New TTC Streetcars Unveiled

[fuji]

I challenge the merits of even considering "passability" of a 250 person vehicle by a 1 person vehicle. Slowing down the commute of 250 people so that one asshole can get to work ten minutes faster is entirely counter productive and a shitty way to manage road capacity.

Toronto is a big city and we need to be thinking about throughout on the roads. People miles per hour.

 

[GPIDEAL]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/23/media_enjoys_preview_ride_aboard_new_ttc_streetcars.html

Very nice and low profile. The old streetcars which have lasted decades are tanks but that's maybe why they lasted so long.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Depends on the model of streetcar vs the model of bus. The king streetcars are also often packed well above their official capacity.

The new streetcars carry 250 people officially the current ones 132. A bus typically carries about 50 or 60.

They can all be overloaded and streetcars often carry well over capacity, and it is a lot safer to overload a streetcar due to the smoother ride.

Well, it was a nice nostalgic ride for me. My friend and I decided to leave the car at Old Mill (of all places) subway station down below the bridge. The TTC was the better way for Sun with the road closures and all, and nice sunny day to walk outside.

They still use the cord to notify the driver as to stopping for you.

 

[GPIDEAL]

I challenge the merits of even considering "passability" of a 250 person vehicle by a 1 person vehicle. Slowing down the commute of 250 people so that one asshole can get to work ten minutes faster is entirely counter productive and a shitty way to manage road capacity.

Toronto is a big city and we need to be thinking about throughout on the roads. People miles per hour.

Not everybody can commute from home via public transit. (What's the use to a high density street car on one stretch if you can't get to it practically or in a reasonable amount of town from where you live?).

We can't declare war on the car.

 

[fuji]

Not everybody can commute from home via public transit. (What's the use to a high density street car on one stretch if you can't get to it practically or in a reasonable amount of town from where you live?).

We can't declare war on the car.

That is true but the interests of 250 people simply outweigh the interest of 1. And most of those single car drivers really could have driven to a GO train station. Most of them drive out of convenience rather than necessity.

There are a few, like delivery or sales people who make multiple trips during the day who do need to drive, but most of the 9 to 5 types that drive could have used transit at least to get downtown.

 

[fuji]

I can't see St. Clair as being a high volume route which goes nowhere. Unless every local person who lives near St. Clair uses TTC and they fill up those cars quick all of the time. But pretty expensive just for local traffic.

See here:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

Answers some of reds questions too.

So St. Clair streetcar carries 32400 people per day at a cost of $69k per day versus the slightly less busy Steele's East bus which carries only 28100 but costs $81k per day.

The price advantage on St. Clair will grow as ridership on the two routes increases as St. Clair has lots of spare capacity while Steeles East is already running a bus every couple of minutes at peak.

 

[red]

See here:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

Answers some of reds questions too.

So St. Clair streetcar carries 32400 people per day at a cost of $69k per day versus the slightly less busy Steele's East bus which carries only 28100 but costs $81k per day.

The price advantage on St. Clair will grow as ridership on the two routes increases as St. Clair has lots of spare capacity while Steeles East is already running a bus every couple of minutes at peak.

its not clear whether this is operating costs only or takes into account capital costs (buying street cars and installing rail vs buying electric buses). also i didn't think the steeles east buses were electric?

 

[GameBoy27]

I challenge the merits of even considering "passability" of a 250 person vehicle by a 1 person vehicle. Slowing down the commute of 250 people so that one asshole can get to work ten minutes faster is entirely counter productive and a shitty way to manage road capacity.

Toronto is a big city and we need to be thinking about throughout on the roads. People miles per hour.

Boy you sure do have a hate on for "asshole" car drivers. I'm sure there's many people who drive solo downtown but I'll bet most do it to save a lot more than 10 minutes. Not everyone can live in your little utopia fuji, where it's practical and time efficient to take public transit to and from work.

I think if you researched how many people commute to downtown solo to save less than 10 minutes the numbers wouldn't be that great. Most people drive because it saves them time and gives them the freedom if necessary to make additional stops on the way home.

If someone owns a car and they save 30 mins. each way per day vs. transit, that's a time savings of about 250 hours a year. Driving saves 375 hours a year vs. transit.

Considering the least expensive part of owning a car (which I need to shuttle around my wife, kids, parents etc.) is the fuel, it's a no brainer for me to drive. In fact I only pay 2.75 per day in fuel cost above the price of a Metropass. If I factor in the TTC fares I would have to pay to drive my family and parents everywhere, it probably equals what I pay for fuel. Not to mention I don't have to stand when it's raining or snowing to wait for transit twice a day.

Based on my situation, I'll drive thank you very much. I know many who are in the exact same position which is why there's so many cars on the road.

If that makes me an asshole, so be it.

 

[fuji]

its not clear whether this is operating costs only or takes into account capital costs (buying street cars and installing rail vs buying electric buses). also i didn't think the steeles east buses were electric?

They are hybrid diesel electric.

 

[fuji]

Boy you sure do have a hate on for "asshole" car drivers. I'm sure there's many people who drive solo downtown but I'll bet most do it to save a lot more than 10 minutes. Not everyone can live in your little utopia fuji, where it's practical and time efficient to take public transit to and from work.

I think if you researched how many people commute to downtown solo to save less than 10 minutes the numbers wouldn't be that great. Most people drive because it saves them time and gives them the freedom if necessary to make additional stops on the way home.

If someone owns a car and they save 30 mins. each way per day vs. transit, that's a time savings of about 250 hours a year. Driving saves 375 hours a year vs. transit. Considering the least expensive part of owning a car (which I need to shuttle around wife, kids, parents etc.) is the fuel, it's a no brainer for me to drive. In fact I only pay 2.75 per day in fuel cost above the price of a Metropass. Not to mention I don't have to stand when it's raining or snowing while I wait for transit twice a day.

Based on my situation, I'll drive thank you very much. I know many who are in the exact same position which is why there's so many cars on the road.

You missed the point. I was talking about PASSING to save ten minutes. About the stupidity of inconveniencing 250 people so that one asshole can pass their vehicle(s) more easily.

 

[red]

You missed the point. I was talking about PASSING to save ten minutes. About the stupidity of inconveniencing 250 people so that one asshole can pass their vehicle(s) more easily.

there is only one car on the road?

 

[spraggamuffin]

So much to look forward to.I can't wait

http://www.damncoolpictures.com/2013/01/damn-public-transport.html

 

[fuji]

there is only one car on the road?

Behind one streetcar. There are also lots of streetcars on king. Far more of the people on king are on the transit than are in cars, it isn't even close.

 

[explorerzip]

See here:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

Answers some of reds questions too.

So St. Clair streetcar carries 32400 people per day at a cost of $69k per day versus the slightly less busy Steele's East bus which carries only 28100 but costs $81k per day.

The price advantage on St. Clair will grow as ridership on the two routes increases as St. Clair has lots of spare capacity while Steeles East is already running a bus every couple of minutes at peak.

It's shameful that many downtown routes like Queen, King, Spadina and Dufferin have huge ridership numbers yet a relief line will likely never be built.

 

[red]

It's shameful that many downtown routes like Queen, King, Spadina and Dufferin have huge ridership numbers yet a relief line will likely never be built.

it will if the politicians listen to the people.

 

[fuji]

it will if the politicians listen to the people.

Why isn't Rob Ford listening? He is building a subway to nowhere on the claim that future demand will justify it, when there is already today a real present need to relieve traffic on the enormously popular downtown routes.

Every route into downtown is both the busiest of its class and bulging over capacity, meanwhile downtown wards also have the highest rates of growth and new development.

The entire Sheppard subway line serves fewer people than a single subway station in the core!

 

[Tiny Titty Lover]

Why isn't Rob Ford listening? He is building a subway to nowhere on the claim that future demand will justify it, when there is already today a real present need to relieve traffic on the enormously popular downtown routes./QUOTE]

Mr. Fuji, have you ever ridden the TTC during the morning rush hour from Scarborough into the downtown core? Or in the afternoon out of it?

 

[explorerzip]

Why isn't Rob Ford listening? He is building a subway to nowhere on the claim that future demand will justify it, when there is already today a real present need to relieve traffic on the enormously popular downtown routes./QUOTE]

Mr. Fuji, have you ever ridden the TTC during the morning rush hour from Scarborough into the downtown core? Or in the afternoon out of it?

Have you ridden the Queen streetcar or been at Yonge and Bloor station?

 

[fuji]

The best improvement for Scarborough commuters would be a subway line from around woodbine running south and west to king station.

 

[needinit]

Without reading the whole thread so maybe this was brought up and keeping it simple....the debate about streetcars and electric buses or any comparisons of 'products' relates to the overall costs to implement and maintain and the hidden benefits of who pays for those costs...for example initial capital costs may be funded in part by the next level of government (provincial or federal) under development programs...the overall operational costs are then paid for by the users and via taxation so efficiency play a major part in that (ie volume of passengers versus wages).

In a similar manner, I had an inquiry in the business section about investing in solar technology which took a bit of a beating last year - the market is gaining traction now due to a different business model where home owners are basically leasing their roof space to a solar company and getting a cut of the electricity produced - which is often paid for at a premium to encourage such investment. When the home owners needed to purchase the solar panels the ROI was extremely low, now it is much more favourable...the economics affect the best installation not necessarily which is best for a city, and this is similar with street cars and buses debate IMO.