Photo Radar in School zone and beyond

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,666
2,547
113
It would slow me down (if I was a speeder). And, to the people who continue to flout the law it provides a consistent revenue stream for hopefully public transit/bike infrastructure. Why use man power at an extremely high cost when it can be done much more cheaply with a camera?
What I said was move all the cops who regularly sit in fishing holes to school zones twice a day. They already have the manpower. But they won't because they can catch more in the sneaky spots, thus generating more revenue. I have several friends who are cops and that's what they tell me. They joke about the motto on the side of the cars. It should say "To Observe and Collect". Their words.

The ones who work for traffic services are expected to write a lot of tickets. One friend tells the number of people he can catch speeding in school zones is a fraction of what he can in typical fishing holes. It's all about revenue.

This is the results in Edmonton since photo radar's been introduced:
Severe collisions (fatal and injury): reduction of 32.1%
Property Damage Only collisions: reduction of 28.7%
Total collisions: reduction of 27.7%
Speed related property damage only collisions: reduction of 27.3%
Speed related collisions: reduction of 26.7%
I would question those numbers. Here's a good read, albeit a long one.

https://fcpp.org/sites/default/files/documents/Shimizu%20%26%20Desrochers%20-%20Speed%20or%20Greed.pdf

This is the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY.

Better engineered cars along with the adoption of seat belts and other road safety measures and legislation have contributed to a 58% decline in road fatalities in Canada between 1970 and 2009. The fatality rate is now so low that almost twice as many Canadians die from falling accidents
than traffic collisions. Between 1994 and 2009, the number of traffic-related serious injuries and total injuries also decreased drastically in spite of increased numbers of registered vehicles and licensed drivers. Despite historically low fatality and injury rates, however, many voices in municipal governments, police forces, and activist groups argue, based on “speed kills” rhetoric and alleged social costs of traffic collisions, that these numbers could be further reduced through ever more ubiquitous automated traffic enforcement (ATE) technologies which are already used widely in about 25 Canadian municipalities, most prominently Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg.

Despite ATE supporters’ contention that artificially low speed limit settings, increased fines, and rigorous enforcement can deter dangerous driving behaviours and improve public safety, little credible evidence actually supports this argument. On the other hand, there is some evidence that the implementation of proven engineering practices (such as better signage, speed limit setting more in tune with actual driving practices and slightly longer yellow light times) are the most effective way of reducing traffic violations and collisions.

Whatever the jurisdictional or regulatory context in which they are implemented, ATE programs all have the potential to create perverse incentives and conflicts of interests over revenue generation, especially when municipal and police budgets are facing shortfalls. Much evidence also suggests that many government institutions systematically underestimate the actual costs of ATE programs and often justify their existence on inflated social benefits. Program cost overruns, in turn, are ultimately shouldered by otherwise law-abiding drivers and other taxpayers. And
even though in most cases a relatively small fraction of provincial and municipal revenues is derived from such fines and penalties, one must ask about the ethics of budgeting fines and penalties as regular revenue sources when they are often imposed for very minor offences and justified as
public safety measures.

In Manitoba, where fines are so large as to be unaffordable, traffic tickets become an extremely regressive form of covert taxation, as it disproportionally affects people of lesser means. Also, a deliberate attempt to move traffic enforcement towards targeting the majority of careful
drivers rather than dangerous individuals can only result in growing public distrust towards governmental authorities and politicians.

The ultimate goal of governmental authorities towards road transportation should be to promote safety, not revenue generation for its own sake. This can best be achieved through fact-based engineering approaches (e.g., design and maintenance of the road, adequate signage, speed
limit setting), education, and sensible enforcement (which would include ATE program operations). And in the end, the additional revenues generated by ATE programs should be dedicated to further promoting road safety by being invested in improved infrastructure rather than become a permanent revenue generation fixture in governmental budgets.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,359
11
38
Even when they had the photo radar on the highways they never set them to catch you under 115-120. Besides it was common knowledge where they were most of the time - like tracking Santa. Even in school zones there will likely be a few km break (like allow 45-50 in a 40).

Simply don't speed and you don't need to pay the voluntary tax. Easier said than done but we all know the potential consequences.
I didn't know that. Cool.
 

captnkirk

New member
Oct 31, 2016
52
2
0
Even when they had the photo radar on the highways they never set them to catch you under 115-120. Besides it was common knowledge where they were most of the time - like tracking Santa. Even in school zones there will likely be a few km break (like allow 45-50 in a 40).

Simply don't speed and you don't need to pay the voluntary tax. Easier said than done but we all know the potential consequences.
I was involved in the ticket printing of the original photo radar. I can assure you that towards the end of the program, and because it was so effective at slowing people down, they were ticketing for as low as 110kph.
 

captnkirk

New member
Oct 31, 2016
52
2
0
This is the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY.
I would read the 2nd most far to right lobby group's opinions with a grain of salt, a doobie and a double scotch. They have an agenda and they are only going to publish what supports the agenda.

During photo radar's short lived life here the design of the roads and the vehicles traveling on those roads did not change. What changed was the use of technology to enforce speeds.

That the 407 is designed for speed is reason to start there with enforcing speed through the use of "Mathematica Radara"

We as a society have set the road racing rule as 150. We can also set the new maximum speed as 120 to recognize that the traditional 100 limit is too slow. Progressive fines applied for over 120 using the new science of Mathematics....and the magical relationship of distance traveled over time resulting in your average speed.

If you feel that you are special and do not need to abide by the laws of society then we will let you give the rest of us the middle finger but every time you do the 407 billing software will add on a speeding penalty to your bill. One time programming costs will be minimal; Revenue generated for supporting rapid transit will be astronomical.

Is the time you saved really that important that you are willing to pay the premium and risk lives?
total length of 407 : 130 kph
Time at 100 kph : 78 minutes
120 kph: 65 mins (-13 minutes)
150 kph: 52 mins -26 mins
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,666
2,547
113
Even when they had the photo radar on the highways they never set them to catch you under 115-120. Besides it was common knowledge where they were most of the time - like tracking Santa. Even in school zones there will likely be a few km break (like allow 45-50 in a 40).

Simply don't speed and you don't need to pay the voluntary tax. Easier said than done but we all know the potential consequences.
I know someone who got a photo radar ticket on the 401 for 106 km/h in a 100. I saw the ticket.

I was involved in the ticket printing of the original photo radar. I can assure you that towards the end of the program, and because it was so effective at generating revenue, they were ticketing for as low as 110kph.
I fixed your post.
 

gww

not banned
Mar 2, 2004
834
0
16
Somewhere but not here.
I know someone who got a photo radar ticket on the 401 for 106 km/h in a 100. I saw the ticket.



I fixed your post.
I got one from a regular check for 7 over going down hill. Most times I just pay if I was actaully but decided that one was stupid. Took it to court, listened to the judge blast the hell out of the prosecutor for 20 miniutes for wasting the court's time. Case was withdrawn pretty quickly as was several of the next ones up. Point being there are always exceptions.

They can set it for a couple over but the majority of the time it's reasonable. Still comes down to - don't speed and don't pay. School zones I would have no issue of putting them at a couple over the limit anyway.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,359
11
38
I know someone who got a photo radar ticket on the 401 for 106 km/h in a 100. I saw the ticket.



I fixed your post.
Fucking money hunger bastards. And the reason they do that is because it's automated and not personal. They don't give a fuck.
 

Mr. Piggy

Banned
Jul 4, 2007
3,033
1
0
Oshawa
I don't see the Liberals winning the next election.
Don't be to sure about that. I didn't think they would win the last election after everything Dickhead Dalton fucked up. I have never voted for them and never will.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
88,981
21,126
113
Nothing more than a cash grab, in the name of doing good.

I don't see the Liberals winning the next election.
Why don't you just write some letters to your local pc candidate and ask them to raise the speed limits in school zones?
 

The Mechanic

Active member
Jan 5, 2007
235
145
43
Yes I do have 2 detectors and yes save my bacon on many time the ONLY thing is lidar they are deadly
???

In school hours speed limits are lower (usually 40) and outside school hours limits are higher (usually 50)

What "slippery slope" is there???

WTF is a "photo radar detector" lmao, good luck finding one in the US
I can only assume you mean radar detector, the majority of which are useless
 

HEYHEY

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2005
2,530
629
113
I would read the 2nd most far to right lobby group's opinions with a grain of salt, a doobie and a double scotch. They have an agenda and they are only going to publish what supports the agenda.

During photo radar's short lived life here the design of the roads and the vehicles traveling on those roads did not change. What changed was the use of technology to enforce speeds.

That the 407 is designed for speed is reason to start there with enforcing speed through the use of "Mathematica Radara"

We as a society have set the road racing rule as 150. We can also set the new maximum speed as 120 to recognize that the traditional 100 limit is too slow. Progressive fines applied for over 120 using the new science of Mathematics....and the magical relationship of distance traveled over time resulting in your average speed.

If you feel that you are special and do not need to abide by the laws of society then we will let you give the rest of us the middle finger but every time you do the 407 billing software will add on a speeding penalty to your bill. One time programming costs will be minimal; Revenue generated for supporting rapid transit will be astronomical.

Is the time you saved really that important that you are willing to pay the premium and risk lives?
total length of 407 : 130 kph
Time at 100 kph : 78 minutes
120 kph: 65 mins (-13 minutes)
150 kph: 52 mins -26 mins

After 10 pm you can do the entire 407 at 200km/h + without a problem.
Our roads aren't the problem, incompetent drivers are. If you want to make driving safer time to step up the training and testing process and not fines.

BTW i will not be participating in this nonsense, for anyone with iq over room temperature there are simple solutions that make you invisible to photo radar.
 

captnkirk

New member
Oct 31, 2016
52
2
0
Nothing more than a cash grab, in the name of doing good.

I don't see the Liberals winning the next election.
And there is nothing wrong with grabbing cash from law breakers and directing that cash into rapid transit.
Even a law and order Reform party fart catcher could understand that concept.
 

JackBurton

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2012
1,931
737
113
I have every confidence that the government will use the excuse of putting photo radar in the school zones as a way to get them out into as many roads and highways they can. Plus I believe that they will tune it so you will get dinged going 105 kph in a 100kph zone. Of course they will because they know the hassle to fight it will be too much for some citizens.

What I want to know is if anyone has experience with photo radar dectectirs? Not for the reason so I can speed, I don't, I just want to beat them at their own deplorable game
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,666
2,547
113
Likely to be appealed, but interesting nonetheless.

Photo Radar Tickets Invalid in Quebec

Good news for anyone who has received a photo radar ticket in Quebec, as a recent court ruling has found the tickets to be invalid.

In a ruling obtained by Montreal newspaper La Presse, Judge Serge Cimon found that tickets for speeding that were based on photo radar evidence were inadmissible. In the ruling, Judge Cimon found that the problem is that the officer who writes the ticket wasn’t there for the violation. That means that they were not able to verify the speed limit at the location of the infraction and that they were not able to verify the calibration of the radar equipment. The Judge found that this means that any testimony from police based on the evidence is hearsay, due to being based on second-hand information.

The ruling may also impact Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s plans to implement photo radar in that province, as well as similar systems already in place in other provinces.

Judge Cimon’s ruling was scathing about the photo radar system, saying “the Court deplores the fact that the Sûreté du Québec has put in place an offense reporting system… in total contravention of the requirements.” The judgment also remarked that authorities tried to drop the charges before the trial, a move that “appears to be motivated by preventing the Court from considering the defendant’s claim.” That would have prevented the ruling, and the effect of invalidating the tickets, something the Department of Justice would prefer to avoid. The ruling also indicates that future defendants would be entitled to seek repayment of legal fees if prosecutors continued to file “evidence that they know to be unlawful.”

Since their introduction in 2009, the cameras have produced nearly 700,000 tickets and $92 million in revenue.

The Justice Department did not immediately comment on the matter but are likely to appeal such a broadly impacting decision.

http://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/20161130/quebec-judge-tosses-photo-radar-ticket/#MCx8GI3340BURhvq.97
 

IM469

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2012
11,142
2,472
113
Likely to be appealed, but interesting nonetheless.

Photo Radar Tickets Invalid in Quebec
You bet they will fight it. New road tolls, photo radar, ... I think that when all levels of government learned that people can still buy food - it was an indication that there is obviously more room to bleed money from the public.
 

dirkd101

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2005
10,331
94
63
eastern frontier
Why don't you just write some letters to your local pc candidate and ask them to raise the speed limits in school zones?

Whaa...It's just an observation Ff, having to do with a government that is out of control, fiscally speaking, with reference to the NDP and their failed photo radar scheme.


And there is nothing wrong with grabbing cash from law breakers and directing that cash into rapid transit.
Even a law and order Reform party fart catcher could understand that concept.
Which law breakers are you referring to? The person who is getting a ticket for going 3 km/h over the limit. If they really want to catch "law breakers", they would be installed at all major intersections, where there is a real danger to life, with those who run red lights, not school zones, where it's damned impossible to go anywhere near the speed limit with all the parents clogging the streets in their cars picking their kids up and when the kids are in class...where's the danger...

And, by "law and order" you certainly can't mean the HTA, as your reference is usually made with reference to the Criminal Code of Canada.



Putting these cameras in school zones is nothing more than smoke and mirrors for the Liberals, spinning it off as a safety measure, so that the lemmings will all applaud. This will do nothing to stop anyone from speeding through a school zone, it will only give them the ticket for having done so. Yet, if there was a cop doing this, he might just find out the reason for the speeding vehicle, which could be an impaired driver. On top of that, a police officer could find that that driver has no insurance either or is a suspended driver. These are things your "law and order" photo radar does nothing to stop. So where is your "law and order" and how is this anything to do with public safety?


And I guess most left wing liberlites have no brains to figure this out, only the Reform party types...
 

OddSox

Active member
May 3, 2006
3,148
2
36
Ottawa
After 10 pm you can do the entire 407 at 200km/h + without a problem.
Our roads aren't the problem, incompetent drivers are. If you want to make driving safer time to step up the training and testing process and not fines.

BTW i will not be participating in this nonsense, for anyone with iq over room temperature there are simple solutions that make you invisible to photo radar.
I got a photo radar ticket near Montreal a couple of years ago for going 111 in a 100 zone, on an empty 4-lane highway at 3:30 am. They even mailed it to me via registered XpressPost for a $71.00 ticket.

The only result is I don't go to Quebec any more...their loss.
 
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