Hydro Rates Going Up this Summer, Ontario Energy Board says

[Keebler Elf]

The OEB seems to increase rates whenever they please, not regulate like they should, but whenever they see a loss of revenue.

The OEB only "regulates" a few companies. And those they do you can watch the OEB hearings online; they're all public. The rates keep going up because costs to generate and transmit it are going up, plain and simple. If you've ever watched an OEB hearing (and obviously you haven't), you'd know that they're grilling the companies to keep the prices down. But when the infrastructure is aging and needs significant investment to keep it running, and the alternative is more expensive private power, guess what... the price keeps going up.

Anyone who doesn't expect to see their hydro rates going up every 6 months when the OEB does their rate changes is an idiot who must be living under a rock. The news is full of stories of how much electricity prices are increasing and why.

 

[Occasionally]

I can understand why governments have control of energy. They want to prevent private companies from jacking up rates big time in essential services.

But it sure is weird when the government themselves do it.

It's a shame too that for many types of fees we all pay that the government just jams it down out throats. It's not like we can all just quit our jobs, leave our friends, family and kids schools, and move to another city. 99.999% of us just live with it as another form of tax.

Although it would never happen, I'd truly like to see (even it was some kind of fancy business simulation), how well all these overpaid govt workers and depts would do if they competed with private companies with services. You have the big established govt doing services for 100 years vs. all kinds of big and small private businesses offering their own set of compatible service at their own quality and price.

Personally, given my experience with the way govts handle and pay for supplier bids, they would do lousy.

In my industry and seeing across many companies for the years, all I know is that whether it's Walmart or Bob's Furniture store, 100%... yes 100%.... of private businesses would negotiate better pricing and timing. What that would lead to is the government being out of the loop and would fail if they competed head to head with private business and businessmen.

 

[dirkd101]

If you've ever watched an OEB hearing (and obviously you haven't)

You're right, I haven't.

The rates keep going up because costs to generate and transmit it are going up, plain and simple.

Because nuclear energy, the Candu and its need for a cities worth of employees and all other associated costs with the nuclear industry are the reason.

Quebec, BC and Manitoba pay about half of what we Ontarians pay.

 

[Samurai Joey]

You're right, I haven't.




Because nuclear energy, the Candu and its need for a cities worth of employees and all other associated costs with the nuclear industry are the reason.

Quebec, BC and Manitoba pay about half of what we Ontarians pay.

Quebec, BC, and Manitoba have access to vast reserves of power that Ontario does not have (in fact, Quebec exports electric power to neighbouring provinces such as Ontario & New Brunswick along with neighbouring US states such as Vermont).

 

[dirkd101]

We have the same reserves as Manitoba and Quebec, topography is much the same. The issue is the governments unwillingness to negotiate for the use of the land that needs to be used for building dams, how remote these projects will be and also their unwillingness to tell the environmentalists to fuckoff, because they will lose votes. Quebec did this back in the 70's with the James Bay project. I haven't heard anything about the environmental impact of this project now.
Manitoba took the same stance and built projects in their north, the Nelson River Project and the Churchill Diversion, both in remote areas and topography that isn't dissimilar to what you would find in northern Ontario.

 

[nottyboi]

Today about 15% of power in the USA is used for lighting. So what do you think it was when lights consumed 10x the power :yo:

 

[nottyboi]

I wonder when/if they will start converting the grid to DC for long distance transmission lines. Apparently this massively reduced transmission losses.

[edit] seems like there is already a HVDC line to Quebec, I expect this is probably grow. Ontario should be Quebec biggest customer for power.

 

[KBear]

Wonder how much more the government can suck out of the economy before things start to collapse. Increasing hydro rates, carbon taxes, road tolls, new pension plan fees, increases in income tax, higher user fees. Hard to keep track or all the new taxes.

 

[eznutz]

When you see debt like this, you can see why they need all the tax revenue they can get their hands on.
This is from the Liberal's 2015 year-end financial, and to think it was only $140 billion when they took power.

If you want to check out the provinces books for yourself, here are the last 20 years...
http://www.ontla.on.ca/library/repository/ser/15767/

 

[eznutz]

If you're interested in knowing how much interest we pay on our debt, here you go...
http://www.fao-on.org/web/default/files/publications/FAO_EFA_EN.pdf

 

[eznutz]

Newly unearthed documents suggest Ontario’s Liberal government could have saved hydro customers $1.5 billion by terminating an agreement with Samsung, but decided against it. http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada...o-cut-1-5b-in-hydro-bills-documents-1.2912611

 

[rhuarc29]

Our ridiculous rates aren't due to our energy mix, but to extraordinary mismanagement and no accountability for it. If private companies ran their business like the government does, either heads would roll or they'd be out of business, and rightfully so. Unfortunately, government employees get a pass for repeatedly screwing up and the government doesn't subscribe to the usual rules of supply and demand and hence can simply take more money through taxes and fees because hell, what are Canadians going to do? Uproot and move? And so it is a slow, painful death, one that many countries are experiencing. We are heading for the cliff. Canada won't the first to go, but it won't be spared. Frankly, those in power don't have the will to stop it.

 

[Submariner]

We have the same reserves as Manitoba and Quebec, topography is much the same. The issue is the governments unwillingness to negotiate for the use of the land that needs to be used for building dams, how remote these projects will be and also their unwillingness to tell the environmentalists to fuckoff, because they will lose votes. Quebec did this back in the 70's with the James Bay project. I haven't heard anything about the environmental impact of this project now.
Manitoba took the same stance and built projects in their north, the Nelson River Project and the Churchill Diversion, both in remote areas and topography that isn't dissimilar to what you would find in northern Ontario.

Sorry Dirk, but this is not quite right.

The complete potential for hydroelectric development in Ontario was well known by the 1940's, including all of the northern reaches of the province. Those sites were developed starting as early as the 1920's and continued though to the 1960's, long before Quebec's development of James Bay and Manitoba's development on the Nelson River. In those days, Ontario Hydro pretty much did what they wanted since there were no environmentalists to tell fuck off to, and indigenous peoples were just fucked over, no matter what they said. (decades later, apologies were made, e.g. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/gull-bay-first-nation-gets-apology-from-ontario-power-generation-1.2870505.
Another example was the deliberate flooding of several towns along the St. Lawrence for the Saunders/Moses power project. http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/the-lost-villages/.

So Ontario Hydro certainly had the cajones to fuck whomever over in the name of progress. By the end of the 1960's, every major site worth developing for hydroelectric power in Ontario had been tapped. This is why Ontario Hydro started to build coal fired stations beginning in the 1950's. Growth in electricity demand could no longer be met by hydroelectric development in Ontario.

Now, there are a few major rivers in northern Ontario without any hydro development .... the Albany, the Severn, the Attawapiskat, the Winisk. But the topography along these rivers is not the same as the sites where the big developments are located on the Nelson River in Manitoba and the Eastmain and Grande Rivers in Quebec. The rivers in northern Ontario have large flows, but virtually no drop in elevation (not enough "head") and no sites at which to build a dam and a forebay. Not enough head and nobody's happy.

In summary, the hydroelectric resources are not the same, with installed hydroelectric capacity is as follows:
Ontario - 8,400 MW
Quebec - 36,000 MW
Manitoba - 5,200 MW.

 

[Submariner]

Our ridiculous rates aren't due to our energy mix, but to extraordinary mismanagement and no accountability for it.

I would say it is a bit of both. The current energy mix is largely the result of Liberal policy, and if keeping prices down is your goal, then that policy is failing. No accountability? I agree, but then again that accountability ultimately resides with the voters. I tried to hold McGuinty and then Wynn accountable, but not enough of us did. So you wants it, you gets it.

 

[Submariner]

I wonder when/if they will start converting the grid to DC for long distance transmission lines. Apparently this massively reduced transmission losses. [edit] seems like there is already a HVDC line to Quebec, I expect this is probably grow. Ontario should be Quebec biggest customer for power.

There already are HVDC lines in service around the world, including Quebec and Manitoba. Although there is advantages in transmitting power over long distances, under water, and other scenarios, there are disadvantages related to conversion back to AC, switching, control, etc.

Regarding the notion that Ontario should be the Quebec's biggest customer, think again. The part of Hydro Quebec that sells electricity on the interconnects is known as Hydro Quebec Energy Markets (HQEM). These guys sell at market rates and are (literally) world famous for holding guns to customers heads and fucking them over whenever they can. That even includes customers in Quebec on big demand days (it's a long story, but true). So whenever I hear people say "golly, we should just tap into all that cheap hydroelectric power from Quebec", get over it. There isn't any. It always get sold at market rates no matter what the source or to whom it gets sold.

 

[Submariner]

Quebec, BC, and Manitoba have access to vast reserves of power that Ontario does not have (in fact, Quebec exports electric power to neighbouring provinces such as Ontario & New Brunswick along with neighbouring US states such as Vermont).

You are mostly correct Joey. Quebec and BC have greater hydroelectric resources than Ontario, but Manitoba actually has less hydroelectric capacity than Ontario (5,200 MW for Manitoba, 8,400 MW for Ontario). However, Manitoba's system is much smaller with a record peak demand of 4,700 MW versus 27,000 MW for Ontario. Since Manitoba's hydroelectric capacity is usually more than their own needs this allows them to export some of that power.

 

[wigglee]

I usually take a ride on The Maid of the Mist when I'm at the Falls. No so much for enjoyment but to see the water quality for myself. It's absolutely disgusting!

Likewise, I drink from the toilette bowl once a month, just to make sure shit still tastes like shit.

 

[rhuarc29]

I would say it is a bit of both. The current energy mix is largely the result of Liberal policy, and if keeping prices down is your goal, then that policy is failing. No accountability? I agree, but then again that accountability ultimately resides with the voters. I tried to hold McGuinty and then Wynn accountable, but not enough of us did. So you wants it, you gets it.

When the choices are between a turd, a shite, and monkey feces, how can the voter reasonably hold politicians accountable besides outright revolution? I haven't voted in the provincial elections the last two times around, because I thought all the main candidates were horrible.

You are right, it's a bit of both. However, a diverse energy mix is an important and IMO necessary investment. But doing it the way our government has is incredibly wasteful. Frankly, if your hydro rates are worse than BC's, you know you're doing something wrong! When you're more than double, you gone fucked up bad!!

 

[Submariner]

When the choices are between a turd, a shite, and monkey feces, how can the voter reasonably hold politicians accountable besides outright revolution? I haven't voted in the provincial elections the last two times around, because I thought all the main candidates were horrible.

Yep, hard to tell if the devil you know is actually worse than the devil you don't know. What was his name ...... "Who-Dat"?

 

[nottyboi]

There already are HVDC lines in service around the world, including Quebec and Manitoba. Although there is advantages in transmitting power over long distances, under water, and other scenarios, there are disadvantages related to conversion back to AC, switching, control, etc.

Regarding the notion that Ontario should be the Quebec's biggest customer, think again. The part of Hydro Quebec that sells electricity on the interconnects is known as Hydro Quebec Energy Markets (HQEM). These guys sell at market rates and are (literally) world famous for holding guns to customers heads and fucking them over whenever they can. That even includes customers in Quebec on big demand days (it's a long story, but true). So whenever I hear people say "golly, we should just tap into all that cheap hydroelectric power from Quebec", get over it. There isn't any. It always get sold at market rates no matter what the source or to whom it gets sold.

Well I am sure a deal can be struck, if not just tell them the alternative is we will build massive nukes and more wind power and dump our off peak surplus right into their markets.