Hamas and Fatah declare unity government

groggy

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Theoretically a good step. The proposed elections are 6 years overdue.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-and-fatah-agree-to-form-unity-government-in-historic-deal/

Of course since Hamas is 100% opposed to peace with Israel, it looks like Abbas is turning his back on the possibility of a peace and the chance of a Palestinian state.
The peace talks were already dead.


I wonder if they will end Palestinian government in Israel and revert to keeping the PLO as a representative body only?
 

basketcase

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The peace talks were already dead.


I wonder if they will end Palestinian government in Israel and revert to keeping the PLO as a representative body only?
Oh boo hoo. The PA didn't get all their demands met so instead of actually negotiating they join up with a group dedicated to killing civilians and destruction. Nice.

And as I posted before Abbas won't give up his cash cow of corruption.
 

nottyboi

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The Palis finally realized they were being gamed. Look for Hamas to announce it is willing to moderate and recognize Isreal in the context of a peace agreement.
 

basketcase

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The Palis finally realized they were being gamed. Look for Hamas to announce it is willing to moderate and recognize Isreal in the context of a peace agreement.
Hopefully I will be surprised and Hamas engages in peace talks. If Hamas joins peace talks I will start a thread praising them.
 

fuji

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The Palis finally realized they were being gamed. Look for Hamas to announce it is willing to moderate and recognize Isreal in the context of a peace agreement.
No, more accurately, they gamed themselves into a corner. Everybody focuses on Gaza and the West Bank because those are the meaningful issues in a purely strategic sense, but for Abbas, there is a bigger problem, one that the PLO itself created, that prevents him from signing any reasonable peace deal.

The issue is all the Palestinians that the PLO has locked in concentration camps for the last 60 years, aka "refugees" in "refugee camps". Refugee camps that the PLO has forcibly prevented them from leaving. Israel tried to settle them at one point, building houses and whatnot--the PLO grieved it to the UN, and Israel stopped. Ditto in Lebanon and Syria. Only in Jordan, after the PLO was forcibly evicted, have Palestinian "refugees" got something like a normal life, allowed to work in ordinary jobs, participate in society, etc.

It doesn't get much play in the West but the PLO has been repeating a mantra to the people in those camps all this time: the refugees aren't leaving the camps until they "return" to Israel. This is no small thing -- those "refugees" have suffered incredible hardship because of the PLO's refusal to let them integrate. They COULD have all been leading normal, productive lives by now, with jobs, kids in schools, all the stuff other people in Syria, Lebanon, and even the West Bank can do. But they haven't been able to, because the PLO has prevented them from leaving the camps via force, legal writ, and propaganda. All this time they have been told -- and probably believe, as the only way to make their really shittly lives make sense -- that they making this incredible multi-generational sacrifice for the benefit of the Palestinian nation, so that Israel can be destroyed. The PLO has insisted on this. All the way through the peace talks.

So here's the thing for Abbas: The PLO have painted themselves into a corner over this issue. Everybody knows the refugees are never going to go to Israel, except perhaps some small token number. But the PLO has lied to them, Abbas has lied to them, and refused to let them out of the camp.

The PLO's idea was to keep pressure on Israel by creating a refugee problem -- a problem created by the PLO itself, but blamed on Israel.

If Abbas were to agree to any peace deal whatsoever, anything that recognized that Israel was going to continue to exist without being annihilated by Palestinians, in particular, without being flooded with millions of Palestinian "refugees", those people will kill him. I am not joking -- they will kill him. They won't just kick him out of office, they will burn down his office, and put his head on a spike. Or blow him up with a suicide bomb. Something they know how to do.

So the PLO has been talking out of both sides of its mouth, telling the peace negotiators that they are willing to make a reasonable deal, but telling the refugees that they will never make a reasonable deal.

What has to happen is this -- the PLO needs to be excluded from the peace process. Somebody else needs to step up. Either elections can be held, or perhaps Israel can shift to negotiate with Hamas, or some other group, if Hamas ever come around to the idea of not destroying Israel. Somebody who HASN'T been lying to the refugees, who CAN go make a reasonable deal, and then go to the camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, as well as WB/Gaza and tell those people the truth -- hey look this is the best we can do, your life sucked for nothing, but please come to Palestine, we'll try and help you get some compensation and we'll try and settle you in a home.

Abbas can't say that. But somebody has to.
 

fuji

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Hopefully I will be surprised and Hamas engages in peace talks. If Hamas joins peace talks I will start a thread praising them.
One day they will. I don't know if it will be during our lifetimes. But one day Hamas will moderate, and start talking peace, just the way the IRA eventually moderated, and talked peace. It might do so through a face saving "political wing" the way the IRA leveraged Sein Feinn so that it technically never had to go back on its word. But the people involved will one day find a way to make peace, and eventually choose to pursue their interests through politics by ordinary means. War, in the long run strategic picture, is a stupid senseless thing and sooner or later the Hamas leadership will figure that out. The radicals will splinter off again into other organizations, like the "Provisional IRA", "Real IRA", etc., but some main line will make a deal.

It's inevitable that there will be peace, the only question is how many people have to die before the deal is made, and whether it can be done within five years, or whether it will take fifty.
 

groggy

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The issue is all the Palestinians that the PLO has locked in concentration camps for the last 60 years, aka "refugees" in "refugee camps"..
So now you accuse the UN or running 'concentration' camps?
Yet you refuse to acknowledge that the UN and international law shows that it is Israel that has put those refugees in 'concentration' camps, as you call them.
It is only Israel's refusal to offer return or acceptable restitution that keeps them there.

I'm surprised that you are now supporting the use of what you call 'concentration' camps.
You would think that you would understand the history of those camps and want such horrors and injustices ended justly, as the UN has called for.
Shame on you.
 

fuji

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So now you accuse the UN or running 'concentration' camps?
No, I accused the PLO. Why do you lie all the time? Lying about what I wrote is just PATHETIC.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that the UN and international law shows that it is Israel that has put those refugees in 'concentration' camps, as you call them.
Neither the UN nor international law says that. In fact, Israel tried to build homes for some of them so they could have normal lives and the PLO objected.

It is only Israel's refusal to offer return or acceptable restitution that keeps them there.
I don't know why you use the word return, the majority of them have never been to Israel.

Israel did offer compensation for the property their ancestors lost, in the offer Olmert made.

I'm surprised that you are now supporting the use of what you call 'concentration' camps.
Lebanon, Syria, and the PLO subject those people to apartheid conditions. They are prevented from getting citizenship status in the country of their birth, denied access to jobs, forced to use different schools, different medical facilities. It is outright apartheid but you never mention it because it is Arabs doing it.

You don't give a fuck about the well being of Palestinians, you only want to use their suffering to incite hated of Israel.

The treatment of Palestinians by Syria and Jordan shines a massive spotlight on your malevolent hypocrisy.
 

groggy

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No, I accused the PLO. Why do you lie all the time? Lying about what I wrote is just PATHETIC.
The PLO doesn't run those camps, the UNRWA does.
http://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are




They are prevented from getting citizenship status in the country of their birth, denied access to jobs, forced to use different schools, different medical facilities. It is outright apartheid but you never mention it because it is Arabs doing it.
No, it is Israel doing it, since they are refusing to honour their legal right of return and have been doing so for half a century.
You are accusing Israel of causing apartheid situations.

If only Israel honoured UN resolutions.
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
As the UN said 53 years ago:
In particular, the Government of Israel is not prepared to implement the part of paragraph 11 of the General Assembly resolution of 11 December 1948 which resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/61201E86BC8189F485256102005A8EAB
 

fuji

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The PLO doesn't run those camps, the UNRWA does.
It is the PLO that prevents people from leaving the camps. It was the PLO that objected to Israel providing them housing and settling them.

UNRWA also provides services to refugees in Jordan, where they were allowed to settle and gain local citizenship. UNRWA is not the problem.

The PLO, Lebanon, and Syria are the ones who forbid and prevent settling the Palestinians.
 

fuji

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Groggy: "Yet you refuse to acknowledge that the UN and international law shows that it is Israel that has put those refugees in 'concentration' camps, as you call them."

Fuji: "Neither the UN nor international law says that. In fact, Israel tried to build homes for some of them so they could have normal lives and the PLO objected."

Groggy: "As the UN said 53 years ago: ..."

Which DOES NOT say that Israel or them there. Again with the lies and misrepresentation. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Do you think you pathological lying is somehow helping your cause?

You claimed that "the UN" and "international law" said Israel put them in those camps. That is a blatant lie, and quoting randomly from UN resolutions that don't even say how they got there is NOT supporting your lie.

Quit lying.
 

nottyboi

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No, more accurately, they gamed themselves into a corner. Everybody focuses on Gaza and the West Bank because those are the meaningful issues in a purely strategic sense, but for Abbas, there is a bigger problem, one that the PLO itself created, that prevents him from signing any reasonable peace deal.

The issue is all the Palestinians that the PLO has locked in concentration camps for the last 60 years, aka "refugees" in "refugee camps". Refugee camps that the PLO has forcibly prevented them from leaving. Israel tried to settle them at one point, building houses and whatnot--the PLO grieved it to the UN, and Israel stopped. Ditto in Lebanon and Syria. Only in Jordan, after the PLO was forcibly evicted, have Palestinian "refugees" got something like a normal life, allowed to work in ordinary jobs, participate in society, etc.

It doesn't get much play in the West but the PLO has been repeating a mantra to the people in those camps all this time: the refugees aren't leaving the camps until they "return" to Israel. This is no small thing -- those "refugees" have suffered incredible hardship because of the PLO's refusal to let them integrate. They COULD have all been leading normal, productive lives by now, with jobs, kids in schools, all the stuff other people in Syria, Lebanon, and even the West Bank can do. But they haven't been able to, because the PLO has prevented them from leaving the camps via force, legal writ, and propaganda. All this time they have been told -- and probably believe, as the only way to make their really shittly lives make sense -- that they making this incredible multi-generational sacrifice for the benefit of the Palestinian nation, so that Israel can be destroyed. The PLO has insisted on this. All the way through the peace talks.

So here's the thing for Abbas: The PLO have painted themselves into a corner over this issue. Everybody knows the refugees are never going to go to Israel, except perhaps some small token number. But the PLO has lied to them, Abbas has lied to them, and refused to let them out of the camp.

The PLO's idea was to keep pressure on Israel by creating a refugee problem -- a problem created by the PLO itself, but blamed on Israel.

If Abbas were to agree to any peace deal whatsoever, anything that recognized that Israel was going to continue to exist without being annihilated by Palestinians, in particular, without being flooded with millions of Palestinian "refugees", those people will kill him. I am not joking -- they will kill him. They won't just kick him out of office, they will burn down his office, and put his head on a spike. Or blow him up with a suicide bomb. Something they know how to do.

So the PLO has been talking out of both sides of its mouth, telling the peace negotiators that they are willing to make a reasonable deal, but telling the refugees that they will never make a reasonable deal.

What has to happen is this -- the PLO needs to be excluded from the peace process. Somebody else needs to step up. Either elections can be held, or perhaps Israel can shift to negotiate with Hamas, or some other group, if Hamas ever come around to the idea of not destroying Israel. Somebody who HASN'T been lying to the refugees, who CAN go make a reasonable deal, and then go to the camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, as well as WB/Gaza and tell those people the truth -- hey look this is the best we can do, your life sucked for nothing, but please come to Palestine, we'll try and help you get some compensation and we'll try and settle you in a home.

Abbas can't say that. But somebody has to.
not heard of this, and I am very surprised it gets no press, so I would like to see some sort of proof this actually happened. As for right of return.. why not? After all, Jews returned to Israel after how many centuries 19 or so?
 

fuji

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not heard of this, and I am very surprised it gets no press, so I would like to see some sort of proof this actually happened. As for right of return.. why not? After all, Jews returned to Israel after how many centuries 19 or so?
Here they are protesting and burning images of Abbas for the mere suggestion that he might give up on returning to his home town:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/04/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

Imagine what they would do if he signed a deal saying that. And he is one of the 30000 or so who actually lived in Israel and would have a right under a peace deal, unlike the other 5,000,000 who claim to be refugees but have never lived in Israel and have no plausible right of return.

Here is the resolution where the UN, after prodding from the PLO, ordered Israel to stop providing homes for Palestinian refugees (scroll to the last page, very end):

http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/34/52&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION

Of course all you have to do is reflect on why there are refugees camps in Gaza and the West Bank AT ALL, when that is Palestinian controlled territory. It ain't Israel keeping them from leaving those camps to live like others do.
 

groggy

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Here they are protesting and burning images of Abbas for the mere suggestion that he might give up on returning to his home town:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/04/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

Imagine what they would do if he signed a deal saying that. And he is one of the 30000 or so who actually lived in Israel and would have a right under a peace deal, unlike the other 5,000,000 who claim to be refugees but have never lived in Israel and have no plausible right of return.

Here is the resolution where the UN, after prodding from the PLO, ordered Israel to stop providing homes for Palestinian refugees (scroll to the last page, very end):

http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/34/52&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION

Of course all you have to do is reflect on why there are refugees camps in Gaza and the West Bank AT ALL, when that is Palestinian controlled territory. It ain't Israel keeping them from leaving those camps to live like others do.
You mean where it calls repeatedly for Israel to honour UN resolution 194 and repatriate the refugees?
 

fuji

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You mean where it calls repeatedly for Israel to honour UN resolution 194 and repatriate the refugees?
Trying to change the topic? You cannot discuss why there are refugee camps in Gaza, in areas under Palestinian control, can you? You have to run like crazy away from why the PLO cannot allow those people to be provided with homes. Why they are not allowed to integrate with the rest of the Palestinian community, get jobs, live normal lives, and in particular WHO actually stops them from leaving the camps (hint: not Israel).

This topic scares the stuffing out of you because you know what it means.

But yeah on your a CHANGE OF TOPIC, it says the original refugees should return home if they are willing to live at peace. Have they signed a peace deal?
 

groggy

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Trying to change the topic? ...

But yeah on your a CHANGE OF TOPIC, it says the original refugees should return home if they are willing to live at peace. Have they signed a peace deal?
No, I clicked on the link and that's what I read.
That's a good half a century that Israel has been refusing to respect the wishes of the world and honour UN resolutions.
 

fuji

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Trying to change the topic? You cannot discuss why there are refugee camps in Gaza, in areas under Palestinian control, can you? You have to run like crazy away from why the PLO cannot allow those people to be provided with homes. Why they are not allowed to integrate with the rest of the Palestinian community, get jobs, live normal lives, and in particular WHO actually stops them from leaving the camps (hint: not Israel).

This topic scares the stuffing out of you because you know what it means.

But yeah on your a CHANGE OF TOPIC, it says the original refugees should return home if they are willing to live at peace. Have they signed a peace deal?
Respond to the part in red, groggy.
 

groggy

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Respond to the part in red, groggy.
They live in refugee camps because they've been ethnically cleansed from their homes and have the legal right or return.
Building permanent homes would end their status as refugees and their claims to return to their homeland.

Its Israel that has refused to honour Palestinians right of return for half a century now.
 

fuji

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Building permanent homes would end their status as refugees and their claims to return to their homeland.
No it wouldn't. Whatever rights they do or don't have are not dependent on where they currently live. UNRWA would continue to register them and provide services no matter where they lived.

Only about one in six UNRWA registered refugees in Jordan still live in a camp, the rest have moved into normal homes and integrated with Jordanian society. There is still a lot of discrimination against Palestinians in Jordan but at least they have normalized status.

Why is the PLO keeping Palestinians in Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority from settling?

Why was Israel prevented from providing them with better homes and land in Gaza?
 
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