The 2017 Blue Jay season thread

[Dawgger]

Keep going with what? The decline of this team was inevitable and unavoidable after AA left.

The problem is you can't go "all in" when you have zero prospect capital to trade, you had a prior GM who failed to develop any positional prospects over a 5 year period, and a budget that does not allow you to increase your payroll with the oldest team and oldest core in baseball. There is no cheap or easy way to fill open spots on your roster when you have no quality young players to come up and fill your holes. Right now any hole on this team that needs to be filled needs to be funded externally which is the most terrible way to try to build a sustainable team while on a budget. AA crushed the team's flexibility with an old core and a few bad contacts.

Let's remember that Russell Martin was making $7 million in 2015 and $20 million in 2017. That type of salary structure is a crippling under a budget team with an old core, especially given all the holes and free agents that were becoming due at the end of 2016. It was a short sighted signing that helped in 2015, but hurt in 2017.

The team's inevitable fall is due to AA's decisions for anyone with good team building sense -- any baseball analyst has or would say the same. And yet you can certainly argue it was all worth it. The 2 past years were very rewarding as a fan and to the organization.

What really hurt during the AA era was the lack of position players the Jays developed. Look at the holes on this team - you have no Outfielders (nor anyone ready to come up). You have an aging catcher who is overpaid at $20M. and have no adequate backup catcher. You have been unable to develop a bat internally who could be a 1b/DH/ corner outfielder type. Over the entire AA reign, he did not develop anyone for any of those roles.

Shatkins have made a few mistakes, but they are doing a fairly good job of trying to sustain this and are doing the best they can to stay relevant while trying to slowly move forward. You could argue that EE >> Morales +Pearce. That I will grant you -- but in terms of wins over the course of a season, that is about a 2 to 3 win difference (statistically anyway).

For all those crapping on Shapiro and Atkins. Where would the Jays have been last year without the great deals granted to Marco Estrada and J.A Happ?

Yup the Happ and Estrada signing were very good. Unfortunately until Atlanta donated Grilli, the bullpen sucked. I think they got lucky when they traded Storen to Seattle, however that worked for them too. They brought in Upton and resigned Smoak Do you have a positive opinion on those moves? The bullpen is appears to be crap again except for Osuna and perhaps Biagini. Last year all the early bullpen signings and trades crapped out. Thole was the back up and looks like they are trying to find his twin for this year. Martin is aging and needs his catching time reduced so you have to find a guy that can play. Thole couldn't hit and went to the Bob Eucker school of catching, wait till the ball stops rolling, then pick it up and throw it back to the pitcher! Yeah AA depleted the minors to give the Jays a core to work from, not sure the Shapiro group has any idea how to work with it. Please note the Indians did nothing until they left and now are building on what they(the new regime) established last year.
I admit I am not a Shapiro fan!

 

[maurice93]

Yup the Happ and Estrada signing were very good. Unfortunately until Atlanta donated Grilli, the bullpen sucked. I think they got lucky when they traded Storen to Seattle, however that worked for them too. They brought in Upton and resigned Smoak Do you have a positive opinion on those moves? The bullpen is appears to be crap again except for Osuna and perhaps Biagini. Last year all the early bullpen signings and trades crapped out. Thole was the back up and looks like they are trying to find his twin for this year. Martin is aging and needs his catching time reduced so you have to find a guy that can play. Thole couldn't hit and went to the Bob Eucker school of catching, wait till the ball stops rolling, then pick it up and throw it back to the pitcher! Yeah AA depleted the minors to give the Jays a core to work from, not sure the Shapiro group has any idea how to work with it. Please note the Indians did nothing until they left and now are building on what they(the new regime) established last year.
I admit I am not a Shapiro fan!

The Smoak and Upton signings were what kept me from giving them an A grade so far to a B or B- grade. Moved them from strong performance to fairly good performance. Those moves certainly do not slow down the inevitable decline -- they accelerate it a bit.

The $7M extra you spend on them over replacement players could be used on the bullpen this year. Of course it's difficult to rely on a minimum salary player when you have no prospects, so that is the driver of trying to get gold out of low $ contracts like Smoak and Upton. Those two moves didn't really impact 2016 however -- Smoak's new contract and the waste of $4M on Upton hurts more in 2017. In my view the Happ and Estrada signings saved 2016. But they do impact 2017.

As for bullpen management -- I don't think we could expect them to do much with no prospect capital, drained pitching prospects, limited payroll available. They got a real coup in Biagini as a Rule 5 Draftee -- Storen was a flop and a bad deal, but they turned it into Benoit which worked in the end.

 

[SkyRider]

but they turned it into Benoit

But he hurt his calf, just like Brett Cecil.

 

[maurice93]

But he hurt his calf, just like Brett Cecil.

You can't really blame that on Shapiro, IMO anyway.

But it does highlight a major concern with the Jays as we enter 2017 -- they do not have depth anywhere.

 

[Dawgger]

But he hurt his calf, just like Brett Cecil.

You can't really blame that on Shapiro, IMO anyway.

But it does highlight a major concern with the Jays as we enter 2017 -- they do not have depth anywhere.

you are right, injuries are not managements fault, Bautista jammed his toe and it wasn't because he tried to kick Shapiro's ass, same thing with Estrada's back, unfortunately injuries occur and you hope management has done a good enough job of acquiring reserves to offset the situation(s).

At this point I don't see the Jays being competitive, unless they pick up a pair of corner outfielders with decent bats. If they don't improve the hitting, you will see a lot of Jays hitters being "pitched around."

 

[maurice93]

The more I think about it, while the great fall in 2017 or 2018 was inevitable (and was at the doing of AA), Shapiro and Atkins have contributed to the team having a harder time to hang on in 2017. In 2016 it could be argued they made it work with the Estrada and Happ signings. So 2016 is a really good grade.

But 2017 is a separate entity. $9M paid to Smoak and Upton, instead of addressing other holes. That was a controllable mistake. No "baseball" trades completed even if they were hard to do. Certainly they loss in the tradeoff of EE for Morales + Pearce. Once again a tough situation to manage for them, and in the end they came out worse.

I am glad the team hasn't went about the prospect for veteran deal. But there has been wasted resources, bad PR (which will impact budgets). There is still a time to give for them to improve the offseason.

 

[SkyRider]

Bautista jammed his toe

Bautista also hurt his knee running. I think Cecil and Benoit also hurt their calves running. Maybe just me, but I think a professional MLB player should be able to run without hurting himself.

 

[Ref]

Bautista also hurt his knee running. I think Cecil and Benoit also hurt their calves running. Maybe just me, but I think a professional MLB player should be able to run without hurting himself.

They were not your typical running related injuries except for maybe Cecil. Fortunately the pitching staff have a relatively injury free year last season.

The Jays had a great team last year, especially the starting pitching. If they can pick up a couple of more bats, then with their pitching, anything is possible. We lost Eddie, potentially Jose and Saunders, but many times last year they failed to produce in situations where a key hit may have been the difference.

There are still some good bats out there to be had and if you mix those in with Donaldson, Tulo, Martin, Morales, etc. then a timely dinger with runners on more than makes up for the loss of home run power.

 

[shack]

Fortunately the pitching staff have a relatively injury free year last season.

The Jays had a great team last year, especially the starting pitching. If they can pick up a couple of more bats, then with their pitching, anything is possible.

Between staying injury free and pitching, as a group, probably as well as possible, what is the likelihood of that daily double happening again?

I say the odds are slim, meaning they have to improve in the other aspects of their game even more than you are calling for.

 

[teassoc]

Between staying injury free and pitching, as a group, probably as well as possible, what is the likelihood of that daily double happening again?

I say the odds are slim, meaning they have to improve in the other aspects of their game even more than you are calling for.

Probably true but they don't have Dicky and his personal catcher to worry about so pitching results could be even stronger. Wouldn't bet on it though.

I'm still hoping they can sign Bautista and use him mainly at first base.

 

[Butler1000]

Sanchez just retained Scott Boras as his agent. Cue the interference, and losing him after 2020 season. Best enjoy him while you can.

 

[black booty lover]

Sanchez just retained Scott Boras as his agent. Cue the interference, and losing him after 2020 season. Best enjoy him while you can.

If Sanchez keeps pitching the way he's pitching, I don't think it matters who his agent his. Any agent will get him a mega deal which we all know takes the Jays out of the bidding.

 

[Butler1000]

If Sanchez keeps pitching the way he's pitching, I don't think it matters who his agent his. Any agent will get him a mega deal which we all know takes the Jays out of the bidding.

Boras is a pain in the ass. He was with Strasborg and Harvey. And he will prevent the Jays from signing him to a long deal early. And push arbitration to the limit.

They may have had a shot before. Now not a prayer.

 

[glamphotographer]

Wonder what ticket sales are like? How many season tickets are being sold? Flex packs? I keep getting emails from rogers. LOL!

 

[polisci]

Sanchez just retained Scott Boras as his agent. Cue the interference, and losing him after 2020 season. Best enjoy him while you can.

After seeing how Atkins/Shapiro handled the EE contract negotiations, Sanchez wants no part of the bullshitting. He'll definitlely boot as a free agent.
May as well say goodbye to Stroman too.

As I said previously, this 2017 roster is designed to get Gibby fired in order to bring in a made-in-Cleveland manager. Cleveland North Management didn't do anything for the Indians til they left.

 

[SkyRider]

After seeing how Atkins/Shapiro handled the EE contract negotiations,

They're also screwing up the JB negotiation. The Atkins/Shapiro duo might not be around in a couple of years.

 

[shack]

As I said previously, this 2017 roster is designed to get Gibby fired in order to bring in a made-in-Cleveland manager. Cleveland North Management didn't do anything for the Indians til they left.

Been saying the same thing also for some time.

Maybe they didn't win anything while there but they were all loyal "yes men" to Shapeero. That should be enough reason to reassemble them.

 

[teassoc]

I read somewhere that Bautista is looking for $25m for one year with a second year player option. I doubt he's worth that much and would therefore understand some club reticence.

The would take up pretty much all of the remaining budget the team is reported to have.

 

[Dawgger]

I read somewhere that Bautista is looking for $25m for one year with a second year player option. I doubt he's worth that much and would therefore understand some club reticence.

The would take up pretty much all of the remaining budget the team is reported to have.

I have not seen that article, if it is true, my guess is he won't be signed. IMO 20 million per would be the most he is going to get. I think he gets closer to the qualifying offer especially if he wants a player option. Really thought he would be signed here or elsewhere by now. If he hadn't got hurt last year what would his numbers been like?

 

[mandrill]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2GEr6zUcAAZslF.jpg

For God's sake, someone please reassure me that that is not Donaldson's massive, massive dick in this photo???!!!???!!! :Eek: :fear: