Doctors make too much money

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,060
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CRA cannot "check" individuals bank accounts.
If you're making a lot of "unaccounted" cash, you don't get a mortgage or a car loan - you pay everything in cash and try not to leave a paper trail for the CRA.
You are incorrect and providing very bad advice

The CRA can do a lot if they suspect one is defrauding the govt & not paying taxes

As our society moves further away from cash transactions, anyone following your (bad) advice will find it more and more difficult to obtain credit without a credit history
Unless you have being living under a rock, just everyone knows the economy is driven by credit.
 

DELETDrileydaniels

Ebony Porn Star Delight
Sep 17, 2011
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My sister plans on being a doctor, yea sure she might be going to Olympics but she has spent a great deal of time training her body and her mind, so I am thinking being doctor and spending about 8 or more years in university they should be getting paid well and maybe yes the highest out there.

there are other professions out there that aren't being paid what they should like midwives they are fighting the government to get a pay increase some how women dominated professions are not being recognized and paid for the skills and service they provide to the public and society.

I think professions like doctors, lawyers and other primary health care providers should be paid the highest because we have high expectations of them.

As for TTC drivers being paid pretty damn well I am damn right happy about that because that i what my dad supported me and my siblings on for pretty much my entire life.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
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I think they should deploy web based diagnostic systems people can access...and they will also issue prescriptions. All done by OHIP for free. People will still have a right to see docs of they want. Of course narcotics prescriptions will be very limited.
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
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The Keebler Factory
So I wonder why there hasn't been a public outcry to end the waste, when clearly most of other industries and professions have seen much cost cutting and lowered labour costs from new arriving immigrants. Only medical profession seems to hold up because of the relentless control by certain medical associations (which is really a union, without the word UNION in it).
Translation: George thinks he is underpaid.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,507
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My sister plans on being a doctor, yea sure she might be going to Olympics but she has spent a great deal of time training her body and her mind, so I am thinking being doctor and spending about 8 or more years in university they should be getting paid well and maybe yes the highest out there.

there are other professions out there that aren't being paid what they should like midwives they are fighting the government to get a pay increase some how women dominated professions are not being recognized and paid for the skills and service they provide to the public and society.

I think professions like doctors, lawyers and other primary health care providers should be paid the highest because we have high expectations of them.

As for TTC drivers being paid pretty damn well I am damn right happy about that because that i what my dad supported me and my siblings on for pretty much my entire life.
That is part of the scam. At least 2 years if the time spent in university is unnecessary...so that also limits supply and heightens barriers to entry. There are a lot other barriers to entry and barriers that prevent Dr. wages from falling. The fact is a Dr. CANNOT offer his services for less to attract more business. Also there ARE Dr that are under employed and cannot practice their craft due to being "locked out" (unable to get hospital rights etc etc).
 

George The Curious

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
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Translation: George thinks he is underpaid.
I am not paid at all. I work for myself and depend on no union or origanization to protect my livelihood. I admire those who make their own livelihood with innovation, being their own bosses, including SPs, no matter how much they make. Doctors are businessmen like any other businessmen but with one major advantage - union protection. This advantage comes with a price like many have pointed out - long time and high costs of education, which in itself is unreasonably instilled by medical associations to limit physician licenses.

Lowering barrier to entry to medical profession will increase number of doctors and lower costs - win win for everyone. Existing doctors will complain though since they have put in higher costs and longer years of training only to see their pay checks diminish as waves of new doctors dilute their prestige. But then again, changes are always painful for the aristocrats.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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Wait, what happens when you don't file?
And what do you mean by audit limitation period?
The CRA is only permitted a certain period to reassess taxes. Normally, it's three years from the original assessment (you know, the blue letter you get after you file). So, if you don't file, you don't get assessed, and they could come after you whenever they feel like it (sleep with one eye open?)

If you screwed up and miss a deadline, you can always file late and ask for leniency (voluntary disclosure; I know, tax practitioners vary widely on their opinions. Some HATE this program). But, in theory, if you comply voluntarily, you may be able to get some of the penalties waived. If you don't file and simply wait until they ask you (demand to file), you're pretty well fucked. They'll hit you with full penalties, interest, garnishee wages, etc.


Lowering barrier to entry to medical profession will increase number of doctors and lower costs - win win for everyone. Existing doctors will complain though since they have put in higher costs and longer years of training only to see their pay checks diminish as waves of new doctors dilute their prestige. But then again, changes are always painful for the aristocrats.
That really depends on the bigger picture. In Canada, our model of socialized medicine actually requires collective bargaining associations like the OMA to protect the docs. Otherwise, the gov't would just screw them over (Contrary to popular belief, gov't do screw over docs. Just ask psychiatrists how they fared in the last round of OHIP fee negotiations, or what the fee for an "A004" general consult appt has been for a GP the past 20 years.)

As a general philosophy, I wouldn't want medicine to become a commodity much less a lowest cost commodity.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
51,394
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Lowering barrier to entry to medical profession will increase number of doctors and lower costs - win win for everyone.
False. False. False. Costs to the health care system will not decrease.

The size of the pie stays the same. There will just be more slices cut. The policies regarding the number of doctors does nothing to change how much care is needed by the populace. The market stays the same. More doctors just means their individual income will decrease only because they are seeing less patients and/or doing less procedures.

Now having more doctors available sounds appealing on the surface. But what if the increase in people becoming doctors means the quality of the candidate and the care they provide is decreased? There has to be a point at which that happens, not that any of us know, unfortunately.
 

rld

New member
Oct 12, 2010
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Real problem is socialist medical system. lack of competition. Good doctors should be rewarded even more money to justify their work and effort, while the bad ones should receive less, as with any other line of work.
Your arrogance knows no bounds.

After pointing out the multitude of factual errors showing that you did not understand anything about the North American medical system, you keep posting this garbage.

This post, not surprisingly is ass backwards. In the country with the most capitalist, least restricted medical system in the first world, the wages are the highest.

Again, you have your facts backwards.
 

rld

New member
Oct 12, 2010
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I am not paid at all. I work for myself and depend on no union or origanization to protect my livelihood. I admire those who make their own livelihood with innovation, being their own bosses, including SPs, no matter how much they make. Doctors are businessmen like any other businessmen but with one major advantage - union protection. This advantage comes with a price like many have pointed out - long time and high costs of education, which in itself is unreasonably instilled by medical associations to limit physician licenses.

Lowering barrier to entry to medical profession will increase number of doctors and lower costs - win win for everyone. Existing doctors will complain though since they have put in higher costs and longer years of training only to see their pay checks diminish as waves of new doctors dilute their prestige. But then again, changes are always painful for the aristocrats.
You remain on the wrong planet. Insurance expenses for docs in the United States are already high. How much would they go up if you lower the quality of doctor training.

Who will pay to train this doctors in Canada?

We went through all these numbers in the other thread, but you just keep ignoring them. Why are you being so dishonest?

The number of medical error deaths in the US each year approaches 200,000. How many more would you like?

Medicine is not like other goods and services.

However I am not surprised that you are "not paid at all."
 

George The Curious

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Nov 28, 2011
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False. False. False. Costs to the health care system will not decrease.

The size of the pie stays the same. There will just be more slices cut. The policies regarding the number of doctors does nothing to change how much care is needed by the populace. The market stays the same. More doctors just means their individual income will decrease only because they are seeing less patients and/or doing less procedures.

Now having more doctors available sounds appealing on the surface. But what if the increase in people becoming doctors means the quality of the candidate and the care they provide is decreased? There has to be a point at which that happens, not that any of us know, unfortunately.
I agree the size of pie stays the same. What I meant is the costs for individual docs visit will decrease - for the consumers / patients. The pie may even increase , but it will be justified as more / better service is provided.

The whole point of my previous argument is that quality of doctors will not decrease, as there are tens of thousands of qualified, highly intelligent individuals wanting to become doctors right now, but cannot because of unreasonably high barriers. As of now, many simplest medical services are done by the over-trained, over-paid docs, such as in the case of family medicine where overly majority of complains are simple cold / flu, skin conditions, STDs, i.e. 90% of complaints are common health problems, and any advanced diagnosis are being referred to hospital specialists. In fact, family doctors offices are nothing more than an health information centre, and referring services. And such simply information provider does not need 8+ years of training and hundreds of thousands in tuition. Even half of that is sufficient.

Specialist doctors on the other hand should deserve the increased pay as their work is more advanced and truly require more training. And their research is what is advancing medical science.

So I am not saying all doctors are overpaid, just that the socialist system making pretty much all doctors from simpleton to specialist rich is the problem.
 

rld

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I agree the size of pie stays the same. What I meant is the costs for individual docs visit will decrease - for the consumers / patients. The pie may even increase , but it will be justified as more / better service is provided.

The whole point of my previous argument is that quality of doctors will not decrease, as there are tens of thousands of qualified, highly intelligent individuals wanting to become doctors right now, but cannot because of unreasonably high barriers. As of now, many simplest medical services are done by the over-trained, over-paid docs, such as in the case of family medicine where overly majority of complains are simple cold / flu, skin conditions, STDs, i.e. 90% of complaints are common health problems, and any advanced diagnosis are being referred to hospital specialists. In fact, family doctors offices are nothing more than an health information centre, and referring services. And such simply information provider does not need 8+ years of training and hundreds of thousands in tuition. Even half of that is sufficient.

Specialist doctors on the other hand should deserve the increased pay as their work is more advanced and truly require more training. And their research is what is advancing medical science.

So I am not saying all doctors are overpaid, just that the socialist system making pretty much all doctors from simpleton to specialist rich is the problem.
So you are suggesting our front line docs should be trained less. Good call. Are you willing to pay for the increases in insurance this will cost us, and apologize to the famalies of the dead? How many med mal cases are directed at family docs? Who write the vast majority of prescriptions in Ontario? When you go to an emergency ward...what kind of doc are you most likely to encounter? When surgery is being done in a hospital what kind of doc is most likely to be assisting?

And how can you keep whining about socialism when the country with the most capitalist medical system has doctors who cost way more?

Have you written the CPSO with your proposals?

Just how low are you willing to set the bar for our doctors? What qualifies you to say our docs are "over trained"?

And you do know that specialists already receive far more training and money than GP's right?

PS- almost forgot. In Ontario where we have a shortage of psychiatrists that is expected to last for at least another decade, and psychologists are not covered by OHIP, who does the vast majority of mental health care for patients?
 

George The Curious

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Nov 28, 2011
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What qualifies you to say our docs are "over trained"?
Three personal friends of mine are doctors. One family doctor, one heart surgeon, one oncology specialist. Family doctor friend tells me his work is very repetitive and simple, even an experienced nurse can handle 90% of his work. When I was in university, several of my close friends tried to get into medical school, but failed. One is highly intelligent, and gets 95% on almost all his tests. But the year he applied to medical school, the cut off mark was 96.5% - result of 50000 applicants for about 100 seats. He is an investment analyst in a big financial institution in HK, making no less than a doctor. I have no doubt, if he were admitted to medical school, he would be an excellent doctor. The truth is that there is no shortage of qualified people to become doctors, it is because of greedy union medical associations setting the bars too high to prevent too many people getting into the field to dilute their prestige and fees they can charge for simple prescriptions and referral services. As the result, patients have to endure the long waiting time to access to some of the simplest medicine.
 

rld

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Oct 12, 2010
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Three personal friends of mine are doctors. One family doctor, one heart surgeon, one oncology specialist. Family doctor friend tells me his work is very repetitive and simple, even an experienced nurse can handle 90% of his work. When I was in university, several of my close friends tried to get into medical school, but failed. One is highly intelligent, and gets 95% on almost all his tests. But the year he applied to medical school, the cut off mark was 96.5% - result of 50000 applicants for about 100 seats. He is an investment analyst in a big financial institution in HK, making no less than a doctor. I have no doubt, if he were admitted to medical school, he would be an excellent doctor. The truth is that there is no shortage of qualified people to become doctors, it is because of greedy union medical associations setting the bars too high to prevent too many people getting into the field to dilute their prestige and fees they can charge for simple prescriptions and referral services. As the result, patients have to endure the long waiting time to access to some of the simplest medicine.
It is amazing how you can answer none of my questions. None.

And it is amazing you still believe there is a giant medical union keeping people out of the profession.

Medical school entries in North America are not set by any medical union rather they are set by the schools.

I could sit around and tell you stories about my friends who are docs and those that arn't. Who cares?

If your friends are docs why don't you understand the basic facts of the profession. Like the fact that docs in the Netherlands get paid more than docs here (which you recently got backwards)?

Why do you keep making things up? Is it because your arguments are paper thin and you are too lazy to understand the subject you want to pontificate on?
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Lowering barrier to entry to medical profession will increase number of doctors and lower costs - win win for everyone....
Not a win for people getting Doctors like Nick Riviera. there's a reason why people would rather have the best and brightest caring for their lives.

Notti's idea of online diagnostics is completely idiotic. I don't fully trust GPs to accurately diagnose from an interview but they have the ability to actually collect reliable data from blood pressure to blood tests to MRIs. I have an app on my phone that could measure heart rate but last I checked, home computers don't actually have any diagnostic ability.

As for pay, I don't think doctors deserve top be paid more because of the number of years of education. Their pay should be based on the contribution they make through their job. The education is just is what is required to do that job well.
 

George The Curious

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Nov 28, 2011
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Not a win for people getting Doctors like Nick Riviera. there's a reason why people would rather have the best and brightest caring for their lives.

Notti's idea of online diagnostics is completely idiotic. I don't fully trust GPs to accurately diagnose from an interview but they have the ability to actually collect reliable data from blood pressure to blood tests to MRIs. I have an app on my phone that could measure heart rate but last I checked, home computers don't actually have any diagnostic ability.

As for pay, I don't think doctors deserve top be paid more because of the number of years of education. Their pay should be based on the contribution they make through their job. The education is just is what is required to do that job well.
I completely agree with you - that pay should depend on the service delivered, not number of years in school. The current system however rewards doctors who see large number of patients per day, or how many prescriptions you write, as OHIP pays certain dollar amount per patient visit. Not so much how much time you spend with one patient, or how much attention you provide to that patient, nor does it measure how well you treat them. This is why if you have multiple health problems, most docs require you to make separate appointments for each problem, instead of trying to solve all of them in a single session - as there is no way for him to charge OHIP more for more service delivered.That is why walk-in clinics and family medicine offices usually have a long queue of patients, and docs try to see 100 patients a day, and spend as little time with each as possible. Granted there are some good docs, fortunately I found one, who would try to solve 2 or even 3 of my problems at single visit and he keeps a short waiting list by not accepting new patients.

You can say let's fix OHIP system to reward docs more fairly, but I think the easiest fix is free market competition. Docs will naturally provide better service if they have to compete for patients, rather than turning them away.
 

Cruzer22

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May 18, 2009
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Well maybe a little off from the OPs thread but if you look at the Public Sector Salary Disclosure for 2013 for hospitals to get a feel for the salary range for the medical field. At 194 pages with an average of 45 names per page with an average salary of about $130000, you get a $1.1 billion salary overhead for hospitals minus people under $100k. Pathologist and Psychiatrist seem the best off with average of about $340000.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/pssd/pdf/hospitals_2012.pdf
 

rld

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I completely agree with you - that pay should depend on the service delivered, not number of years in school. The current system however rewards doctors who see large number of patients per day, or how many prescriptions you write, as OHIP pays certain dollar amount per patient visit. Not so much how much time you spend with one patient, or how much attention you provide to that patient, nor does it measure how well you treat them. This is why if you have multiple health problems, most docs require you to make separate appointments for each problem, instead of trying to solve all of them in a single session - as there is no way for him to charge OHIP more for more service delivered.That is why walk-in clinics and family medicine offices usually have a long queue of patients, and docs try to see 100 patients a day, and spend as little time with each as possible. Granted there are some good docs, fortunately I found one, who would try to solve 2 or even 3 of my problems at single visit and he keeps a short waiting list by not accepting new patients.

You can say let's fix OHIP system to reward docs more fairly, but I think the easiest fix is free market competition. Docs will naturally provide better service if they have to compete for patients, rather than turning them away.
It is funny to watch you run away from all of the substantive issues.

When do you think free market medicine will be coming to Ontario?
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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When do you think free market medicine will be coming to Ontario?

It already exists - Medcan, Medsys, Cleveland Clinic.... and it's freakin' expensive. (Really hot receptionists and nurses, though)
 
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