Man with knife on streetcar at Dundas and Grace, shot by police

[cunning linguist]

Damn, crazy video. I seriously thought these police officers, who make over 100K, were better trained to diffuse a situation without killing somebody. Maybe rubber bullets, gas, taser etc. for somebody who is just yielding a knife. But nobody will know the full situation.

Standard issue equipment like handcuffs, baton, radio, firearm and spare magazines already add a significant amount of weight and bulk to duty belts and take their toll on lower backs during 8-12 hour rotating shifts. Less lethal options require specialized training and regular recertification and would add further encumbrance to an already heavy loadout. Not every situation can be dealt with peacefully, which is why police are issued firearms. The subject was clearly instructed, several times, to "drop the knife" yet decided to ignore those warnings. He got what was coming to him.

 

[Rockslinger]

His friends interviewed on CTV NEWS said Sammy was a nice guy. Maybe he got lost and confused on the streetcar. Syrian ethnicity whose English is rather poor. Maybe he didn't understand "drop the knife" in English.

 

[basketcase]

Yeah in the enhanced video I can't see how he was actually a threat from where he was standing when they shot him. ...

Just before the shots, he was moving towards them.

 

[Julian]

Seeing this better video I'd say it was suicide.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Who exactly was this young man a danger to, other than himself? The streetcar was empty, he was pacing inside and the cops were at least 20' away outside...

It's a well-known fact that police are ill-trained and ill-equipped to deal with people with mental illness. And it appears that their lack of empathy and understanding extends to the denizens of TERB...

 

[ogibowt]

Damn, crazy video. I seriously thought these police officers, who make over 100K, were better trained to diffuse a situation without killing somebody. Maybe rubber bullets, gas, taser etc. for somebody who is just yielding a knife. But nobody will know the full situation.

what somebody makes a year does not predict skill levels.........18 million paid to mark Buerle should prove that point....imo the cops executed the guy....too trigger happy imo..

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

It's a well-known fact that police are ill-trained and ill-equipped to deal with people with mental illness

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/28/family-grieving-young-man-shot-dead-on-streetcar-by-cops

The teen had “no history of any mental illness except maybe teenage angst,” he added

 

[cunning linguist]

Who exactly was this young man a danger to, other than himself? The streetcar was empty, he was pacing inside and the cops were at least 20' away outside...

It's a well-known fact that police are ill-trained and ill-equipped to deal with people with mental illness. And it appears that their lack of empathy and understanding extends to the denizens of TERB...

He was a danger to the police constables who responded to the call. Forget all the bullshit you've learned through Hollywood movies about knives, guns and their lethality, ever hear of the "Tueller Drill"? A knife wielding attacker can close distance and make contact, within 21 feet, in approximately 1.5 seconds with devastating effect.

I agree that police training with firearms is very inadequate and the bar is set so low that it wouldn't take that much for a normal civilian to meet or even exceed those levels. However, I will maintain that TPS did what they had to do in this case, the subject could have avoided being shot by TPS if he simply dropped the knife. This shoot was justified.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/28/family-grieving-young-man-shot-dead-on-streetcar-by-cops

I read that, too. So he pulled out a knife - and according to eyewitnesses, his cock - and started ranting and pacing, not to mention ignoring the orders of numerous armed police, because he was bored?

Thank you for illustrating my point about people on TERB have no empathy for or understanding of mental illness...

 

[gcostanza]

what somebody makes a year does not predict skill levels.........18 million paid to mark Buerle should prove that point....imo the cops executed the guy....too trigger happy imo..

Mark Buehrle's salary this year is $12,000,000 .

 

[fuji]

Just before the shots, he was moving towards them.

Yes but he had backed up several steps before that. When he was shot he wasn't even as close as when the video started.

Still seems like suicide by cop to me. Especially since your link earlier seemed to say he is the one who ordered everyone off the bus. Like he didn't want anyone to get hurt.

 

[ogibowt]

Mark Buehrle's salary this year is $12,000,000 .

so what..its gonna be 18 next year

 

[gcostanza]

so what..its gonna be 18 next year

$19,000,000 actually.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

He was a danger to the police constables who responded to the call. Forget all the bullshit you've learned through Hollywood movies about knives, guns and their lethality, ever hear of the "Tueller Drill"? A knife wielding attacker can close distance and make contact, within 21 feet, in approximately 1.5 seconds with devastating effect.

I agree that police training with firearms is very inadequate and the bar is set so low that it wouldn't take that much for a normal civilian to meet or even exceed those levels. However, I will maintain that TPS did what they had to do in this case, the subject could have avoided being shot by TPS if he simply dropped the knife. This shoot was justified.

I understand the lethality of a knife and even watched the episode of Myth Buster that proved it.

My point is simply this: according to eyewitnesses, the police shot this young man very shortly after arriving - no talking down or otherwise negotiating. He did not harm any passengers or the driver of the vehicle. The video doesn't show someone going after police (perhaps the onboard cameras will, but all the enhanced video shows is a kid pacing and ranting) and he certainly hadn't even reached the top step when he was shot three times... Followed by a pause and six more shots being pumped into his prone body.

Mental health groups, among others, in the city, province and country have all clearly stated that the handling of cases of people with mental illnesses by TPS and other forces has been abysmal. For what I've seen thus far, this appears to be another case of that.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

I read that, too. So he pulled out a knife - and according to eyewitnesses, his cock - and started ranting and pacing, not to mention ignoring the orders of numerous armed police, because he was bored?

Thank you for illustrating my point about people on TERB have no empathy for or understanding of mental illness...

How were you able to do a medical diagnosis on this guy so quickly to determine he has mental illness?!

Not everyone who loses his shit and goes postal has mental illness, some people just feel like committing suicide and are too chicken to jump off a building, so they choose suicide by cop

 

[cunning linguist]

I understand the lethality of a knife and even watched the episode of Myth Buster that proved it.

My point is simply this: according to eyewitnesses, the police shot this young man very shortly after arriving - no talking down or otherwise negotiating. He did not harm any passengers or the driver of the vehicle. The video doesn't show someone going after police (perhaps the onboard cameras will, but all the enhanced video shows is a kid pacing and ranting) and he certainly hadn't even reached the top step when he was shot three times... Followed by a pause and six more shots being pumped into his prone body.

Mental health groups, among others, in the city, province and country have all clearly stated that the handling of cases of people with mental illnesses by TPS and other forces has been abysmal. For what I've seen thus far, this appears to be another case of that.

They told him to put down the knife several times, that's all the "talking down or otherwise negotiating" they need to do in a situation involving a lethal weapon, when seconds count.

 

[lovelatinas]

Seems very over the top for someone with a knife IMHO. The guy was in a confined area, a bunch of cops outside... lots of other options like pepper spray or tazer..and they pump a bunch of rounds into the guy. Seriously WTF.. these guys seem too anxious to kill someone.

Cops like to fill out paper work and enjoy talking to Internal Investigations.

 

[Julian]

I understand the lethality of a knife and even watched the episode of Myth Buster that proved it.

My point is simply this: according to eyewitnesses, the police shot this young man very shortly after arriving - no talking down or otherwise negotiating. He did not harm any passengers or the driver of the vehicle. The video doesn't show someone going after police (perhaps the onboard cameras will, but all the enhanced video shows is a kid pacing and ranting) and he certainly hadn't even reached the top step when he was shot three times... Followed by a pause and six more shots being pumped into his prone body.

Mental health groups, among others, in the city, province and country have all clearly stated that the handling of cases of people with mental illnesses by TPS and other forces has been abysmal. For what I've seen thus far, this appears to be another case of that.

I have to agree with you 1000%...the police need much better training. Who exactly did they serve and protect here?

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

More details emerging: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/28/teen-shot-on-streetcar-to-cop-youre-a-f---ing-pussy

Teen shot on streetcar to cop: 'You're a f---ing pussy'

The abundantly available video evidence is as disturbing to listen to as it is to watch.

But you know it will be by a lot people.

“You’re a f---ing pussy.” These are believed to be the final words of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim as he was shot from the gun of at least one Toronto Police officer.

“Drop the knife” may have been the very last words he heard before being shot to death.

These are just some of many revelations on a new video taken by downtown resident Markus Grupp, who was walking by when the incident occurred on Dundas St. W. and Grace St. just after midnight Saturday.

The Grupp film, and others, will be studied relentlessly by the SIU. They already have been analyzed by, it seems, everybody else.

They offer a lot.

And beg many questions too.

Perhaps the most compelling is why did this shooting occur so soon after police arrived on the scene?

Were there other ways to go?

“The shots were fired less than two minutes after the cops arrived,” said Grupp.

Why not a better attempt at negotiations? Why not wait longer? Was there an immediate threat?

The deceased’s uncle Jim Yatim tells the Toronto Sun his nephew had no known history of mental illness.

So why was there shooting instead of talking?

“There were also eight to 11 cops at the front door at one point,” said Grupp.

“Not sure of the threat the victim posed to the public.”

But Grupp did make this observation.

“The (several) ‘you’re a f---ing pussy’ taunts came shortly before the first three shots,” he said. “If public safety was a concern, then there were no officers focused on containing the scene and moving away bystanders until after the shooting.

“Little effort was made to secure the rear door.”

The actions, anxiousness — in some cases the lack of — is also noteworthy.

At “12:04 a.m. (Saturday) one or more Toronto Police officers fire three shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of six shots,” Grupp said. “I hear what I believe is a Taser fired. Shortly thereafter, one or two officers board the streetcar and one officer runs on the back.”

But it was a female officer, standing next to what is believed to be the shooting officer, that has caught the eye of many.

“A female officer stands beside the subject officer with her arms folded in front of her, with no weapon drawn and no sign of any concern for her safety,” notes crime specialist Ross McLean, a former Toronto copper. “At the five-second mark, the suspect appears to raise both his arms, in a surrender-type movement, then as another officer runs around the back of the streetcar he holds the knife up for him to see.”

What does the TTC streetcar camera show?

The question is what was it the shooting officer, or perhaps officers, felt was the risk that other officers like the female did not seem to be concerned with?

Why was the area not more shut down with such a risk imminent?

“Several pedestrians and cyclists continue to pass through the scene from east to west,” said Grupp. “Several cars pass by the scene from west to east on Dundas.”

McLean notices two other interesting factors.

One is it appears the first three police bullets rang out while the suspect was standing. The next six when he appears to be down on the ground or on his knees.

“The final six shots, it appears the officer has now levelled the gun, as opposed to the angled up position of his arm previously, possibly indicating the final shots were fired at the suspect on the floor of the streetcar,” said McLean.

“Just 19 seconds later a police officer is seen running into the picture quickly carrying what appears to be a Taser in his hands, he moves to the first stair of the streetcar, and at 1:28 of the video, apparently deploys the Taser, 38 seconds after the final shot.

“The officer’s arm angle would appear to show he was deploying it on the suspect on the floor of the streetcar.”

Meanwhile, look at the Grupp video closely: You can see officers appear to be pulling the shooter officer away. Once the nine gunshots have stopped, “he is surrounded by officers who grab him and pull him back sharply (while) he appears to be pointing his gun at the suspect.” It’s a strange scene.

But thanks to the videos there is so much available for the public to see and so much evidence for the SIU to consider.

For public confidence and perception they, and Toronto Police brass and the association, have got to get this one right.

In the end, the SIU will decide whether a crime occurred in this police shooting. But either way regular citizens will decide if what went on there this weekend was a justified shooting or a fatal case of comply-or-die overkill

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

They're already planning a protest march for tomorrow:

https://www.facebook.com/events/551969194868293/

Emergency Vigil/March - Justice for Sammy: End Police Violence

In coordination with the friends and family of Sammy, this event has been changed to start at Dundas Square at 5pm, it will then march to Dundas and Bellwoods for around 6:30pm. Please meet us at either location.

On Friday night Toronto Police shot and killed 18 year old Sammy Yatim on a 505 streetcar at Dundas and Bellwoods. This is an emergency vigil/march to demand justice for Sammy and an end to police violence.

We will gather at the site of the shooting and march to 14 Division - the cops responsible for killing Sammy and others before him including Edmond Yu who was also shot by police on the TTC in 1997.

Bring candles and signs