Apartheid analogy common among Israel's left

[danmand]

Apartheid analogy common among Israel's left

Kerry's comments about Israel's risk of becoming an apartheid state merely echo sentiment common among country's left.
Dalia Hatuqa and Gregg Carlstrom Last updated: 29 Apr 2014 15:49

Ramallah, West Bank - Israel is already an apartheid state, Palestinian officials have said in response to private comments made by the US Secretary of State John Kerry, who warned that failed negotiations would leave Israel like the old South Africa.

"Kerry is giving a descriptive statement about Israel contributing to its own isolation and de-legitimisation by its ongoing settlement activities, and its refusal to accept the two-state solution," said Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation’s executive committee. The PLO is in charge of negotiations with Israel.

On Friday, Kerry warned in private discussions with foreign leaders at the Trilateral Commission that Israel risks of turning into "an apartheid state," or else losing its Jewish identity, if a peace deal is not inked with the Palestinians in the near future.

Israel's push against a two-state solution and an independent Palestinian state could spell the end of the country's Jewish character. This leaves a single, civil "one-man, one-vote" state as the next option, if Israel wants to avoid turning into an apartheid regime.

"Once you put that frame in your mind, that reality, which is the bottom line, you understand how imperative it is to get to the two state solution, which both leaders, even (Thursday), said they remain deeply committed to," Kerry reportedly said, according to the US-based Daily Beast, which obtained the recording of the private conversation.

Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, declined to comment on Kerry’s remarks, as did the foreign ministry. Kerry's remarks also went unmentioned by members of the Knesset.

But the apartheid analogy is already a common one among centre-left politicians here. In 2010, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak warned that "as long as between the Jordan and the sea, there is only one political entity, named Israel, it will end up being either non-Jewish or non-democratic… If the Palestinians vote in elections, it is a binational state, and if they don't, it is an apartheid state."

Ehud Olmert did not use the word "apartheid," but alluded to it in an interview with Ha’aretz in 2007, when he was prime minister.

And Tzipi Livni, the current justice minister, warned last year that Israel faced a possible future as an "apartheid state".

Defending Kerry

Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for the US State Department, used these Israeli officials' remarks to defend Kerry. "Secretary Kerry, like Justice Minister Livni, and previous Israeli Prime Ministers Olmert and Barak, was reiterating why there's no such thing as a one-state solution if you believe, as he does, in the principle of a Jewish state," she said.










Israel suspends peace talks with Palestinians


Kerry had previously called on Israel to heed warnings of a growing boycott threat if peace talks with the Palestinians fail. "You see for Israel there's an increasing delegitimisation campaign that has been building up," Kerry said back in February. "Today's status quo absolutely, to a certainty...cannot be maintained. It's not sustainable...There's a momentary prosperity, there's a momentary peace."

Some have argued that an apartheid system is already in place because Israel rules over all the Palestinians and the Israelis between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea.

The PLO's Ashrawi believes Kerry's comments reflect increasing US disappointment with Israel’s intransigence throughout the peace deliberations. "Kerry is expressing a sense of frustration with the fact that now Israel has walked out of the talks and refused to comply with the terms of reference and to stop settlement activity," she said. "14,000 settlement units have been built since the beginning of the talks."

 

[blackrock13]

Another anti US thread from DM, colour me surprised, not.

DM's GoTo site #3, Al Jazeera.

Not quite sure what the message is here DM. Are they calling Kerry a leftist, Socialist, Israeli,

Perhaps you could climb down from your perch and summarize it.

 

[canada-man]

In Israel Sharia law for family and marriage issues are there for the muslims. Arabs have political parties and sit as mps in Parliament. Israel currently have an Ethiopian woman as Miss Israel. Israel is the only country in the region where blacks can get citizenship. in the rest of the Arab world they are treated like slaves.

 

[fuji]

The PLO is clearly an unbiased source.

Meanwhile the PLO itself prevents Palestinians living in refugee camps from acquiring normalized status in the country of their birth (including Palestine) prevents then from accessing the same health care or education as other people, denies them access to jobs, and forces them to stay in the camps which actually IS apartheid.

 

[danmand]

In Israel Sharia law for family and marriage issues are there for the muslims. Arabs have political parties and sit as mps in Parliament. Israel currently have an Ethiopian woman as Miss Israel. Israel is the only country in the region where blacks can get citizenship. in the rest of the Arab world they are treated like slaves.

Read the article. Kerry and "the israeli left" are saying that IF the two state solution is abandoned, Israel will EITHER become a non jewish state OR become an apartheid state

 

[blackrock13]

Read the article. Kerry and "the israeli left" are saying that IF the two state solution is abandoned, Israel will EITHER become a non jewish state OR become an apartheid state

Which particular leftist party? There are something like 30 political parties in the Israeli landscape.

 

[fuji]

Read the article. Kerry and "the israeli left" are saying that IF the two state solution is abandoned, Israel will EITHER become a non jewish state OR become an apartheid state

Which is not correct. That is a false dichotomy. There are several different possible future situations, not only two. For some examples:

1. The present situation, which Kerry has pointed out is not apartheid, could continue indefinitely.

2. Israel could complete a withdrawl from the non-settlement areas of the WB and Gaza, and turn over administration of the rest to the UN/UNRWA

3. Israel could turn over administration of the remaining elements of Palestine to Jordan or Egypt, who aren't presently interested, but maybe could be persuaded in the long run

There are lots of other possibilities. It's completely spurious to say that the only possible outcome of a failure of the PRESENT peace talks is either an apartheid state or a non-Jewish state. That's just ridiculous nonsense.

 

[nottyboi]

The PLO is clearly an unbiased source.

Meanwhile the PLO itself prevents Palestinians living in refugee camps from acquiring normalized status in the country of their birth (including Palestine) prevents then from accessing the same health care or education as other people, denies them access to jobs, and forces them to stay in the camps which actually IS apartheid.

And by what magic do they do accomplish all this?

 

[nottyboi]

Which is not correct. That is a false dichotomy. There are several different possible future situations, not only two. For some examples:

1. The present situation, which Kerry has pointed out is not apartheid, could continue indefinitely.

2. Israel could complete a withdrawl from the non-settlement areas of the WB and Gaza, and turn over administration of the rest to the UN/UNRWA

3. Israel could turn over administration of the remaining elements of Palestine to Jordan or Egypt, who aren't presently interested, but maybe could be persuaded in the long run

There are lots of other possibilities. It's completely spurious to say that the only possible outcome of a failure of the PRESENT peace talks is either an apartheid state or a non-Jewish state. That's just ridiculous nonsense.

Hmm would I believe the US Secretary of state who has a long record of supporting Israel....or some nutjob on a hooker board. Close call but I think I will go with Kerrys opinion....

personally, I think a one state solution with Israel becoming a completely secular state is the absolute best solution for the long term security of jews living there.

 

[basketcase]

Read the article. Kerry and "the israeli left" are saying that IF the two state solution is abandoned, Israel will EITHER become a non jewish state OR become an apartheid state

Groggy will be upset with you if you continue to suggest that Israel isn't currently an apartheid state.

 

[basketcase]

...
personally, I think a one state solution with Israel becoming a completely secular state is the absolute best solution for the long term security of jews living there.

Yet Israelis and Palestinians are overwhelmingly opposed to it (and based on minority rights in other Muslim countries I doubt many Israeli Jews will believe you)

 

[danmand]

Groggy will be upset with you if you continue to suggest that Israel isn't currently an apartheid state.

I am only clarifying what the articles says.

 

[fuji]

Hmm would I believe the US Secretary of state who has a long record of supporting Israel....or some nutjob on a hooker board. Close call but I think I will go with Kerrys opinion....

personally, I think a one state solution with Israel becoming a completely secular state is the absolute best solution for the long term security of jews living there.

Considering that I listed logical possibilities that prove his statement wrong, assuming you haven't misunderstand his statement, it isn't a matter of belief.

 

[fuji]

And by what magic do they do accomplish all this?

Government policy in Syria, Lebanon, and the PA. Jordan told the PLO to get stuffed and gave Palestinians there status.

 

[Gyaos]

I am only clarifying what the articles says.

Really? Then use this article which is more accurate:

John Kerry’s recent use of the term "Apartheid" in reference to Israel’s future was an anti-Semitic act.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Our-World-John-Kerrys-Jewish-best-friends-350734

"The Palestinians demand that the territory that would comprise their state must be ethnically cleansed
of all Jewish presence before they will agree to accept sovereign responsibility for it."

If there is anything more obscene to peace, it's John Kerry, and the quasi-racist, Barack Obama (and his wife).

Gyaos.

 

[nottyboi]

Considering that I listed logical possibilities that prove his statement wrong, assuming you haven't misunderstand his statement, it isn't a matter of belief.

Those are not very logical. There are a million possibilities. Who knows what will happen next, all I know is that it is unlikely to be positive.

 

[groggy]

There are lots of other possibilities.

Sure, all parties could also agree to wear blindfolds and never talk about religion again.
Or they could all convert to Buddhism and end all hostility.

Lots of stupid possibilities.....
But to get back on topic, here's a list of Israeli politicians who have given the exact same warning Kerry did.

2007 — then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert: “If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights (also for the Palestinians in the territories), then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished.”

2010 — then-Israeli Defense Minister and Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak: “The simple truth is, if there is one state” including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, “it will have to be either binational or undemocratic. … if this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.”

2013 — Israeli Justice Minister and Lead Peace Negotiator Tzipi Livni: “But the time has come for the same youth to ask, to what kind of state do they want to leave the gas reserves? To a Jewish democratic Israel? Or to a binational Arab state? Or to an apartheid state? It is impossible to deal with economic issues and to ignore the important diplomatic issues related to two states for two peoples.”

Peace talks are officially dead now, the Oslo days gone.
Looks like the status quo means Apartheid.

Congrats, nicely done Fuji.

 

[fuji]

Those are not very logical. There are a million possibilities. Who knows what will happen next, all I know is that it is unlikely to be positive.

It is not logical to think the current situation can simply persist? While you can certainly debate about it, there is an undeniable probability that it will.

That example alone blows the false dichotomy out of the water.

Jordan and Egypt both did administer the territories within the last fifty years. While they aren't openly expressing an interest in doing it again, the fact that they spent lives to capture and annex that exact land in the past makes it impossible to rule out in, say, another fifty years.

That real possibility also by itself serves as a counter example against the false dichotomy.

Finally, UNRWA is already performing many of the duties of a state, from the provision of health and education, to the administration of an identity card system. There are only a few more responsibilities it would have to pick up to displace the PA as an effective government. How is that not a possibility?

Remember that this is a long run outlook, over the twenty or fifty year period we are discussing a lot of attitudes can change.

To assert that the only possibilities are a one state or two state solution is shockingly wrong.

 

[groggy]

It is not logical to think the current situation can simply persist?

So now you are arguing for a continuation of the Apartheid state, as defined by the US and Israeli politicians?

 

[fuji]

So now you are arguing for a continuation of the Apartheid state, as defined by the US and Israeli politicians?

Kerry has stated it is not an state currently so the current situation persisting is not apartheid.