^^^^^^^^^^^^thisI really think Toronto should charge tolls to 905r's that use the DVP and Gardiner during rush hour. Stick the damn cameras up and toll those mofos into oblivion.
Said no government who ever wanted to get re-elected. Automobile drivers already pay tax on the purchase of their vehicles, parts, service, licence renewals, tires, fuel etc. It would be political suicide to even suggest that.IMO if you want to generate revenue off of toll roads, then they should toll the whole highway and not just 1 lane. Spread the cost across all highway users instead of a select few that are willing to pay. I'm not quite sure what the problem with toll roads is generally because transit is paid for with a combination of taxes and user fees. Why should highways be any different?
Is it fair that someone living in the 905 region that uses any Toronto highway does not contribute to the upkeep and maintenance of the highway?Said no government who ever wanted to get re-elected. Automobile drivers already pay tax on the purchase of their vehicles, parts, service, licence renewals, tires, fuel etc. It would be political suicide to even suggest that.
The problem is for most people it's far less time consuming and more convenient to own and drive a car than it is to take public transit. Until transit is more efficient, people are going to drive. Government talks a big talk but with Toronto's current capacity for public transit, they couldn't possibly handle a 20% increase in ridership. They tell people to ditch the car but our current transit system can only handle so many people at the moment. It's why people drive.
Aside from insurance and the initial cost of buying a car, driving it is the cheapest expense but offers the greatest convenience. Consider the typical family with a couple kids. Imagine leaving for work, dropping the kids off at daycare, getting to work, stopping on the way home to pick up groceries, returning to pick them back up then home at the end of the day, all by public transit. Hell, even a Metropass is $1,700 a year.
People choose the path of least resistance. The auto makes the most sense for most people. Not too many people choose to drive to work if it takes twice as long and costs twice as much!
For me, it's an issue of fairness. Is it fair that someone can pay for a toll while other people have to use the regular lanes? The implementation of HOV lanes is a bit wonky IMO. I've driven up the 404 near Highway 7 a few times. Smooth sailing (usually) from 401 north, but you run into a log jam when you try to merge back into the regular lanes.People here talking like Ontario is breaking new ground are hilarious. There are no unsolved problems here, many places have HOT lanes and they work fine and have efficient, automated systems. Ontario is one of the last places in North America to do this, the many others already solved it.
There are various systems. For example, in some you can only drive in the HOT lane if you have 2+ occupants OR you have enrolled in the program and acquired a transponder. The transponders are switchable so you can turn them off and not pay the toll if you have a second person. Drive without a transponder and without a second passenger, get pulled over and get a ticket by police who can run your license to see if you paid the toll.
Lots of cities already have had this system running for a decade, it works, and it is efficient.
Aren't they already paying by virtue of the high gas taxes, with the amount directly correlated to consumption? You can also add in the Liberals HST bump on gasoline.Is it fair that someone living in the 905 region that uses any Toronto highway does not contribute to the upkeep and maintenance of the highway?
Actually I believe the city is responsible fiscally for the sections of the DVP and QEW located within the city limits. Hence all the arguments over what to do with it. The the province has in fact down loaded other services while not properly transferring cash to cover them.Aren't they already paying by virtue of the high gas taxes, with the amount directly correlated to consumption? You can also add in the Liberals HST bump on gasoline.
The problem is they are simply out of ideas beyond more taxes. The Liberals in particular have zero accountability for how they spend it, they just know they want to spend more. It is like giving an allowance to a crack addict, and then raising their allowance because they ran out of crack.
Yes, it's fair. Anyone can pay the toll if they think it worthwhile.For me, it's an issue of fairness. Is it fair that someone can pay for a toll while other people have to use the regular lanes?
Yeah because "to each according to what he afford" is communist.Just another cash grab by the communist Ontario liberals.
The point I think here is how much of the supposedly already dedicated taxes and fees for road maintenance and improvements is actually going to it, and how much of it is ending up in the general coffers for use in other things.Yeah because "to each according to what he afford" is communist.
Some of the comments here are beyond stupid...
That is my belief as well. Is it any different than people paying to jump the wait list to see their doctor? What about paying to jump the line at any government building? It's the same thing.For me, it's an issue of fairness. Is it fair that someone can pay for a toll while other people have to use the regular lanes?
Correct, gas taxes are far less in the US which is why they supplement revenue with road tolls. Here, they want revenue from both gas tax and road tolls. With the amount of money the Liberals piss away, it's no wonder they need to double dip.Actually I believe the city is responsible fiscally for the sections of the DVP and QEW located within the city limits. Hence all the arguments over what to do with it. The the province has in fact down loaded other services while not properly transferring cash to cover them.
We were told that all the other fees were to supply the maintenance. That's why they were added on. In other jurisdictions like the USA the gas taxes etc are not nearly as high. Hence the tolls. User pay.
This is a cash grab. They are broke.
Well, they do have a monkey on their back. http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/The point I think here is how much of the supposedly already dedicated taxes and fees for road maintenance and improvements is actually going to it, and how much of it is ending up in the general coffers for use in other things.
Every time a new levy is brought in the reason is the same. At some point, considering the continued deficits and lack of proper maintenance I think questioning this is valid.
Supposedly these roads were paid for by all. These aren't new highways or even lanes. They are existing infrastructure and from what we were told all the existing taxes would cover them.
So what has changed?
Fuji posts always make me laugh! I guess in his mind if he speaks "firmly" people will assume his posts contain researched fact. But the truth is, Fuji BSs allot and I believe most people by now realize that.People here talking like Ontario is breaking new ground are hilarious. There are no unsolved problems here, many places have HOT lanes and they work fine and have efficient, automated systems. Ontario is one of the last places in North America to do this, the many others already solved it.
There are various systems. For example, in some you can only drive in the HOT lane if you have 2+ occupants OR you have enrolled in the program and acquired a transponder. The transponders are switchable so you can turn them off and not pay the toll if you have a second person. Drive without a transponder and without a second passenger, get pulled over and get a ticket by police who can run your license to see if you paid the toll.
Lots of cities already have had this system running for a decade, it works, and it is efficient.
Bang on ! People are speaking as if the highway is an optional luxury mode of transportation that has not been paid for. The highway is part of a transportation infrastructure to move people and goods to sustain the economic growth of the city. If you look at nature's version of the pumping blood through the body - it's not much different. Restrict traffic with these tax money collection schemes, you start to affect economic health by incurring additional costs and delays to all businesses. That is my biggest beef with the utterly insane moronic decision to take the vital 407 - a major thoroughfare vital to the future of a growing economy - and ransom this economic necessity to a foreign enterprise concerned with maximising profit over the economic needs of the community that it was put in place to serve.The point I think here is how much of the supposedly already dedicated taxes and fees for road maintenance and improvements is actually going to it, and how much of it is ending up in the general coffers for use in other things.
Every time a new levy is brought in the reason is the same. At some point, considering the continued deficits and lack of proper maintenance I think questioning this is valid.
Supposedly these roads were paid for by all. These aren't new highways or even lanes. They are existing infrastructure and from what we were told all the existing taxes would cover them.
So what has changed?
As such a well-informed insider, I think you owe us TERBians more updates on the secret purposes and strategies of the government of which you must be a member. A daily blog would be best.They aren't going to that kind of effort - the end game is to tax everyone in the HOV lane, then the highway and as soon as it's feasible - as soon as you back out your driveway. They are suggesting they are only putting in the tip but we all know how that story ends.
Your concerns belong in the Technology Forum, surely.Did you even think about what you wrote? Explain how this high-tech computer system is going to work. It peers into the front and rear seats looking for more than one occupant? Then if it only sees a driver it sends the owner of the vehicle a bill? No margin for error there. I'm sure the systems are so sophisticated they can see a sleeping baby in a car seat in the back of an SUV with tinted windows, at night.
And as for flagging cars with passengers who look suspiciously dummy-like. Then what, they send a cop to pursue the vehicle and pull it over on the shoulder? Nothing like a cop with lights flashing at the side of the road to cause a traffic jam.
Just look at the current HOV lanes. Already filled with single occupant drivers. Cops would have to write an awful lot of tickets pay a "profit", what with them making 100K a year plus the cost of all the equipment they use.
I didn't say I hate user-pay tolls, I'm simply wondering how they will charge people for use. Demanding higher taxes would also work. On the other hand, if the government would stop pissing away billions (as the Auditor General recently pointed out) they wouldn't need to add tolls.
I 110% agree! ~40 years ago the Burlington skyway bridge and Garden skyway bridge had a toll. The toll stayed long enough to pay the bridges-off and were then removed. I'm not opposed to doing the same for new highways as long as the tolls are reasonable and are removed when the financial target is hit. Assuming the politicians can be trusted to keep their word. The current 407 model is moronic.Bang on ! People are speaking as if the highway is an optional luxury mode of transportation that has not been paid for. The highway is part of a transportation infrastructure to move people and goods to sustain the economic growth of the city. If you look at nature's version of the pumping blood through the body - it's not much different. Restrict traffic with these tax money collection schemes, you start to affect economic health by incurring additional costs and delays to all businesses. That is my biggest beef with the utterly insane moronic decision to take the vital 407 - a major thoroughfare vital to the future economic of a growing economy - and ransom this economic necessity to a foreign enterprise concerned with maximising profit over the economic needs of the community that it was put in place to serve.
Back to name-calling eh oldjones? Another yahoo post.As such a well-informed insider, I think you owe us TERBians more updates on the secret purposes and strategies of the government of which you must be a member. A daily blog would be best.
Clearly you are a fervent — but secret — socialist valiantly trying to preserve The People's Democratic Free Sidewalks and Roads. And Bicycle Lanes and Parking on the Free Roads and, …, and …. Yay for you! Higher taxes for ALL!