Zunera Ishaq cleared by court to take citizenship oath wearing niqab

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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The Supreme court clearly disagrees with you though.
Never got to the Supreme Court. First Court read the law, and so ruled that the government had no authority to put a Minister's order ahead of someone's preferred religious practice. The opposite was true, the Minister was specifically required to accommodate differing religions. Government lost again in the Federal Appeal Court, for precisely the same reasons. They didn't ask that Court to delay the ruling pending appeal (as they did in the Bedford/C36 hoorah).

Instead they waited until late in the campaign to ask another judge, who asked them "Why? What reaon do you offer for delaying?" They had none. Her ruling specifically said that because the government offered no reason, she could not possibly hold up this woman's oath.

That choice to ask without a single reason, was the Harper campaign chucking their Dead Cat onto the table.

They never wanted it to get to the Supremes. They'da lost again. Won't hurt if their Rump belives it was the Bad Supreme Court that said, "obey the law". The Rump neither knows nor cares about that.
 
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SkyRider

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"aside from the religious aspect, I like how it makes me feel: like people have to look beyond what I look like"

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...-wear-a-niqab-at-my-citizenship-ceremony.html

In her own words, Miss Ishaq said there are two reasons why she wears the niqab.

1) Religion - On the religion point, she and the Taliban are in agreement. On the other hand many other Muslims (e.g. Malala) disagree there is a religious requirement to wear the niqab and don't wear it.

2) She likes it -- On that point I agree with her, Canadians should be legally allow to wear or not wear whatever they want. I like to wear a baseball cap and sunglasses. On the other hand I would never willingly wear a white hood and robe nor a brownshirt.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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You'er only making yourself look worse,...basketcase,...!!!

I said,...over and over again,...I want to be free from "religion" being forced on me,...if you can't understand that,...then you are,...a dummy....

FAST
Seems you only consider one religion being 'forced' on you while you happily participate in others.

And how the fuck is a woman wearing a veil at a ceremony you will never see being 'forced' on you.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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...
1) Religion - On the religion point, she and the Taliban are in agreement. On the other hand many other Muslims (e.g. Malala) disagree there is a religious requirement to wear the niqab and don't wear it.
...
Again you are acting like you get to decide how people display their religion. Some Christians prominently wear crosses to show their religious beliefs, some Jews wear yarmulkes as an aspect of their religious beliefs. Same with Sikhs and turbans. They all wear it because they see it as a religious belief and Canada backs their right to wear them. I don't see you complaining about those religions being 'forced' upon you.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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"aside from the religious aspect, I like how it makes me feel: like people have to look beyond what I look like"

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...-wear-a-niqab-at-my-citizenship-ceremony.html

In her own words, Miss Ishaq said there are two reasons why she wears the niqab.

1) Religion - On the religion point, she and the Taliban are in agreement. On the other hand many other Muslims (e.g. Malala) disagree there is a religious requirement to wear the niqab and don't wear it.

2) She likes it -- On that point I agree with her, Canadians should be legally allow to wear or not wear whatever they want. I like to wear a baseball cap and sunglasses. On the other hand I would never willingly wear a white hood and robe nor a brownshirt.
Your claim was that she said she was required by her religion to wear it. You still haven't produced any evidence, and the sentence fragment you quote doesn't say that. It's very telling that you ignore the rest of her statement in the article you cited:

The Star said:
It’s precisely because I won’t listen to how other people want me to live my life that I wear a niqab. Some of my own family members have asked me to remove it. I have told them that I prefer to think for myself.

That I don’t have to worry about my physical appearance and can concentrate on my inner self. That it empowers me in this regard.

While I recognize that it’s not for everyone, it is for me. To me, the most important Canadian value is the freedom to be the person of my own choosing. To me, that’s more indicative of what it means to be Canadian than what I wear.

I am looking, however, for Mr. Harper to govern according to the law of Canada and not according his own personal preference. That is why I was very happy when the Federal Court ruled in my favour and found that the policy was not in line with the government’s own Citizenship Act.

And now that Mr. Harper is so busy speaking about me in public, I am looking for him to include me in the discussion
Your "two points" are your own utterly spurious inventions.

1) the Taliban, like Harper, believe it is proper for them to force their preferred political and religious correctness on others. They both buttress their claimed 'entitlement' by invoking religious authorities: Harper's mouthpiece Kenney called on the Grand Mufti of Cairo to dictate to a Pakistani about a religion that barely has formal clergy, never mind a hierarchy, and the Taliban use any and every 'authority' especially power, but never the only one that matters: The individual's conscience and belief. Just like Harper. However, that is the only religious authority our Charter recognizes. As to Ms. Ishaq, any suggestion she believes all should wear it, or worse be required to is entirely your false invention.

2) she doesn't just like it the way you like bubble gum and ball caps. She believes it expresses her personal commitment to the modest life her religion enjoins. That sort of serious attachment to higher values is entirely proper for a solemn oath-taking. Your ballcap is a trivial fashion choice and as inappropriate as bubblegum in such a venue. There is no Charter right to equal clothing, and you'll be counselled to dress befitting the occasion. Coached at the door if need be.

But it is interesting you also mentioned clothing that symbolizes bigotry: I'd be arguing for you, along with the CCLA, if the government was trying to muzzle your peaceful expression of your beliefs and ideas by forbidding either costume. Even if I considered the symbolic dress as bigoted as speech. But first, to stop you, the government would have to pass a law. Which they did not do in this case.

You see in Canada, our values place freedom of belief and freedom of speech above the dictatorial whims of government, particularly when that government is ignoring and breaking their own laws. Which is another issue you continue to duck along with finally providing evidence that Ms. Ishaq wears her veil, as you say, because she must.
 
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canada-man

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Again you are acting like you get to decide how people display their religion. Some Christians prominently wear crosses to show their religious beliefs, some Jews wear yarmulkes as an aspect of their religious beliefs. Same with Sikhs and turbans. They all wear it because they see it as a religious belief and Canada backs their right to wear them. I don't see you complaining about those religions being 'forced' upon you.
they don't hide their faces. there is no comparison
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Not the slightest relevance to Canadian citizenship or this case which is settled. She's a citizen now.

You've mused elsewhere about refusing healthcare to smokers. Are you covertly suggesting mandatory testing for VitaminD levels here? And refusing citizenship oaths to those who don't meet your prescribed threshold? It is to laugh.

Just do it by passing a law, and you'll be way out in front of Harper who rules by decree. Like all the 'Our Dear Leaders' do.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1101_1150/veil_and_the_niqab.htm

"To be certain, there are 177 Ayahs about women in the Quran (verses that have the word 'women' in them). Not one requires women to wear a niqab. Not one requires women to cover themselves in an all-enveloping outer garment."
How many words are there in the Bible that require believers to wear crosses? There are none. Not one. Does that make it right for a PM to break the law and order the citizenship oath be refused on his say-so, to anyone wearing a cross? Or something he thinks might be seen as a cross?

Please remember the cross is a horrible instrument of torture and agonizing death used by a cruel and barbarous people against countless numbers of victims in public displays of vengeful repression. Whatever symbolic attributes a believer might endow it with, that is the reality, as well as the horrible and prolonged torture and suffering of one single victim the believer might want to invoke. But why should we have to endure the sight of such a hideous device and recall its horrific use?

Enough with the silly, irrelevant, and faulty analogies. Try dealing with the case that is the topic. And the continuing oppression of women it illustrates, by the PM in this instance.

If you really want to have an empty and pointless go-round among guys talking silly generalities and suppositions about women's niqabs, why not start a thread?
 

SkyRider

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they don't hide their faces. there is no comparison
There's no point trying to reason with folks who consider themselves to be the "politically correct" elite. The truth is that many real Muslims have said there is no religious requirement to wear the niqab (despite what the Taliban and Mullahs say). Proof is that over 400,000 female Muslim Canadian women do not wear the niqab.

As one young Muslim woman said on the Stephen LeDrew show, it is actually a question of freedom of choice to dress as one pleases. On this point I agree with the court. The question then is whether it is appropriate (not legal or not) to cover one's face at the citizenship ceremony. The vast majority do not cover their faces. Does Miss Ishaq (as do you and I) have the legal right to cover her face? Yes. Was it appropriate? No.
 

SkyRider

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I'm just still waiting to hear how a woman wearing a veil at a ceremony you'd never see is a violation of your rights.
Ok one more time. It's not complicated.

1) Is it a religious requirement for a Muslim woman to wear the niqab? Answer: No
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1101_1150/veil_and_the_niqab.htm

2) Does a Muslim or a non-Muslim have the freedom to dress anyway they like. Answer: Yes

3) Is it appropriate to cover one's face at the citizenship ceremony. Answer: No
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Ok one more time. It's not complicated.

1) Is it a religious requirement for a Muslim woman to wear the niqab? Answer: No
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1101_1150/veil_and_the_niqab.htm

2) Does a Muslim or a non-Muslim have the freedom to dress anyway they like. Answer: Yes

3) Is it appropriate to cover one's face at the citizenship ceremony. Answer: No
As you say, all very simple:

1)Is it a requirement for the PM and Cabinet Ministers to obey the law? Yes.

2) Did Ms. Ishaq always have the right to wear her veil if she chose to when swearing her oath? Yes.

3) Did the Minister obey the law's requirement to accommodate her religious preference when he banned the niqab? Absolutely not.

If you now want to move the discussion to what is appropriate attire — wasn't it you who suggested ball caps and welding masks? — please begin by coming up with a useful definition of 'appropriate'. The sort of clear concise definition that would be useful for a lower grade swivel servant checking the attendance list for the ceremony.

Of course we could just leave it to the mature judgement of reasonable adults. If you recall, that's where things stood four or five years ago.

That was before Harper began stirring up as much fuss as he could generate by not properly passing a law banning the niqab. So his illegal decree was overturned as soon as it was challenged. And overturned again on appeal. He nicely timed this final turn-down by the Court for the end of the campaign, and guaranteed he'd get that turn-down because his lawyer offered the judge no reason at all, and made no argument why this patently illegal ban shouldn't be voided immediately.

As planned, he suckered all sorts of guys who thought this was about niqabs and Our Dear Leader was just a well-meaning guy trying to do something about them. Although it was nothing legal, competent or respectful of Canadian rights and values even though he had four years and a Parliamentary majority to do it.

We'll see Monday if it paid politically. My bet is he kept his Reform Rump happy, but didn't gain a single vote. Look for 2:1 against all over again.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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Seems you only consider one religion being 'forced' on you while you happily participate in others.

And how the fuck is a woman wearing a veil at a ceremony you will never see being 'forced' on you.
Are you really getting less and less intelligent,...or still playing the dummy tactic.

A person is allowed to hide their face at a ceremony celebrating their acceptance as a Canadian citizen,...ONLY because of the incorrect assumption that it is a RELIGIOUS requirement.

I am forced to accept that insult due to that persons supposed RELIGIOUS constraints.

And once again,...I don't give a shit what religion is used to allow the insult,...makes no difference,...its still an insult.

As is being forced to have a civil servant,...while hiding their face,...question me about anything other than the weather,...this I have no choice.

They are ONLY allowed to hide their face for,...wait for it,....RELIGION .

I've tried to make this as simple as possible for ya,...let me know if you need more help.

FAST
 
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Aardvark154

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As said before wearing a head scarf is one thing, covering your face is another. Have we reached the point where one can say that my religion compels me to wear a bakalava.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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As said before wearing a head scarf is one thing, covering your face is another. Have we reached the point where one can say that my religion compels me to wear a balaclava.
False analogy, as no recognized religion mandates balaclava wearing and it sounds ridiculous.

Let's do it this way. You object to a RC nun wearing religious garb and tell her that nowhere in the Bible is there reference to it? Or you tell a Jew that nowhere in the Talmud is there reference to a yarmulke? Same thing, right?
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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As said before wearing a head scarf is one thing, covering your face is another. Have we reached the point where one can say that my religion compels me to wear a bakalava.
You're a tad late to the party RD. But you're right in line with those who want to force their preferred dress-code on women, and deny their right to choose otherwise. None of them has yet quoted a women's words that support the bigots' claim they're protecting her from being forced by someone else. You'll have noted Sky's post just above, as an example of free choice by a woman unfazed by family pressure, and our government's illegal attempt to force their preference on her at a time when she swears to live by the Charter they flagrantly breached.

But this matter is settled, the illegal action has been halted by the Court, and Ms. Ishaq is now a citizen who can vote for freedom and human rights or coerced conformity without lawful rights, just like the rest of us.

If you and others still think it's worthwhile parsing the religious purity of someone else's fashion choice have at it. Just don't try to pretend you have any right to force your repressive beliefs on others. Or at least have the honesty to set up your chosen repression openly and by lawful means.

As for your attempt at reductio ad absurdam let me counter by pointing out 'we' in the west long ago reached the point where a cross-dresser in white could dictate that your religion compelled you to eat fish by the calendar, believe that virgins have children and that other virginal† cross-dressers could turn simple foods into bleeding human flesh which the faithful were then compelled to eat. And noting that the crossdressers wear symbolic slave collars to boot. Makes a military/police standard-issue balaclava sound like schoolgirl stuff.

Why not try for why it should be any of our business what she — or he — believes? Or wears.
-----
†We must always recall that his god's universal commands were apparently inoperative in slavic-language areas, where married cross-dressers could also do those churchly miracles.
 
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