AWD vs Snow tires! MUST SEE!
- Thread starter stinkynuts
- Start date
They earn you money. Holy fuck I didn't know that. Will it be enough to pay for them. I better run right out and get me some so I can start earning.It's when you get off the 401 that winter tires earn their money.
Just make sure you check the weather and make sure there is no snow in the forecast where your going to be travelling.So need some advice: what to do... In a couple of years I plan to start commuting to Florida, leaving at end of December, returning beginning of April...
So... should I drive snowtires down and wear them out tripping around the Sunshine State or All weather or all season and white knuckle it through Ontario and the northern states like Pennslylvania?
Have to disagree with you on this,...weight is constant, you car's weight doesn't change, but coefficient of friction does,...PLUS the contact patch..
Actually, I was wrong. The traction is generally independent of the surface area, only determined by = coefficient of friction X weight.
If tires are new, they are soft and have better traction, when they get older, they get harder and lose traction. As I mentioned above, I once had a pickup truck with old winter tires that had poor traction, snow or no snow.
A large contact patch is always beneficial in dry and wet conditions, assuming no aquaplaning, but can be detrimental in snow, the tire can be always trying to climb over the snow being compacted in front of the tire(s).
This is why snows are generally narrower, to not become snow plows, and increase the psi with the road.
I agree with your point about snows becoming harder with each heat cycle, and if we have a relatively snowless winter, doesn't take long.
Racing tires are very soft, but can only take a small number of heat cycles, before they are hard.
I wouldn't put to much faith in that video, I've gone up much steeper inclines in the snow with well used no seasons.
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Another point HobbyHorse, depending upon where you are going in Florida (obviously this doesn't make as much sense if you are going to Panama City or Pensacola) is to cut over to I-95 which is closer to coast and lower in elevation hence less likely to have icing than the interior route. Due to the congestion around Washington I'd suggest doing so either in Virginia I-64 or in North Carolina (Winston-Salem to Durham to Raleigh to Fayetteville) or else I-77
The law of friction F = Fc * loadHave to disagree with you on this,...weight is constant, you car's weight doesn't change, but coefficient of friction does,...PLUS the contact patch.
A large contact patch is always beneficial in dry and wet conditions, assuming no aquaplaning, but can be detrimental in snow, the tire can be always trying to climb over the snow being compacted in front of the tire(s).
This is why snows are generally narrower, to not become snow plows, and increase the psi with the road.
I agree with your point about snows becoming harder with each heat cycle, and if we have a relatively snowless winter, doesn't take long.
Racing tires are very soft, but can only take a small number of heat cycles, before they are hard.
I wouldn't put to much faith in that video, I've gone up much steeper inclines in the snow with well used no seasons.
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Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load. Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.
Of course, tire on road is not ideal friction situation.
Wait. Are you saying worn out tires aren't as good as new ones?As long as they are new. After a couple of years they become hard. ...
NO,...he is saying what I have already said,...snow tires will become harder with each heat cycle, regarless of wear, the two are unrelated qualities.Wait. Are you saying worn out tires aren't as good as new ones?
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Sounds like some of the "laws" that were used by "experts" to predict that a car would never be able to attain a speed faster than 150 MPH in a 1/4 mile.The law of friction F = Fc * load
Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load. Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.
Of course, tire on road is not ideal friction situation.
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I posted it because it is a bit counter-intuitive, to me anyway. For idealized, dry conditions, the friction between a flat surface and an object is independent of the surface area of the object. That means, if a rectangular box is sliding on a flat surface, the friction is the same if a narrow edge is touching as when a wider edge is touching.Sounds like some of the "laws" that were used by "experts" to predict that a car would never be able to attain a speed faster than 150 MPH in a 1/4 mile.
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The friction coefficient of the two surfaces is also a huge factor, and in cold temps the friction coefficient of all season rubber starts to drop.I posted it because it is a bit counter-intuitive, to me anyway. For idealized, dry conditions, the friction between a flat surface and an object is independent of the surface area of the object. That means, if a rectangular box is sliding on a flat surface, the friction is the same if a narrow edge is touching as when a wider edge is touching.
Agreed.I posted it because it is a bit counter-intuitive, to me anyway. For idealized, dry conditions, the friction between a flat surface and an object is independent of the surface area of the object. That means, if a rectangular box is sliding on a flat surface, the friction is the same if a narrow edge is touching as when a wider edge is touching.
Those laws sure don't explain wide tires very well.
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OnTheWayOut
I bought my first AWD recently and one of the sales guys said not to buy snow tires because AWD was so awesome you don't need them. I didn't really believe him as i always used snow tires and even sold tires in the past. I drive a LOT for work and first small snowfall still had the all seasons on and put it to the test, trying to pass slower cars in a slushy passing lane on a country highway. I got my snows in a few days. I don't live in the city but would still get snows if I did since my job takes me out in all kinds of weather and I need to get there safely.
My FWD car with snows is great in the snow. My AWD without snows was OK. My AWD with snows makes me feel like I can get through anything. Just keep in mind that while you can GO better with snows you still need extra time to STOP. That's where folks with snows get in trouble, while snows stop better they still need more room in crappy weather. I've seen more than a few get caught with going too fast for conditions that they mis-judge stopping distance. I like to go fast but learned this simple lesson at a young age lol. So please stay off my bumper, especially when it's slippery out. I can go just as fast as you do, I'm just not that stupid.
My FWD car with snows is great in the snow. My AWD without snows was OK. My AWD with snows makes me feel like I can get through anything. Just keep in mind that while you can GO better with snows you still need extra time to STOP. That's where folks with snows get in trouble, while snows stop better they still need more room in crappy weather. I've seen more than a few get caught with going too fast for conditions that they mis-judge stopping distance. I like to go fast but learned this simple lesson at a young age lol. So please stay off my bumper, especially when it's slippery out. I can go just as fast as you do, I'm just not that stupid.
The law only applies when the wheels are locked. Maybe wide tires can keep better traction before locking up.Agreed.
Those laws sure don't explain wide tires very well.
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Pretty much agree with you.I bought my first AWD recently and one of the sales guys said not to buy snow tires because AWD was so awesome you don't need them. I didn't really believe him as i always used snow tires and even sold tires in the past. I drive a LOT for work and first small snowfall still had the all seasons on and put it to the test, trying to pass slower cars in a slushy passing lane on a country highway. I got my snows in a few days. I don't live in the city but would still get snows if I did since my job takes me out in all kinds of weather and I need to get there safely.
My FWD car with snows is great in the snow. My AWD without snows was OK. My AWD with snows makes me feel like I can get through anything. Just keep in mind that while you can GO better with snows you still need extra time to STOP. That's where folks with snows get in trouble, while snows stop better they still need more room in crappy weather. I've seen more than a few get caught with going too fast for conditions that they mis-judge stopping distance. I like to go fast but learned this simple lesson at a young age lol. So please stay off my bumper, especially when it's slippery out. I can go just as fast as you do, I'm just not that stupid.
The part about idiots tail gating,...the same feeble minded idiots will tail gate in any weather, which means they will have to foot the bill for damages to the car they hit plus theirs, when it was entirely possible that they would NOT have hit ANYBODY,...if they weren't idiots.
When ever you see an accident with multiple cars in a row, you can be guarantied that some tailgater caused it.
This along with left lane hogs, is my biggest peeve with drivers.
When driving and witnessing some of the most ridiculous driving/moves made by some, I say to myself, what the hell do they do for a living ?
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The bottom line is get winter tires for your 2WD car, as well as your AWD vehicle. For the 30 seconds you need it in the life of the car/vehicle it could save your life or keep you from being a cripple.
Sales guy told me the same thing, don't need winter tires with AWD. Is BS, they should not be telling people that.sales guys said not to buy snow tires because AWD was so awesome you don't need them ... first small snowfall still had the all seasons on and put it to the test, trying to pass slower cars in a slushy passing lane ...
4WD SUV's can accelerate faster, but they can't stop or maneuver any better, maybe worse than a regular car. Is the ability to stop and maneuver that is often most critical to avoid a collision.
Search "tire load sensitivity", or check video https://youtu.be/kNa2gZNqmT8Agreed.
Those laws sure don't explain wide tires very well.
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Car sale people are anyone that is willing to sit at a desk with no salary. The reason they tell you that you do not need winter tires is that they are afraid that they will scare you off if they have to ad the price of rims and winter tires on to the price. The other reason is that they are afraid you will ask for a discount on the tires and rims or try to get the rims for free in the deal. ( if you can not get the rims for free, ask for two rims free and pay for the other two )Sales guy told me the same thing, don't need winter tires with AWD. Is BS, they should not be telling people that.
I was at a Acura dealer recently and the salesman was not even aware that the model I was interested in had all wheel steering.
I don't need a video to confirm that wide tires, in MOST, but not all conditions, add grip.Sales guy told me the same thing, don't need winter tires with AWD. Is BS, they should not be telling people that.
4WD SUV's can accelerate faster, but they can't stop or maneuver any better, maybe worse than a regular car. Is the ability to stop and maneuver that is often most critical to avoid a collision.
Search "tire load sensitivity", or check video https://youtu.be/kNa2gZNqmT8
And not to forget that the diameter also has an affect on traction !
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The coefficient of friction is independent of surface area, the amount of fiction is not. The reason why skinny tires are better in soft snow is that they can cut through the snow and make contact with the pavement thus the coefficient is now partially with pavement with which the rubber has a higher coefficient. Traction from wide tires on dry pavement has a lot to do with surface stability and rigidity of the supporting platform. In fact it has been show with small light cars, you can get more dry payment traction on a track with smaller tires, as the tire can heat up more and therefore increase their coefficient of friction with the pavement.I posted it because it is a bit counter-intuitive, to me anyway. For idealized, dry conditions, the friction between a flat surface and an object is independent of the surface area of the object. That means, if a rectangular box is sliding on a flat surface, the friction is the same if a narrow edge is touching as when a wider edge is touching.
