Is school a waste of time?
- Thread starter Big Rig
- Start date
Depends on what you define as schooling, if by schooling you mean strictly what is learned in the classroom and to solely learn for the sake of being able to be materially successful; than I don't believe you have utilized your time effectively. In the refined and advanced societies of their times, ancient Greece, Persia, Rome, Golden age of Islam, Renaissance, Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, learning has been seen as a noble pursuit, not as a means to an end.
Material success and education are not always positively related, and increasingly nor is civility and refinement. If one's aim is to be materially well off, then higher education may not always be the key. If one aims to able to better understand the world around them either practically or in theory, then education is important. More often then not those who have an education end up utilizing that knowledge to provide for themselves comfortably.
Material success and education are not always positively related, and increasingly nor is civility and refinement. If one's aim is to be materially well off, then higher education may not always be the key. If one aims to able to better understand the world around them either practically or in theory, then education is important. More often then not those who have an education end up utilizing that knowledge to provide for themselves comfortably.
I'm behind this statement fully.
I would say that the direction some universities are going, with extremism by radical left wing groups is ruining education and making it a joke and a platform for educating students with their social agenda.
Most people who dismiss education are people who don't understand the true value of education and are seeking like-minded people to reinforce their (misguided) beliefs.
Anyone in this day and age who doesn't value education is setting themself and their children up for an even more difficult life.
Anyone in this day and age who doesn't value education is setting themself and their children up for an even more difficult life.
I'm sure that's true, there's always room for improvement, but if your choice is going to the school system we have versus dropping out you're an idiot, literally, if you drop out.
We live in a society where there is fantastic opportunity for those who are better educated, and not a lot of great options for those who aren't.
That's not entirely true. There's a mandatory course that teaches this to all grade 10 students in Ontario (Civics). It's not history, but is taken the same year as the only mandatory history class and it is typically taught out of the history department.
Totally agree.
Could the system improve? Absolutely. But ulimately it'll need parental pressure to make it happen. Because it's largely parent (through school council and as by-far the largest group within Trustee groups) influenced, if not controlled, I understand how it would be tough to maintain acedemic integrity at the same time as being flexible enough to accommodate the needs of snowflakes (milllenials).
Parents want the best education possible for their kids, unless "best" puts their kid as some form of perceived disadvantage. For instance, if higher standards in math education mean Johnny's marks aren't going to be high enough for minimum acceptance to university, it is the system that's expected to adapt to the needs of Johnny, not Johnny to a new system. The reality of this creates a constant race to the bottom being encouraged by parents - who operate the education system because of their influence as Trustees and Parent Council leaders.
A Rock and Morty gem:
"I'll tell you how I feel about school, Jerry: it's a waste of time. Bunch of people runnin' around bumpin' into each other, got a guy up front says, '2 + 2,' and the people in the back say, '4.' Then the bell rings and they give you a carton of milk and a piece of paper that says you can go take a dump or somethin'. I mean, it's not a place for smart people, Jerry. I know that's not a popular opinion, but that's my two cents on the issue."
Very good point. I think that we've sucked out the excitement and curiosity out of learning. Formal education has been bogged down with tradition and systems. I cannot understand why we are still forcing kids to read Shakespeare. I don't think anyone who has ever studied the plays truly understand the content. You have learn what amounts to a new language: Shakesperan English and worse off the stage directions. So kids end up doing what they've always done and buy Coles notes just to pass the course. I don't see the value of relying on a study guide if you need to learn something new. People have to learn on their own without having someone else holding their hands.
I also think that people do not have the patience to learn through trial and error. So many of mankind's discoveries and inventions were made by accident. But some people need to read a book to learn anything. Even then, they're not willing to put down the book and experiment.
To answer the OP's question, education is a waste of time if you treat it as a waste of your time.
Lots of stuff is a waste of time, but I believe the reason you learn it is because:
- Government wants kids to learn a broad range of subjects for sake of knowledge and giving kids ideas what to do later in life
- Government is too lazy to change material to something more relevant
I've had a career in business, and did the whole business degree and such. Most of the stuff I was lectured about in big classrooms has negligible value compare to what I do now, or what any business function does in a big company. There are some things that hold true though. The VERY, VERY BASICS of sales, marketing, accounting and finance material taught does apply. But very loosely.
One thing that is never taught in business courses is grey area situations. And the business cases or examples they give are so linear, most kids will come up with an answer that fits a cookie cutter answer. In real life, a business decision can be the totally opposite even though at first glance it may make sense to do it another way.
University class will not give questions that lead to this. And if you are a genius and purposely work your answer to logically give a good answer, the prof or teaching assistant marking the paper will ding you marks because the answer is out of scope of what they know. Lots of university stuff is marked by fellow students who have zero real life career experience. So if Bill Gates tried answering a college class question with a clever real world complex answer, he'd probably get a C- because his answer is too good and no prof/TA will understand it.
I'll give you a fake example of what I mean:
University business question
- How do you maximize revenue?
Answer professor is expecting
- To earn more revenue, sell your widget to as many places as possible (one of the 4 P's of marketing PLACE). Sell a product someone wants at a satisfying price (find that sweet spot on a demand/supply line) and things should fall into place
Real life answer
- Depending on the product, some products make sense at certain retailers or channels. If you try to force through a huge Costco bulky pack across all retailers, Costco will tell you to fuck off and they won't want it anymore. They want their own exclusive product. Large stores like Loblaws and Walmart will see the Costco item and want it too, but to appease them you make them their own customized large pack. Every other store isn't big enough to make it worth making their own version and other places don't care for a huge pack anyway.
- Conversely, if you try to nickel and dime everyone and try to force through packages with low quantity hoping everyone will buy it up, the same thing will happen. That's why cookies are usually in that 300-400 gram pack, and not in 100g packs hoping everyone will buy 3-4 packs of them leading to a higher dollar ring. If you did that, most retailers wouldn't buy your product aside from maybe gas stations and convenience stores who sell small grab and go snacks
- Even if both a bulky pack and a small nickel and dime pack seems like good value for the consumer, it doesn't matter sometimes because what you have to offer has to be something that fits a norm. And even if it makes your company happy, the retailer carrying it may tell you to fuck off because it kills their sales and profits. That's why bags of chips are all around 200g at $2-3. If you ran a company and were happy and profitable selling a 200g bags of chips for 25 cents to all stores, zero retailers would take it. It's too cheap and it would drive down their snack aisles top line and profit line dollars into the toilet. There's only so many bags of chips to sell, so unless you can convince them that your chips will sell like 10-15x more than the rest combined, no corporate buyer will give you 2 minutes of their time. This point is an example of driving down the value. Something that is never taught in business class
- Government wants kids to learn a broad range of subjects for sake of knowledge and giving kids ideas what to do later in life
- Government is too lazy to change material to something more relevant
I've had a career in business, and did the whole business degree and such. Most of the stuff I was lectured about in big classrooms has negligible value compare to what I do now, or what any business function does in a big company. There are some things that hold true though. The VERY, VERY BASICS of sales, marketing, accounting and finance material taught does apply. But very loosely.
One thing that is never taught in business courses is grey area situations. And the business cases or examples they give are so linear, most kids will come up with an answer that fits a cookie cutter answer. In real life, a business decision can be the totally opposite even though at first glance it may make sense to do it another way.
University class will not give questions that lead to this. And if you are a genius and purposely work your answer to logically give a good answer, the prof or teaching assistant marking the paper will ding you marks because the answer is out of scope of what they know. Lots of university stuff is marked by fellow students who have zero real life career experience. So if Bill Gates tried answering a college class question with a clever real world complex answer, he'd probably get a C- because his answer is too good and no prof/TA will understand it.
I'll give you a fake example of what I mean:
University business question
- How do you maximize revenue?
Answer professor is expecting
- To earn more revenue, sell your widget to as many places as possible (one of the 4 P's of marketing PLACE). Sell a product someone wants at a satisfying price (find that sweet spot on a demand/supply line) and things should fall into place
Real life answer
- Depending on the product, some products make sense at certain retailers or channels. If you try to force through a huge Costco bulky pack across all retailers, Costco will tell you to fuck off and they won't want it anymore. They want their own exclusive product. Large stores like Loblaws and Walmart will see the Costco item and want it too, but to appease them you make them their own customized large pack. Every other store isn't big enough to make it worth making their own version and other places don't care for a huge pack anyway.
- Conversely, if you try to nickel and dime everyone and try to force through packages with low quantity hoping everyone will buy it up, the same thing will happen. That's why cookies are usually in that 300-400 gram pack, and not in 100g packs hoping everyone will buy 3-4 packs of them leading to a higher dollar ring. If you did that, most retailers wouldn't buy your product aside from maybe gas stations and convenience stores who sell small grab and go snacks
- Even if both a bulky pack and a small nickel and dime pack seems like good value for the consumer, it doesn't matter sometimes because what you have to offer has to be something that fits a norm. And even if it makes your company happy, the retailer carrying it may tell you to fuck off because it kills their sales and profits. That's why bags of chips are all around 200g at $2-3. If you ran a company and were happy and profitable selling a 200g bags of chips for 25 cents to all stores, zero retailers would take it. It's too cheap and it would drive down their snack aisles top line and profit line dollars into the toilet. There's only so many bags of chips to sell, so unless you can convince them that your chips will sell like 10-15x more than the rest combined, no corporate buyer will give you 2 minutes of their time. This point is an example of driving down the value. Something that is never taught in business class
School is such a waste of time that many working
professionals have to return to schools taking courses
offered by Ryerson, Seneca, George Brown to upgrade
their knowledge and skills. Or are they just wasting more
of their time in the evening?
professionals have to return to schools taking courses
offered by Ryerson, Seneca, George Brown to upgrade
their knowledge and skills. Or are they just wasting more
of their time in the evening?
So true.
I remember in business class and taking Retailing Course. I remember the course being about how to calculate margins (both cost basis and price basis) and all that. Now that is real life material that applies. Simple formulas that people use to figure out profit margins.
I also remember learning about setting prices and trying to figure out how to maximize revenue and such.
But that's the extent of what I remember.
I'm not expecting to learn so much that I can now run a Walmart store, but how about some analysis and reasoning on HOW and WHY calculating those margins is important? The real reason to calculate those margins is to figure out profitability both internally and at the retailer. And to do it to see how competitors compare (although that knowledge isn't know, people can estimate). Also, TOTAL expected margin can be calculated based on estimated sales from many products. In real life, suppliers and retailers will wheel and deal on different product lines to get a big picture. Give me a break on these products, and I'll give you a break on those products.
And nowhere in the course did profit margins involve any kind of promotional discount, kickback, which are just as important as the everyday regular price margin.
I think the most useful part of school (looking back at my career), is that fact I made lots of good friends (all levels of school) and some of them helped me land a job (university friends who mostly have similar career interests)...... "Hey, wazzup? There's an opening here. Interested? I'll forward you the job description".
Name one professor or school admin that will help out students like that land a job.
I don't think schooling in general is a waste of time, but I have deep misgivings about how our education is handled.
One part is the generalization at higher levels. I learned plenty of advanced stuff that I will never use in my life. After grade 8, they should really be focusing more on honing you for a specific career direction.
Another part is failing to explain how what you're learning can be applied in the field.
A third is that career counseling should be front and center in grade 9/10, so that students can properly choose a path forward.
Finally, I think incentives for in-demand fields should be offered to local students, rather than seeking foreign help to fill those roles.
P.S. Oh, and 9 years of French class is a total waste of time. I had no desire to learn French, will never use French and, even though I did quite well in French classes, can barely speak three words of it today.
P.S.S. Work experience is FAR more valuable than educational experience. I think we need more integration with co-op and education.
One part is the generalization at higher levels. I learned plenty of advanced stuff that I will never use in my life. After grade 8, they should really be focusing more on honing you for a specific career direction.
Another part is failing to explain how what you're learning can be applied in the field.
A third is that career counseling should be front and center in grade 9/10, so that students can properly choose a path forward.
Finally, I think incentives for in-demand fields should be offered to local students, rather than seeking foreign help to fill those roles.
P.S. Oh, and 9 years of French class is a total waste of time. I had no desire to learn French, will never use French and, even though I did quite well in French classes, can barely speak three words of it today.
P.S.S. Work experience is FAR more valuable than educational experience. I think we need more integration with co-op and education.
So true.
Who knows how high school and college/university courses are now as I haven't been in school for decades, but ASSUMING it's still pretty similar to back then, the problem with these courses (as you said) is application.
OK, a teacher will teach you math formulas, how to calculate the angle of a kite flying at 5 km/hr and in my business courses what the basic theories are, but the cases and questions asked lead to linear answers that have no real meaning.
What they should do is cut back on the number of repetitive questions, and create questions and cases that are more in depth in answer.
Here's some stupid examples I just made up now...... any of you take Finite (the math course mostly about probability)?
Instead of moronic questions people will be bored of like.... "what are the chances of pulling three queens in a row?" How about the teachers use some creativity and maybe change it up. Like.... Tom wants to buy Drake concert tickets online. There's 50,000 tickets available, but 1,000,000 other people are trying to purchase online too. The avg ticket sells in 8 seconds, and 1,000 purchases can be made at a time. What is the probability Tom gets access to buy a ticket before they sell out?
I have no idea what the answer is... or if there even is an answer... but just an idea how to skew a question to be more interesting. Instead the teacher will follow his textbook he's been repeating for 15 years..... "what are the chances of pulling three queens in a row?"
It can be the year 5000 and nobody has played cards since the year 2100...... "what are the chances of pulling three queens in a row?"
And unless they've added it in the past 20 years, they really need to add high school classes on life skills, budgeting, good detail on latest career trends etc.... Shit, spend a week or two to help kids prep for filling out a tax form and how to maximize your return based off various factors, or how to budget when it comes to finding a place to rent or buying a car.
It's funny how they will teach you as much as possible about math, formulas, huge calculus equations etc.... but not once about the cause and effect of mortgage and credit card interest rates and how budgeting can lead to smooth sailing, or lifetime problems of debt. All you have to do is teach a bit on how interest rates compound to show what a shit show someone will be in if they can't pay off their 20% credit card debt.
I'm assuming things are automated now, so everyone knows, but I remember when I applied to university, I didn't even know what the ballpark grade cut off was at each school. Luckily I still made it, but I got declined at two of them. Back then you apply to 3, and I got accepted to 1. Now if I was given a laundry list of schools with estimated cut off grades, I would have picked 3 I know I had a good shot at, instead of picking a bunch which turns out two I had no shot at.
So even basic things like this (back then) was sketchy. What the hell does that guidance counselor even do? Back then, she didn't give us career advice. She didn't give us estimated grade cut offs for university. Let's say I needed help to make a resume for a shitty summer job? Would she help me out? I don't know I didn't ask, but I doubt it.
The real answer is that it depends on WTF you do for a living
Real life example
I have visited the fort at Kingston and Niagara Falls , Fort York, as well as Lundys Lane in Niagara
I never studied war of 1812 in school as I am have little formal education but I feel I know more about the subject than your best public school history student has after he has been a few years out of high school and as he has forgotten most of what he learned
So, why spend time studying it in school ? as such an education can be gotten quickly and better in real life if you want it . I did it out of personal interest but having done so it is more trivia to me than anything
Same thing about geology . I learn stuff on the road as I stop at various locations such as the badlands and read simple info posted at rest areas and the occasional museum I can get to
Another example
I visited the slave plantation used in the movie Django Unchained . I talked to actual slave descendants who are used as tour guides . The slave were treated as an extension of the family and this comes from their descendants. They were not whipped, used as comfort party girls etc as depicted in the movie
Now not everyone gets around like me but all you gotta do is watch a few docs or read a Burton book on Canadian history (easy read ) and you are ahead of the vast majority of quality high school students after they have been out of school a few years and forgotten 80% of WTF they learned
I can say the exact thing about all arts subjects learned in school
Formal study is needed in the technical subjects but only if you use it in real life IMHO
Real life example
I have visited the fort at Kingston and Niagara Falls , Fort York, as well as Lundys Lane in Niagara
I never studied war of 1812 in school as I am have little formal education but I feel I know more about the subject than your best public school history student has after he has been a few years out of high school and as he has forgotten most of what he learned
So, why spend time studying it in school ? as such an education can be gotten quickly and better in real life if you want it . I did it out of personal interest but having done so it is more trivia to me than anything
Same thing about geology . I learn stuff on the road as I stop at various locations such as the badlands and read simple info posted at rest areas and the occasional museum I can get to
Another example
I visited the slave plantation used in the movie Django Unchained . I talked to actual slave descendants who are used as tour guides . The slave were treated as an extension of the family and this comes from their descendants. They were not whipped, used as comfort party girls etc as depicted in the movie
Now not everyone gets around like me but all you gotta do is watch a few docs or read a Burton book on Canadian history (easy read ) and you are ahead of the vast majority of quality high school students after they have been out of school a few years and forgotten 80% of WTF they learned
I can say the exact thing about all arts subjects learned in school
Formal study is needed in the technical subjects but only if you use it in real life IMHO
I'm having difficulty deciding if you are a kinda smart troll or a really dumb person. Either way, funny stuff.
---
There are plenty of excellent jobs that don't require a degree or diploma. There aren't a ton that don't require an OSSD, but I imagine they exist. I got a job at 16 that I got paid more for than the job I got coming out of university.
However, that entry-level position whose only requirement was a Canadian University honours degree led to a management position within 2 years, at which point my bonuses were more than my annual salary of that job I got in high school. Money isn't everything, and this new job was far more fulfilling than any job I held before obtaining a degree, and impossible to even apply for had I not had a degree.
A degree or a diploma is just a piece of paper that came with minimal effort and a bunch of debt, but it tends to act as a key, which can be used to open doors nearly impossible to open without.
There are always going to be exceptions to this, but this proves that school isn't for everyone. If you are smart enough to invent Microsoft, you probably don't NEED to know the significance of the French Revolution. Or maybe you do, but don't want to pay $5000 a year to learn it, so instead a library card or internet access will suffice.
If there are only two jobs and 90% of jobs fall into those two categories, what are the other 10% of jobs if there are only two jobs, of which they don't fall into?
No high school diploma? I took a pre University course in literature from U of T . Took 2 months and two nights a week to get my equivalent to a high school diploma. I took it out of general interest and in case I need one . More fun than high school. Lots of babes and everyone is mature so no high school angst
Which is part of the education BS. Can you do the job or no? WTF does a arts degree have to do with it? Lots of art degree fools with entry level jobs and student debt
When you were getting your degree I was making $$$$$$$ not building debt so you have a lot of catching up to do
When critics say get your university degree because grads make more money than non grads I respond compare apples to apples. Compare an arts degree to those who do not have a degree when crunching those numbers. Do not include engineers etc
Can I still quote from Fukuyama or even remember who Donaldbain was? No.
I apply the critical thinking, objective reasoning and communication skills I developed as part of jumping through that proverbial hoop every day of my career.
Could this have been developed elsewhere? Sure, but as a guy who spends a lot of time looking at CV's, I rarely go out on a limb to "give someone a chance" because of enthusiasm despite a lack of educative drive (or whose life situation prevented them from this achievement).
Formal education is an investment, if nothing else. When I've got 9 grads and 1 non-grad (college or university) lined up in an interview for a job not requiring a diploma/degree or experience (we prefer to train and promote from within), the OSSD-only grad has a tough time competing. The experience they gained in jobs over the 4 years the grads attended school are always similar.
Finding yourself on some epic 2 year sojourn makes me want to hang out with you, not hire you.
There's a running joke with a colleague where if he hears me say "So, you were a barista for 4 years, during which time you were an assistant manager for 1?" He owes me a drink. During weeks I'm in a lot of interviews, I don't pay for many drinks. I say the line to university grads and non-university grads every week, and believe I am comparing apples to apples.
