Thank you Brian Burke

[shack]

Saxon, for one, just keeps on pushing his point.

I'm with you. It is fun to have an honest give and take on points while debating.

The guys who refuse to acknowledge valid arguments and use stupid stats get no respect from me. They are the same as politicians who can never stray from their party's agenda. They are not concerned about an exchange of ideas and enlightening one another, it is just about winning an argument. God forbid that they may show some weakness by actually giving validation to someone else's point of view. I have no use for them.

 

[shack]

Without checking stats, my guess would be Phil sits 4th in the NHL in scoring over the past 4 seasons.

That's what I'm thinking...Stamkos, Ovie,????

4th best over a 4 year period in the best league in the world? PFG as far as I'm concerned.

 

[bigdik]

That's what I'm thinking...Stamkos, Ovie,????

4th best over a 4 year period in the best league in the world? PFG as far as I'm concerned.

Better than I thought TBH. I'd still trade him straight up for Seguin, but that's an eye opener.
I'd also trade him straight up for about 25 other guys, but they`re all also in Sochi right now so I guess that means I may have an inflated opinion of Tyler Seguin.
Also, I reiterate, I`m a Bruins fan. There was a reason he was traded. It`s a team where HOFers (Iggy) need to get with the program or leave. Phil wasn`t on board, that`s why they were willing to let him go. For the record, I think Stamkos and Ovie would have trouble playing in Boston at present.

 

[bullitt]

Better than I thought TBH. I'd still trade him straight up for Seguin, but that's an eye opener.
I'd also trade him straight up for about 25 other guys, but they`re all also in Sochi right now so I guess that means I may have an inflated opinion of Tyler Seguin.
Also, I reiterate, I`m a Bruins fan. There was a reason he was traded. It`s a team where HOFers (Iggy) need to get with the program or leave. Phil wasn`t on board, that`s why they were willing to let him go. For the record, I think Stamkos and Ovie would have trouble playing in Boston at present.

I said same thing about kessel , long time ago. if your not willing to play both ends of the ice, you won,t be on the BRUINS for long. remember Julian sat him for 2 playoff games against montreal in first round because he wouldn,t play the system. ron Wilson sat him for 2 shifts, in a game... great logic there. never said he wasn,t a good hockey player, much like ovie, you can have him on your team... no room for either of them on mine.

 

[bigdik]

Bruins won the cup in spite of the trade not because of it.

Not exactly. Trading Kessel changed the dynamic of the lineup, and the room. It moved players into different spots and allowed some to flourish.
I don't think they won because they had Seguin but it is possible they won because they didn't have Kessel.

 

[maurice93]

Bruins won the cup in spite of the trade not because of it.
And to think Leafs didn't win the Gilmour or Sundin trade because they didn't win the cup with them is laughable.
Great logic there.

Incorrect. The bruins were a cap team, and without the Kessel trade, they would not have had the money to acquire Nathan Horton. The 2 trades were made with this in mind.


Horton was huge in the 2011 playoff run and fit the bruins philosophy much better than Kessel. Not saying that Horton is better than Kessel now, but foe that team he was a much better fit, and was huge in the playoffs.

The bruins gave up much less to get Horton. So not only did they get a fit they got Seguin out of it as well.

And by the way fit matters. You guys have said this over and over to refute any counter argument. You can't have it both ways. Now getting ready for the hater, and you try to hard argument, because I actually raised a point beyond just comparing the point totals of an 19-22 year old vs a 23-26 year old.

I know things can only be analyzed at the most simplistic levels here.

 

[Ironhead]

Incorrect. The bruins were a cap team, and without the Kessel trade, they would not have had the money to acquire Nathan Horton.

I have a question ...
Why did the Bruins try to sign Kessel and only after realizing they(Bruins and Kessel) were not likely to agree did the Bruins decide to trade him ?

 

[Ironhead]

Leafs won the trade !

 

[Ironhead]

Leafs won the trade !

Just to quote media sources.

 

[Bargnani_]

Incorrect. The bruins were a cap team, and without the Kessel trade, they would not have had the money to acquire Nathan Horton. The 2 trades were made with this in mind.


Horton was huge in the 2011 playoff run and fit the bruins philosophy much better than Kessel. Not saying that Horton is better than Kessel now, but foe that team he was a much better fit, and was huge in the playoffs.

The bruins gave up much less to get Horton. So not only did they get a fit they got Seguin out of it as well.

And by the way fit matters. You guys have said this over and over to refute any counter argument. You can't have it both ways. Now getting ready for the hater, and you try to hard argument, because I actually raised a point beyond just comparing the point totals of an 19-22 year old vs a 23-26 year old.

I know things can only be analyzed at the most simplistic levels here.

Does the fact that Kessel could have been a leaf for free this summer if they hadn't traded for him originally been discussed .

 

[ZeroSumPlus]

Is that what you do .. follow my posts and argue them all ? Hey I think it's snowing a lot in Ontario this winter ... Do you agree ?

Ya man, blackrock stalks Terbites instead of banging hot chicks. Sad, but true.

The NHL is very fishy = only 5 NHL teams are below 0.500...
So everyone is fooled... and nobody knows anything.

As for the Leafs, if you adjust for the extra 2 games they've played...
The Leafs are tied for 12th in a 30 team league...
May as well start planning the Stanley Cup parade down Yonge Street.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm?season=20132014&type=LEA

 

[tribunus]

Why did the Bruins try to sign Kessel and only after realizing they(Bruins and Kessel) were not likely to agree did the Bruins decide to trade him ?

The Bruins were never going to sign Kessel at his price ($27/5 years) and were prepared to take the draft pick compensation for an offer sheet from another club (3 picks: 1st, 2nd & 3rd in the same draft). But blowhard Brian didn't believe in offer sheets (Dustin Penner situation) and since Chiarelli was his buddy he offered a 1st, a 2nd and another 1st in the next draft, and Boston quickly did the deal after picking their jaw off the floor. The other clubs interested in Kessel were the Rangers & Predators and they were going to go straight up offer sheet, so when Toronto offered the extra 1st it was a no-brainer.

 

[kirmit129]

So the Leafs are for sure better of with Kessel than Seguin, Hamilton and Knight?

As for best scorer, one things that aided Kessel is the number of games that he played. I think Crosby, Malking, Ovie, Stamkos are better scorers. If John Tavarez was not playing for the Islanders, I think that he'll be in the conversation as well.

 

[shack]

As for best scorer, one things that aided Kessel is the number of games that he played. I think Crosby, Malking, Ovie, Stamkos are better scorers.

A player's value is increased if he is not prone to missing games.

A more talented player is useless if he is injured.

 

[Bargnani_]

A player's value is increased if he is not prone to missing games.

A more talented player is useless if he is injured.

Good point ... the abilty to play a full schedule is asset which should be taken into account if your signing or evaluating a player ..

 

[jimmylikes]

Not world class?? Kessel is top 5 in scoring last 3 years....if thats not world class please explain what is... Besides Ovie , who else scores 50-60 goals ?? No one.... you cant just go by goal scoring ... Kessel is also a better playmaker than Ovie by a mile....keep that in mind

Yes Kessel is a great player but I wouldn't call him one of the best scorers in the world. His best season is just 37 goals I would not say that's world class not when Ovechkin has a pocket full of 50, 60 goal seasons.

 

[Bargnani_]

If Toronto traded Kadri for 2 first round pics and a second round pic ( and one of those pics became a 2nd overall pick ) and in doing so we ( T.O ) won the Cup in the next couple of years ... Would you think the Leafs won the trade even if Kadri tuns out to be a consistent 30 goal scorer ?

 

[Ironhead]

As for the Leafs, if you adjust for the extra 2 games they've played...
The Leafs are tied for 12th in a 30 team league...

I will likely regret this but what the hell ... what wacky math or new fangled standings are you using to determine this ?

And what the fuck does overall standings have to do with anything ?

As for best scorer, one things that aided Kessel is the number of games that he played. I think Crosby, Malking, Ovie, Stamkos are better scorers. If John Tavarez was not playing for the Islanders, I think that he'll be in the conversation as well.

Here we go. You have to love these additions to this thread.

So in short Kessel is sixth .... behind the players mentioned by Kirmit.
I think sixth still makes him one of the best.

Of course, as mentioned by another, Kessel is a far better playmaker the Ovechkin but that was ignored.
Tavaras was given the benefit of 'if he played on a better team' no such courtesy was extended to Kessel ...
unless Kirmit is now saying Leafs are a top team and Bozak is a true number one center ?

If Toronto traded Kadri for 2 first round pics and a second round pic ( and one of those pics became a 2nd overall pick ) and in doing so won the Cup in the next couple of years ... Would you think the Leafs won the trade even if Kadri tuns out to be a consistent 30 goal scorer ?

Kadri / Kessel ... yeah I have a hard time telling them apart also. Their stats are so similar.

 

[Ironhead]

If Toronto traded Kadri for 2 first round pics and a second round pic ( and one of those pics became a 2nd overall pick ) and in doing so we ( T.O ) won the Cup in the next couple of years ... Would you think the Leafs won the trade even if Kadri tuns out to be a consistent 30 goal scorer ?

How to answer the question ...

You left it so open to interpretation ... which drafts ? what position in said draft(s) ? When did the Leafs win in relation to drafted players ?

 

[Bargnani_]

How to answer the question ...

You left it so open to interpretation ... which drafts ? what position in said draft(s) ? When did the Leafs win in relation to drafted players ?

read I said Cup won in next couple of years ... I said one draft pic turns out to be 2nd overall pick