that I have noted is that, the more advanced the studies, the broader the perspective, even if the focus becomes narrower. At the university level, especially at the Ph.D. level, one learns that they know very little about anything, and that they have to use the transferable skills they learned to really learn on-the-job, and to solve problems, analyse and contribute to society. as for your comment about your own studies, don't underestimate what you accomplished in school. having said all this, we must NEVER be snobs with respect to having received an education; we were just lucky that we had an opportunity that it was not possible for many to have. We all contribute to society.

 

[managee]

having said all this, we must NEVER be snobs with respect to having received an education; we were just lucky that we had an opportunity that it was not possible for many to have. We all contribute to society.

I hope I'm not coming across that way. However, I'm genuinely interested in defending all forms of formal-education as "not a waste of time."

 

[shakenbake]

I hope I'm not coming across that way. However, I'm genuinely interested in defending all forms of formal-education as "not a waste of time."

Not to worry, that is my qualifier. Some folks consider people with a formal education to be either snobs or useless in real life.

 

[rhuarc29]

I think waiting until high school to do career counseling is too late. We no longer have the advanced, general and basic levels courses in grade 9 and there's only 4 years of high school. So you basically have 3 years of high school to get all your required credits in. So I think that career counseling needs to be talked about at about grade 5 or 6. Grade 7 and 8 need to be high school prep years.

I'm not totally against that eventually, but I think a lot of people would currently find even grade 9 too soon to commit to a path forward.

 

[fuji]

The most important thing is learning how to learn, how to think with numbers, how to do work thoroughly, how to work in a group, how to write well, how to manage your time, how to make credible arguments, etc.

If school had tried to teach me things that were "business practical" it would have been a waste of my time and not benefited me nearly as much. Why? Because that stuff changes and is obsolete within a couple of years.

You'll learn the practical stuff on the job, school doesn't need to teach it, it needs to teach the more abstract and general reading, writing, and reasoning skills.

I mean, otherwise you end up like canada-man thinking today some kooky YouTube video is a more credible source than a top scientific journal. That's why education matters.

 

[managee]

I think waiting until high school to do career counseling is too late. We no longer have the advanced, general and basic levels courses in grade 9 and there's only 4 years of high school. So you basically have 3 years of high school to get all your required credits in. So I think that career counseling needs to be talked about at about grade 5 or 6. Grade 7 and 8 need to be high school prep years.

I believe they have academic / applied / essentials for gr 9 and 10, and university / college / workplace for gr 11 and 12 now. I assume you need to pick your level (academic / university or applied / college) before grade 9 because of prerequisites in later grades. I could definitely be wrong though.

You can pretty much take as many years as you want but at 18 they move you to adult day school if you are still interested in finishing high school and have less than 32 credits. Maybe it's 21 years old. Not sure. In any event, I doubt they'd let a 20 year old into a classroom with 14 year olds. I think you need 30 (with some specific courses) to graduate.

 

[managee]

I mean, otherwise you end up like canada-man thinking today some kooky YouTube video is a more credible source that a top scientific journal. That's why education matters.

I assumed it was from a series of brain injuries.

Live and learn...

 

[HungSowel]

It is quite amazing that through the application of thought we can turn what once was consider worthless into that which is now considered priceless. From sand into an iphone, from a plant that nobody gave a fuck about into life saving medicine, from radioactive rocks into the most terrifying weapons or a near limitless source of energy. School might not benefit you or I in the most meaningful way, but it will benefit a few geniuses in the most meaningful way, those geniuses will probably get patents and for the next 25 years will be raking in the cash. But after 25 years, that breakthrough becomes public domain. In many ways it would seem like stupid people are running a scam on smart people, we give smart people schooling and 25 years worth of good times, after 25 years the stpuid people jack the smart people's discoveries.