We Are Not Criminals

[MattRoxx]

Waaa! Waaa! What a bunch of whiny internet chickenhawks.
If the legislation is based on Nordic laws, guess what? You guys will have to stop hiding behind the skirts of the SPs and Bedford and Maggies, because it will be YOU who are breaking the law. Yes, it will be the clients who are arrested, and who will have to launch the appeals.

And since you obviously have plenty of spare time as evidenced by the non-stop posts in this forum, how about using that time to do more than complain?

Brothers!!! We need to use our numbers, and get other hobbyists onboard so that instead of a bunch of individuals writing to their MPs and filling out gov't surveys we have some collective strength! We can't just really on prostitutes, WE have to mobilize too. We have to let TPTB know that there are a lot of us, and we are not doing anything wrong! We can't sit back and hope that Terri-Jean Bedford, Amy Lebovitch and Valerie Scott stick up for our right to BLS services!!
I've even come up with a collective name for our lobby group, and an introductory charter.

We are:
Your neighbours, friends, family members Businessmen, professionals, labourers Doctors, lawyers, teachers, taxi drivers. Mall employees, bartenders, salesmen, tradesmen.
We are not doing anything wrong. We don’t traffic women. We stay away from underage girls, from obvious drug users and alcohol abusers. We see women who consent to the activities, and we pay them what they ask for the pleasure of their company.
We are men who enjoy sex without emotional commitment. Without heartbreak and without future expectations. We are men who like to indulge in safe sex with willing partners and no strings attached, and are willing to pay for this privilege. And
We Are Not Criminals.


If enough of you guys agree we could start setting up this lobbying group with an email list and a website, and we could all become known as… WANCers.

Hmm, maybe first we can come up with a better name and acronym.

 

[wilbur]

I can't believe this is happening in a country which I always respected and regarded as the best country in the world.

It can happen quite easily. Swedes think that they are the most progressive country in the world, with all of their advanced social policies, and the Nordic Model started there. In fact, they think so highly of their society that they are trying to export the Nordic Model to all other countries. That's why it's here.

But a word of caution: it is the result of the major influence of radical feminism on Swedish politics that the Nordic Model exists. Is that something we want for Canada? It's gotten so bad in Sweden, that one [male] Swedish legislator has drafted a law to have men pee sitting down, making peeing standing up a criminal offense.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HwfVPmFNlg

Swedish male population has been emasculated. No wonder they got beat at the Olympics at hockey.

 

[MattRoxx]

Where are Bedford and her gang now? Are they campaigning somewhere? I haven`t heard from them since the ruling. The least they can do in my view is to issue a public ultimatum through their lawyers to the government or ministry of justice (soon to become ministry of injustice if they go ahead with discriminatory laws put forward by ultra feminists) that they will indeed challenge new laws if they even resemble anything to Nordic model. They messed up for all and now they appear silent!!!!!!!

Where you expecting a txt msg frm TJB?
There were articles in several newspapers and online news sites when Bedford blogged her
List Of Questions For Stephen Harper
Which is, in a way, the "ultimatum" you are demanding. Because she is challenging the government on their definitions and their authority of exactly what they are trying to outlaw.

And if "her gang" includes law professor Alan Young, who represented her pro bono, he`s commented when asked by various media, and as a law professor and lawyer has stated many times that he cannot and does not write laws, he has to wait until Parliament enacts legislation and then he can respond to it.
He`s not going to throw some Doug Ford type temper tantrum and it`s unrealistic for you to demand or expect that sort of lashing out.

February huffingtonpost
Lawyer Alan Young, who fought the Bedford case on behalf of a group of sex-trade workers, said the laws were never really enforced with "great vigour" before. Still, he called the current state of the law a "very odd situation."

In theory it`s a great idea, being responsive to democratic principles by giving the government time to make new legislation, he said.

"It`s symbolically the right thing to do," Young said.

"Practically, it`s a disaster, because what it means is the prostitution laws stay in place and in theory you can charge and prosecute, but you can`t take away the fact they`ve been declared unconstitutional. How can you justify convicting somebody on the base of a law that`s unconstitutional? It doesn`t make sense."

A better question is:
Where are the 132,175 members of https://terb.cc now?!
145 voted in the poll. There`s maybe a couple of dozen who care about what`s happening enough to respond to the guvernment survey and less than half that number who can even bother to speak up in this anonymous thread.
If that`s any indication of hobbyists` political involvement, Harper Mackay and company are right in ignoring what we say we want.

 

[whobee]

We are:
Your neighbours, friends, family members Businessmen, professionals, labourers Doctors, lawyers, teachers, taxi drivers. Mall employees, bartenders, salesmen, tradesmen...

This is a good rallying cry but it's not the same as getting a parking ticket. The stigma would be too much for the majority of the above to be part of any public movement where they can be identified beyond John Smith. They are not willing to give up their businesses, careers and their relationships to be visibly involved.

Any argument against this legislation in our society has to be undertaken from the perspective of the sex worker. They are the best "face" of any anti-legislation efforts. Arguing that a lady has a right to do her thing is fine but trying to make an argument from the perspective of guys who like sex without commitment would likely make the sex trade illegal overnight.

 

[MattRoxx]

I`m almost certain it is possible to create an email address without using one`s real name. Not saying we need to don our Guy Fawkes masks for a march on Capitol Hill.
My point is that instead of 20 individuals each anonymously sending an email to a legislator, we would carry more weight if we could organize and coordinate as a `lobbying group` with 1,000, 10,000, or more people. (The current stat shows 132,175 members of https://terb.cc).

And...a lot of sex workers also want to maintain their anonymity. Unfortunately the most media attention goes to women who have been "rescued" from the industry, from pimps, from drug addiction and are now willing to talk publicly about their experiences.
But as I posted earlier, groups like Maggies are mobilizing. I think that cowering in the shadows and hoping that SPs will come to our defense is too passive, we have to also get our collective voices heard somehow or no one in government is going to care about or even realize how many men are about to be made criminals.

It would also be nice if there was one place where all the info could be compiled instead of what`s currently going on in this forum. There are about 10 threads on this topic. There is:
one thread for the Sun editorial
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?472778-A-Must-Read-Future-0f-Prostitution-Laws

and another thread for the Globe and Mail editorial.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?472741-Prostitution-should-be-legal-Globe

There are 2 threads (at least) critiquing and criticizing the Nordic model.

Rather than encouraging discussion, having all these threads randomly pop up and then fall off the first page of the Lounge IMO dilutes the effectiveness of the message and discourages organization; we get the same few people blowing off steam by making their same points over and over but very little is accomplished.

 

[whobee]

Perhaps the organizational part could be a new thread made into a sticky rather than lumped in with the informational/opinion threads - which could be compiled together.

 

[TeasePlease]

Unfortunately the most media attention goes to women who have been "rescued" from the industry, from pimps, from drug addiction and are now willing to talk publicly about their experiences.

That is precisely the problem. We can harp ad infinitum about women who freely elect to participate in this industry, but until a bunch of them step up and say so themselves, we are fighting an uphill battle against the (admittedly brave) women who tell their personal horror stories.

 

[MattRoxx]

Perhaps the organizational part could be a new thread made into a sticky rather than lumped in with the informational/opinion threads - which could be compiled together.

Yes it would be nice if the OP for the stickied thread would keep updating the first post as new articles and information becomes available.

I. Love. This.


You WANCers are the shit ... you've got my support!

Thanks, but apparently you were the only one. So I've come up with a new name for the lobby group and maybe this will resonate with hobbyists:
Justice In Sexual Matters.

Now let's all pool our resources of JISM together into one big....hmm back to the drawing board.

What about Johns Not Cons? That's not offensive, and sounds pretty good IMO. I have a few ideas to work on to try and get some collective interest and action going.

 

[SkyRider]

Maybe the law and the enforcement will follow the marijuana law. Right now the police can lay a criminal charge or simply issue a warning (no criminal record). Apparently, the police will soon have the option of simply issuing a ticket (no criminal record).

 

[gustave55]

Hi all, I'm on the merb board, also trying to stir shit on this. Glad to see MattRoxx initiative and I am more then willing to spread it on merb.

I had an idea quite similar going along those lines:

1 we ask the governement to sit down with the well established sex workers organisations. They are the ones who know best to conditions of sex work in Canada. They are the ones who should be negotiating the working conditions of sex workers

2 we ask the governement to provide clients with tools to help them combat human trafficking

3 we believe criminalization of clients would be detrimental to the security of sex workers and seriously compromise their ability to help the victims of violence among the sex workers

The boards and the those who sign adhere to the following pricipals :

1 We condemn prostitution of minors

2 we condemn all types of violence and denial of consent of all parties

3 we condemn unprotected sex and promote safe sex pratice.

This could be all canadian boards or t-m-perb only.

Methods of electronic signatures and way to deliver the petition are remained to be seen.

Please add my name to the list. I am more then willing to contribute to any discussion on this.

 

[MattRoxx]

Hi all, I'm on the merb board, also trying to stir shit on this. Glad to see MattRoxx initiative and I am more then willing to spread it on merb.

I had an idea quite similar going along those lines:

1 we ask the governement to sit down with the well established sex workers organisations. They are the ones who know best to conditions of sex work in Canada. They are the ones who should be negotiating the working conditions of sex workers

2 we ask the governement to provide clients with tools to help them combat human trafficking

3 we believe criminalization of clients would be detrimental to the security of sex workers and seriously compromise their ability to help the victims of violence among the sex workers

The boards and the those who sign adhere to the following principles :

1 We condemn prostitution of minors

2 we condemn all types of violence and denial of consent of all parties

3 we condemn unprotected sex and promote safe sex pratice.

This could be all canadian boards or t-m-perb only.

Methods of electronic signatures and way to deliver the petition are remained to be seen.

Please add my name to the list. I am more then willing to contribute to any discussion on this.

Thanks, these are good ideas, will get to work on an online petition using these points, that we can (hopefully) get forum members to endorse.
Anyone want to add to these? I think we could go up to 5 questions and 5 principles.


Also have tried reaching out to Maggies to see how we can assist and cooperate with their efforts. And I plan to contact a legal guy to see if he can add anything to this discussion.

 

[MattRoxx]

Can't edit the OP so here are some references:

Toronto Sun pro-sex trade Column, "Prostitution and Liberty"
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/20/prostitution-and-liberty

Consenting adults should be able to do whatever they damn well please so long as they’re not violating anyone else’s liberty.

Sadly, people on all points of the political spectrum don’t always agree with this. They mistakenly think the point of government is to direct people away from doing things that they’d personally rather not do....

The Globe and Mail: "Should It Be Legal? Yes."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ution-should-it-be-legal-yes/article17173130/

Summary paragraph:

The old rules were imperfect, but they did function. Striking them down was easy for the Supreme Court; replacing them, a job it left to politicians, will not be. What comes next could be a better system, though it is guaranteed to be messy and far from perfect. But to govern is to choose. And on balance, we believe that legalization and regulation, not criminalization, are the way to go.

The Swedish Law To Criminalize Clients: A Failed Experiment in Social Engineering: (.pdf)
http://rightswork.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Issue-Paper-4.pdf

 

[escapefromstress]

Chris is interested in what's happening if you want to contact him too.

Qutoed from perb:

The Government of Canada is seeking the public's input on the criminal law's response to adult prostitution (i.e. the sale and purchase of sexual services from persons 18 years of age or older). This online consultation is open from February 17 to March 17, 2014.

The following link: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cons/cu...tml#2014_02_17 is to the official government page where members of the public can provide input on the following questions:

1. Do you think that purchasing sexual services from an adult should be a criminal offence? Should there be any exceptions? Please explain.

2. Do you think that selling sexual services by an adult should be a criminal offence? Should there be any exceptions? Please explain.

3. If you support allowing the sale or purchase of sexual services, what limitations should there be, if any, on where or how this can be conducted? Please explain.

4. Do you think that it should be a criminal offence for a person to benefit economically from the prostitution of an adult? Should there be any exceptions? Please explain.

5. Are there any other comments you wish to offer to inform the Government's response to the Bedford decision?

6. Are you are writing on behalf of an organization? If so, please identify the organization and your title or role:


While it is debatable as to how much weight this will have in the legislation that the majority conservative government will ultimately put forward, I suspect that not taking the opportunity to voice an opinion (regardless of whether one is in support of decriminalization, legalization, criminalization, or some other option) only ensures that the government has no excuse not to do whatever they feel like doing.

be well,

Chris

Chris Atchison
Department of Sociology
University of Victoria
PO Box 1700 STN CSC
Victoria, BC
V8W 2Y2
email: info@sexsafetysecurity.ca
web: www.sexsafetysecurity.ca​

 

[Jugo]

I recommend both filling out the survey and writing an email to your MP, perhaps attaching a good article condemning the Nordic model. You do not need to state that you are a hobbyist in your email; there are plenty of concerned citizens who just don't think Joy "Dingbat" Smith knows what she is talking about or should be able to speak for all women -- or don't want to see the industry dragged underground by the Nordic model.

I also like the idea of a mass "signed" statement of principles as articulated in post #13. You can create an email address without your name, for example using gmail.
Maybe the Mods of P-M-TERB can help organize this somehow.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Way to go MattRoxx.

Good ideas Gustave.

I will send an email to Chris too.

Can Terb or other webmaster set up a website for hobbyists. I don't mind donating to the cause.

JISM is a great acronym but don't think making a parody of our plight will help. It still might work though.

Johns Not Cons sounds good.

 

[D`anna]

I know that this is beside the point but prostitution still exists in Sweden

http://stockholm.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/

does anyone have the stats regarding clients being arrested/charged for participating in mutual consensual sex between two (or more) adults in Sweden?

Is Toronto Police going to create a task force to get the evil bad men who pay for sex?
They will have to hire a lot more cops to handle you all. How will they budget for that with all the real crime going on in Canada.
It's almost laughable.

 

[Cypher]

And of course no Police Officer has ever paid for sex. Any task force would have to start by arresting themselves.

 

[MattRoxx]

I know that this is beside the point but prostitution still exists in Sweden

http://stockholm.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/

does anyone have the stats regarding clients being arrested/charged for participating in mutual consensual sex between two (or more) adults in Sweden?

Is Toronto Police going to create a task force to get the evil bad men who pay for sex?
They will have to hire a lot more cops to handle you all. How will they budget for that with all the real crime going on in Canada.
It's almost laughable.

This Harper government does not care about us. This week we had an excellent instance of how devious they are, and how they can instantly turn law-abiding citizens into criminals:

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2014/...-for-cannabis-medicines-and-patients-in-need/

In a notice posted on their website earlier today, Health Canada shows why they cannot be trusted to act in the best interest of Canadians who need cannabis-based medicines.

The notice was issued on a Friday afternoon so that it would not get much media coverage. But patients are already in an uproar as it has spread through social media.

The essence of the press release is that patients who had been growing their own cannabis are now legally obligated to send Health Canada a letter confirming they have destroyed all their home-grown medicine by mixing it with kitty litter, and also killed all of their plants.

If Health Canada doesn’t get this notice, then they will call the RCMP in an effort to have patients arrested for cultivation.

The press release begins by saying “Health Canada does not endorse the use of marijuana.” What an odd statement to come from the organization which is overseeing the creation of a national medical marijuana program!

The very first sentence reminds us that Health Canada doesn’t believe in the medical use of cannabis, and that the only reason there is a medical cannabis program at all is because it was “ordered by the Courts.”

This government cannot be trusted.

 

[krazyplayer]

These are great ideas! I contacted my MP. Did the survey. I think the review boards should put what gustav said on their sites.
We have to speak out.

 

[GPIDEAL]

This Harper government does not care about us. This week we had an excellent instance of how devious they are, and how they can instantly turn law-abiding citizens into criminals:


This government cannot be trusted.

Maybe OT but I think they only want licensed establishments growing MM - that's the aim. Otherwise, everybody will say I grow for medicinal purposes.