Another Malaysian Airways flight down over Ukraine....

[mandrill]

http://nr.news-republic.com/Web/ArticleWeb.aspx?regionid=4&articleid=26270822&m=m

Rebels hand over the black boxes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...warns-EU-veiled-dig-Merkel.html#ixzz388zjtSls

British PM likened the failure to tackle Vladimir Putin to the appeasement of Hitler in the 1930s, while Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said Russia risked becoming a 'pariah state' if it carried on arming rebels. Threatened increased sanctions within days.

Kerry said the United States had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.

It had also intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian radar-guided SA-11 missile system, which it blames for the Boeing 777's destruction. "It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia," Kerry said in an interview on CNN.

"There's enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," he said on CBS.

Kerry's evidence of a Russian connection tracked closely with an official unclassified U.S. intelligence summary released over the weekend. It said intelligence analysts confirmed the authenticity of an audiotaped conversation provided to the press by Ukrainian authorities of a known separatist leader boasting of downing the plane.

"We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia" that includes missile systems, it said.

The disaster has sharply deepened the Ukrainian crisis in which the separatists in the Russian-speaking east have been fighting government forces since protesters in Kiev forced out a pro-Moscow president and Russia annexed Crimea in March.

The United States has already imposed sanctions on individuals and businesses close to Putin but Kerry indicated that President Barack Obama might go further. "The president is prepared to take additional steps," he told Fox News, although he ruled out sending in U.S. troops.

European Union ministers should be ready to announce a fresh round of sanctions at a meeting of the EU's Foreign Affairs Council this week, said a statement from British Prime Minister David Cameron's office, issued after telephone calls with French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

"They ... agreed that the EU must reconsider its approach to Russia and that foreign ministers should be ready to impose further sanctions on Russia when they meet on Tuesday," it said. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...lane-idUSKBN0FP02O20140721?utm_source=twitter

The US position.

 

[stay]

Oagre: respectfully, the problem I have with anything that comes out of the US is credibility. The amount of people who lost their lives due to the misrepresentation of facts shows that the US and allies are willing ng to sacrifice lives. I would say the same is true on the Russian side. News agencies use buzzwords like rebels, seperatist, gorella, freedom fighter etc to describe groups of people to make the population believe in a cause.
As my cousin states ( yes he is one of those military guys ), there are mercanaries fighting on both sides of this conflict, four groups who have a vested interest in this plane. What is missing is getting the bodies returned, that is job one.
If you speak Russian, you should see the crap on http://www.odnoklassniki.ru/

The saddest part of conflict is the senseless loss of life.

 

[mandrill]

Oagre: respectfully, the problem I have with anything that comes out of the US is credibility. The amount of people who lost their lives due to the misrepresentation of facts shows that the US and allies are willing ng to sacrifice lives. I would say the same is true on the Russian side. News agencies use buzzwords like rebels, separatist, gorilla, freedom fighter etc to describe groups of people to make the population believe in a cause.
As my cousin states ( yes he is one of those military guys ), there are mercanaries fighting on both sides of this conflict, four groups who have a vested interest in this plane. What is missing is getting the bodies returned, that is job one.
If you speak Russian, you should see the crap on http://www.odnoklassniki.ru/

The saddest part of conflict is the senseless loss of life.

Odnoklassniki - I can't speak enough Russian to make it worth my while to log on. I have to use Google Translate, unless I want to spend an hour piecing together a simple paragraph.

After months of reading about the struggle, I've ended up supporting Kiev, if only because of outrage at what Russia is doing and because I believe centralization and unity is the only way Ukraine is going to survive. I also believe that the ideals of the Maidan guys are worthwhile, since the country was going to hell in a handbasket anyway and badly needed a change. So I like the US, if only because I sympathize with Kiev and Maidan.

Does the US use propaganda? Always. The buzzwords are always there.

OTOH, the Russian stuff is absolutely crazy bad. Far worse than the Western propaganda. For reasons I posted above.

 

[stay]

I agree but a lie is a lie. To summarize the words of fascism are being tossed around. To understand the Ukrainian way you have to understand that people don't pay taxes except for a pitance for gas, electricity and house. The thinking by the majority of Ukrainians, whether it be the nationalist or the average Ukrainian is the government is going to help through international handouts. How the F is a country so rich in resources and with a highly educated workforce going to go anywhere when all the can say is "America help us".
There are two side in the Ukrainian conflict being influenced by " OUTSIDE" forces to the end of more corruption. I can only imagine the dollars being poured into Ukraine right now that, for lack of a better term are going through the Reagan "trickle down" economic theory. BUT in essense it is not the skim of the top, rather pass down the dregs.

You can start to image a population so impoverished, going into an army that has no funds for training and on the other side mercenaries and local townsfolk handling military equipment, what the F is going to happen.
BTW... I'm sure you can buy even today any piece of military equipment from stock, maybe even for a bit of wadka.

That is the disaster known today as Ukraine and all Ukrainians should share the blame.

 

[mandrill]

I agree but a lie is a lie. To summarize the words of fascism are being tossed around. To understand the Ukrainian way you have to understand that people don't pay taxes except for a pitance for gas, electricity and house. The thinking by the majority of Ukrainians, whether it be the nationalist or the average Ukrainian is the government is going to help through international handouts. How the F is a country so rich in resources and with a highly educated workforce going to go anywhere when all the can say is "America help us".
There are two side in the Ukrainian conflict being influenced by " OUTSIDE" forces to the end of more corruption. I can only imagine the dollars being poured into Ukraine right now that, for lack of a better term are going through the Reagan "trickle down" economic theory. BUT in essense it is not the skim of the top, rather pass down the dregs.

You can start to image a population so impoverished, going into an army that has no funds for training and on the other side mercenaries and local townsfolk handling military equipment, what the F is going to happen.
BTW... I'm sure you can buy even today any piece of military equipment from stock, maybe even for a bit of wadka.

That is the disaster known today as Ukraine and all Ukrainians should share the blame.

IMO, that is the result of 20 years of corruption on the heels of the Svoiet system. There are Ukrainians who want to follow the Western model badly. They need some time to get back on their feet and a little help first. A happy ending is by no means guaranteed, but at least they are doing something at last.

 

[stay]

IMO, that is the result of 20 years of corruption on the heels of the Svoiet system. There are Ukrainians who want to follow the Western model badly. They need some time to get back on their feet and a little help first. A happy ending is by no means guaranteed, but at least they are doing something at last.

You can believe that if you want, I am much more pessimistic. Like I said the protesters were paid in Kiev, that takes away from the sincerity. Yes there are the fringe radicals, on both sides. People in Ukraine believe we are all rich, driving fancy cars and living lives on TV. They also believe there is no corruption here.... Just wait. They all had a place to live, nobody came to tell you if you don't pay we'll turn off your gas or kick you out.
Ya it is easy street here, for the people working 2 jobs, pay to pay, no time for friends and the people in power ( no corruption here ).

I applaud you believing in orange revolution part deux? Trois?.... F who knows.... I wouldn't be so sure that this is the time...

POWER CORRUPTS and in Ukraine that starts the day after the election.

 

[stay]

Sitting drinking tea, knock on the door "Are you for Red army or White army?" I reply "red army"... they come in take down my pants and beat me.
Sitting drinking tea, knock on the door " Are you for Red army or White army?" I reply "white army".... they come in take down my pants and beat me.
Sitting drinking tea, knock on the door... I pull down my pants and open the door.... Hi neighbour

1917 Crimean Joke, loosely translated by my wife.

 

[BlueLaser]

You can believe that if you want, I am much more pessimistic. Like I said the protesters were paid in Kiev, that takes away from the sincerity. Yes there are the fringe radicals, on both sides. People in Ukraine believe we are all rich, driving fancy cars and living lives on TV. They also believe there is no corruption here.... Just wait. They all had a place to live, nobody came to tell you if you don't pay we'll turn off your gas or kick you out.
Ya it is easy street here, for the people working 2 jobs, pay to pay, no time for friends and the people in power ( no corruption here ).

I applaud you believing in orange revolution part deux? Trois?.... F who knows.... I wouldn't be so sure that this is the time...

POWER CORRUPTS and in Ukraine that starts the day after the election.

If you look at oagre's posting history, he's got a big beef with Russians. He seems to have utter disdain for them, thinks they're all sheep who religiously follow and believe the tabloids and goes out of his way to dig up more dirt on the wacky, crazy things that any Russian might believe. Forget that he can't speak enough Russian to understand their articles, he can read articles in English, from tabloid sites that have previously "reported" things like earthquake weapons, that tell him what the Russian media is saying. Of course, if you do speak Russian, the mainstream media do indeed carry the articles that are mentioned, but by saying things like "After any disaster, there's never a shortage of speculation. In this case, stories range from the curious to the absolutely bizarre, and most stretch well into the realm of 'conspiracy theory'".

This is the problem with prejudice and getting information off the internet. Once you've labelled a society one way, you can always direct your searches to keep believe what you want to believe.

I also don't think Ukrainians are as naive as you think. Ukrainians do a fair bit of travelling. It's mostly restricted to their immediate vicinity given the lack of disposable income most have, but most also have family that have left for greener pastures. They get to see places like Turkey and Poland, places that have less resources than them and in some cases began with a worse infrastructure 40 years ago, that are now flourishing. By and large, the Ukrainian people all want the same thing: Be able to find decent work for decent pay and live a happy life. Right now, you won't find that in Ukraine. Right now, you generally won't find that in Russia either, at least not outside of a handful of major cities, and even then you need connections to deal with the corruption. The only reason there's a civil war is because of the difference of opinion on how to get there.

Western Ukraine is very liberal. Their economy is based on things like education, banking, research, technology, fashion, etc. They would integrate well into the western way of working. Western Ukraine could easily move into the lifestyle people in Poland have. It's not extravagant, but it's certainly decent and much better than what Ukraine has now. The problem is that this Western mindset would leave Eastern Ukraine behind. Eastern Ukraine is more blue collar. Factories, mining, agriculture... The major patron of it's work comes from Russia. Eastern Ukraine sees Russia as it's saviour. From the rise of the of the Soviet Union right through to the present day, it's been money from Moscow that's kept them in the boat they're in, which is much better off than the Western parts. For decades, ever since the formation of an Independent Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine has been funding the enterprises in the east. Eastern Ukraine is like Alberta, and in that same vein, they're pissed about what we call transfer payments. Why are Albertans busting their ass to give money and cheap gas to Quebec? Of course, it may not be that cut and dry in actuality, but if you live in Alberta that's largely what the experience seems like. Now Western Ukraine is looking to distance themselves from Russia and the east is thinking, "Woah! Hold on there. It's Russia that's been giving us all the money that we've been using to prop you up. Now you want to leave Russia? For what, Europe? Where was Europe 50 years ago? 20 years ago?"

The East is clinging to what they know. They have, at least for the present and immediate future, guaranteed trade and income from Russia. The West is looking to the future, well aware that Russia has been slowly shifting focus to manufacture it's own products. Russia is involved because they want to keep their cheap source of parts, hardware and agriculture from Eastern Ukraine. The West is involved because Eastern Ukraine has a vast untapped labour force that could produce these same things for them at a cheap rate.

I've said it before but it needs to be said again: the solution for Ukraine is neither East nor West. The solution is both. In the short term, it still needs ties to Russia. In the long term, it's going to need to westernize and open it's markets more to the Western world. But Russia won't let it go, and the West won't let it keep it's ties to Russia. The problem with the current narrative being told on both sides is that neither one acknowledges the benefit of the other and the various propaganda machines are preventing them from doing exactly that. A unified Ukraine, that maintains diplomatic and trade relations with Russia while expanding into Western markets, is the solution to this problem.

The corruption issue is a non-starter really. You can go anywhere in the region and every country there has the same problem. Saying they need to get rid of corruption is like telling Saudi Arabia they need rid of Sharia Law. It's absolutely true, but it's decades away from being possible. It's a cultural thing so deeply ingrained in their way of life. Next you'll be telling our politicians they can't heckle each other in the House. Good luck with that.

 

[mnztr]

Based on that picture I suspect the flight crew was killed instantly.

The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.

The photograph above, first published by the Financial Times over the weekend, shows a piece of the downed Boeing 777 about a metre square with a gaping hole in the middle, surrounded by smaller holes and apparent burn marks.

The wreckage was recovered by the people of Petropavlovka from a villager’s back yard last Thursday and moved to the roadside because it was believed to be important.

Two defence analysts in London and a former military pilot who have studied the picture corroborated the claim by a local man, who said he had served in the military, that much of the damage was consistent with a missile strike.

Over the weekend, western intelligence agencies pointed to mounting evidence that backs Ukraine’s claim that the aircraft with 298 people on board was shot down by mistake by pro-Russian separatists and Russian military personnel with an SA-11 missile launched from a Buk-M1 SAM battery.

Justin Bronk, an analyst at the Royal United Services Institute in London, said: “The size of the shrapnel holes is consistent with what one might expect to see from an SA-11 hit. However, it is difficult to assess the total blast pattern with such a small fragment of fuselage.”

Another analyst, Douglas Barrie of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said the photographic evidence “was consistent with the kind of damage you would expect to see from the detonation of a high explosive fragmentation warhead of the type commonly used in a SAM system”.

Both analysts cautioned, however, that further work would be needed to ascertain exactly what had happened, including chemical testing for explosive residue.

One former senior Royal Air Force officer who was shown the picture said he had seen similar damage on aircraft that had been hit by flying shrapnel from rocket attacks on airbases.

All three experts agreed that the large hole in the middle of the fragment was likely to have been punched from the inside out as the aircraft rapidly depressurised when it was hit at a height of 33,000ft last Thursday afternoon.

All three confirmed the part of the aircraft in the photograph was the port side of the Boeing 777’s cockpit. The former RAF officer, who flew fast jets, said that based on the evidence it would appear that the missile exploded in front and to the left of the aircraft.

Anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to score a direct hit as they are targeted to destroy fast, agile fighter jets. Instead, they are designed to explode within about 20m of their target, sending out a cloud of red hot metal to increase the chances of inflicting as much damage as possible.

The former RAF pilot said an explosion in front of the aircraft would be consistent with the interception course a SAM would be expected to follow. “The last thing a ground-launched missile wants to do is play catch-up with an aircraft, it would look to get ahead of its target,” he said. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388laoF6B

Link contains photo of a damaged piece of the Malaysian airline plane, as recovered.

 

[stay]

If you look at oagre's posting history, he's got a big beef with Russians. He seems to have utter disdain for them, thinks they're all sheep who religiously follow and believe the tabloids and goes out of his way to dig up more dirt on the wacky, crazy things that any Russian might believe. Forget that he can't speak enough Russian to understand their articles, he can read articles in English, from tabloid sites that have previously "reported" things like earthquake weapons, that tell him what the Russian media is saying. Of course, if you do speak Russian, the mainstream media do indeed carry the articles that are mentioned, but by saying things like "After any disaster, there's never a shortage of speculation. In this case, stories range from the curious to the absolutely bizarre, and most stretch well into the realm of 'conspiracy theory'".

This is the problem with prejudice and getting information off the internet. Once you've labelled a society one way, you can always direct your searches to keep believe what you want to believe.

I also don't think Ukrainians are as naive as you think. Ukrainians do a fair bit of travelling. It's mostly restricted to their immediate vicinity given the lack of disposable income most have, but most also have family that have left for greener pastures. They get to see places like Turkey and Poland, places that have less resources than them and in some cases began with a worse infrastructure 40 years ago, that are now flourishing. By and large, the Ukrainian people all want the same thing: Be able to find decent work for decent pay and live a happy life. Right now, you won't find that in Ukraine. Right now, you generally won't find that in Russia either, at least not outside of a handful of major cities, and even then you need connections to deal with the corruption. The only reason there's a civil war is because of the difference of opinion on how to get there.

Western Ukraine is very liberal. Their economy is based on things like education, banking, research, technology, fashion, etc. They would integrate well into the western way of working. Western Ukraine could easily move into the lifestyle people in Poland have. It's not extravagant, but it's certainly decent and much better than what Ukraine has now. The problem is that this Western mindset would leave Eastern Ukraine behind. Eastern Ukraine is more blue collar. Factories, mining, agriculture... The major patron of it's work comes from Russia. Eastern Ukraine sees Russia as it's saviour. From the rise of the of the Soviet Union right through to the present day, it's been money from Moscow that's kept them in the boat they're in, which is much better off than the Western parts. For decades, ever since the formation of an Independent Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine has been funding the enterprises in the east. Eastern Ukraine is like Alberta, and in that same vein, they're pissed about what we call transfer payments. Why are Albertans busting their ass to give money and cheap gas to Quebec? Of course, it may not be that cut and dry in actuality, but if you live in Alberta that's largely what the experience seems like. Now Western Ukraine is looking to distance themselves from Russia and the east is thinking, "Woah! Hold on there. It's Russia that's been giving us all the money that we've been using to prop you up. Now you want to leave Russia? For what, Europe? Where was Europe 50 years ago? 20 years ago?"

The East is clinging to what they know. They have, at least for the present and immediate future, guaranteed trade and income from Russia. The West is looking to the future, well aware that Russia has been slowly shifting focus to manufacture it's own products. Russia is involved because they want to keep their cheap source of parts, hardware and agriculture from Eastern Ukraine. The West is involved because Eastern Ukraine has a vast untapped labour force that could produce these same things for them at a cheap rate.

I've said it before but it needs to be said again: the solution for Ukraine is neither East nor West. The solution is both. In the short term, it still needs ties to Russia. In the long term, it's going to need to westernize and open it's markets more to the Western world. But Russia won't let it go, and the West won't let it keep it's ties to Russia. The problem with the current narrative being told on both sides is that neither one acknowledges the benefit of the other and the various propaganda machines are preventing them from doing exactly that. A unified Ukraine, that maintains diplomatic and trade relations with Russia while expanding into Western markets, is the solution to this problem.

The corruption issue is a non-starter really. You can go anywhere in the region and every country there has the same problem. Saying they need to get rid of corruption is like telling Saudi Arabia they need rid of Sharia Law. It's absolutely true, but it's decades away from being possible. It's a cultural thing so deeply ingrained in their way of life. Next you'll be telling our politicians they can't heckle each other in the House. Good luck with that.

OK first paragraph and last... coles notes.. LOL

Yes, this is Ukraine and in the middle, people suffer and die while games are played. BUT we all know that when an outside force involves themselves, it almost is never for the benefit of the native people.

 

[BlueLaser]

OK first paragraph and last... coles notes.. LOL

Yes, this is Ukraine and in the middle, people suffer and die while games are played. BUT we all know that when an outside force involves themselves, it almost is never for the benefit of the native people.

Well, sorry to hear that. I didn't even think it was that long.

 

[stay]

I have a short attention span when it comes to reading, surprisingly I remember every word that people say to me when I want. Can't remember a damn thing about a naked girl.... did I waste a lot of money for in the moment pleasure, only to forget by the time I went out the door.... F yeah

Of course my wife remembers E V E R Y... F' I N ... T H I N G.

 

[mandrill]

Russia Today, the Kremlin-backed news channel, has attacked the “impartiality and factuality of the mainstream media” after learning it could itself be investigated for breaking broadcasting regulations on accuracy and impartiality during its coverage of the MH17 air crash.

Ofcom, which ensures TV channels with a UK broadcasting licence provide broadly impartial news coverage, said it was considering whether to investigate Russia Today following complaints from viewers about the tone of its coverage of the Malaysia Airlines disaster.

Last week presenter Sara Firth resigned from the channel, accusing it of covering the story with “total disregard to the facts”.

But the channel has hit back against its detractors and the potential Ofcom investigation, telling BuzzFeed it is one of the few news outlets that is willing to stand up to the “party line” on what actually happened to the flight when it crashed in eastern Ukraine.

“While we would love to provide the details of our communication with Ofcom and the facts and arguments that RT had presented to the regulator in support of our position, we cannot do so as it would violate the regulator’s rules,” said Anna Belkina, head of communications at Russia Today.

“It is sad that the news media of the US and the UK, which has always prided itself on its commitment to asking hard questions of its own government when it comes to domestic politics, in this particular situation is readily swallowing up the ‘party line’ of the Department of State and the Foreign Office, demanding no proof of their claims.”

“Why was the world so quick to blame Russia? Because that’s what the president of the United States, the US Department of State, and their allies were doing. Did they have any proof? None that they have presented, beyond references to social media chatter.”

“Do we have the results of the investigation? It had barely begun. What happened to impartiality and factuality of the mainstream media? Apparently it is MIA.”

Russia Today has previously been found to have breached Ofcom’s code on multiple occasions, including a breach of section 5.1, which demands that “news, in whatever form, must be reported with due accuracy and presented with due impartiality”.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/russia-today-faces-uk-investigation-over-mh17-news-coverage

Russian mainstream broadcaster RT again in trouble for breach of broadcast codes as to impartiality, this time due to biased reporting on MH17.

 

[whitewaterguy]

Ukrainian army claims this dude is the deputy defence minister of the Russian puppet state of South Ossetia, captured by them while apparently running around near Lugansk in his underwear on an official state visit to the People's Republic of Lugansk.

I would at least have worn a shirt.

Kinda looks like he fell off the back of a turnip truck. And he's one of the "smart ones" in charge. Lol. Russkies lol

 

[eznutz]

US: No evidence of direct Russian link to plane

Senior U.S. intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia "created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Based on that picture I suspect the flight crew was killed instantly.

Ingenious weapon of war (to get ahead of the target and not try to play catch up, as well as explode near with a cloud of shrapnel as opposed to scoring a direct hit).

Sad it was used in this case.

 

[mandrill]

Donetsk and Kiev soccer fans (playing in L'viv for safety reasons) parading with a tongue-in-cheek "Long Live the Nazis" banner, referring to Russian media's reference to Maidan as a Nazi movement and chanting "Putin the Dickhead!". Worth a laugh for the sheer noisy chaos.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=669036406499509

 

[AK-47]

Putin is as popular as ever in Russia. Something like an 80% approval rating

 

[stay]

Donetsk and Kiev soccer fans (playing in L'viv for safety reasons) parading with a tongue-in-cheek "Long Live the Nazis" banner, referring to Russian media's reference to Maidan as a Nazi movement and chanting "Putin the Dickhead!". Worth a laugh for the sheer noisy chaos.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=669036406499509

I thought the Ukrainian signs said down with any Ukrainian who can't speak Ukrainian without an accent. They would have written signs like that 10 years ago.... It isn't funny, it is the way they are

Racist, even with their own countrymen.
That is the shit that you read about on the Russian Facebook, it is disturbing and it backs my theory that there is little hope for Ukraine.

 

[mandrill]

I thought the Ukrainian signs said down with any Ukrainian who can't speak Ukrainian without an accent. They would have written signs like that 10 years ago.... It isn't funny, it is the way they are

Racist, even with their own countrymen.
That is the shit that you read about on the Russian Facebook, it is disturbing and it backs my theory that there is little hope for Ukraine.

I didn't see those signs. I just saw the big sign I described. Care to enlighten me?