New TTC Streetcars Unveiled

[fuji]

Are you on glue fuji? Of course drivers pay to use roads. There's taxes and fees on auto sales, parts, service, tires, lease payments, maintenance, fuel, licence fees, parking, traffic tickets and the list goes on.

The problem is that governments collect these taxes and fees but only spend a portion on roads and transit. In fact, $2.3 billion of the fuel tax alone collected each year goes into Provincial general coffers.

To say drivers pay zero is the stupidest think I've ever heard you say. :frusty:

The city doesn't get a cent of that. The city provisioned roads are paid by property taxes. Drivers use them for free.

To the city roads are pure cost with no associated revenue at all. At least transit users kick in a couple of bucks.

And 2.3 billion isn't even the interest on the interest on the provinces capital investment in highways, which is what that money is for. The 407 alone is an investment worth over a hundred billion in land value. One highway. And that is before the cost of maintaining it.

 

[GameBoy27]

The city doesn't get a cent of that. The city provisioned roads are paid by property taxes. Drivers use them for free.

The fact remains, drivers are charged to use roads. The problem is the Provincial Government doesn't spend nearly enough on of what it collect from them on roads and transit. Don't bitch at drivers, save that for your local MPP. That's the real problem.

 

[fuji]

The fact remains, drivers are charged to use roads. The problem is the Provincial Government doesn't spend nearly enough on of what it collect from them on roads and transit. Don't bitch at drivers, save that for your local MPP. That's the real problem.

The province doesn't collect enough money from drivers to cover the cost of provincial highways.

The city gets nothing at all for the municipal roads it provides which drivers use absolutely free of charge.

This is just the fact of the matter.

 

[GameBoy27]

The Province doesn't spend the money it collects from drivers on provincial highways.

The city gets none of the the taxes the Province collects from drivers for the municipal roads.

This is just the fact of the matter.

There, I fixed your post.

Drivers do pay, the Province doesn't just doesn't share all of it.

This is just the fact of the matter. If you can't see that, you're blind.

 

[Jennifer_]

I can't see St. Clair as being a high volume route which goes nowhere. Unless every local person who lives near St. Clair uses TTC and they fill up those cars quick all of the time. But pretty expensive just for local traffic.

I lived very-close to St. Clair a few years-ago and used the streetcar regularly.

It was always full and I relied heavily on it.

Once it was up and running, it was a great service...

I don't drive anymore and as long as I live in Toronto, I won't - it's a waste of my time and money to have a car.

Many many people rely on streetcars in Toronto, including those who use the St. Clair route. I regularly took it to go to Loblaws or to connect with the subway when I needed to be downtown. Many many people use that route ~ I'm excited to see the new vehicles.

 

[WinterHawk]

The province gets tax revenue every time I fill my gas tank, buy tires, oil changes, maintenance, etc. The problem is that instead of allocating all of the taxes collected from gasoline sales, licence renewals, etc., they put it in General Revenue so that they don't have to raise the general sales tax or income tax to levels that would pay for all of the programs and projects they flush our tax dollars down the toilet with.

If the money paid by motorist and trucking companies was set aside for roads we'd be fine. There may even be something left over to help fund public transit projects to get people moving who can't afford to drive. Putting them in Subways or LRTs with dedicated lands as not to eliminate existing roads would help in lowering congestion.

Finally raising local property taxes and income tax plus encouraging high density development to pay for Subway stations would finance public transit projects. Putting in an LRT by reducing the number of cars and trucks that can operate on a roadway is just madness. Anyone who thinks that putting in ANY public transit will get a significant number of cars off the road is a fool. Ask the people who use public transit today why the do so and their answer will almost always be because I have to, I can't afford a car and or to drive to work because of parking, gas or we only have 1 car in the family.

Public transit is a SUBSIDY from the HAVES to the HAVE NOTS. I don't include GO trains in this as these trains are used to move primarily suburbanites to the downtown core and back again. When I used to GO, the majority of the passengers drove to the stations, wore suits and dresses, minks in the winter. An entirely different class of people ride the bus, streetcar or Subway.

Face it people, your going to have to take a big hit in your wallets to pay for the infrastructure repairs and upgrades required over the next 25 years, so shut up and pay up. Do you honestly think the government can continue to do things like they have since you were a kid? How did your parents pay for the YOUNGE STREET Subway, your high school, the arena you learned how to skate at?

Now it's your turn, so stop whining and man up.

 

[fuji]

There, I fixed your post.

Drivers do pay, the Province doesn't just doesn't share all of it.

This is just the fact of the matter. If you can't see that, you're blind.

The city gets no money from drivers. Drivers get free roads in the city. Roads paid from property taxes.

At the provincial level drivers pay only a fraction of the cost. Overwhelmingly they get heavily subsidised.

The money collected from drivers at the provincial level doesn't cover even the maintenance and construction of roads. Nothing is contributed at all for the value of the land the roads are on.

Roads and parking occupy an enormous swath of real estate and drivers for some bizarre reason think it should be free. Of course it wasn't free. It took the province decades if expropriation to acquire the very expensive land the 407 is on, and drivers have never covered even one red cent of that cost.

The excess land in the city to serve drivers versus transit users is enormous. If fewer oriole drove the city could sell that land to developers or turn it into parks, schools. But it is currently paved and made available at no charge to drivers. They don't even pay rent!

What a fucking sense of entitlement!

 

[WinterHawk]

The city gets no money from drivers. Drivers get free roads in the city. Roads paid from property taxes.

At the provincial level drivers pay only a fraction of the cost. Overwhelmingly they get heavily subsidised.

The money collected from drivers at the provincial level doesn't cover even the maintenance and construction of roads. Nothing is contributed at all for the value of the land the roads are on.

Roads and parking occupy an enormous swath of real estate and drivers for some bizarre reason think it should be free. Of course it wasn't free. It took the province decades if expropriation to acquire the very expensive land the 407 is on, and drivers have never covered even one red cent of that cost.

The excess land in the city to serve drivers versus transit users is enormous. If fewer oriole drove the city could sell that land to developers or turn it into parks, schools. But it is currently paved and made available at no charge to drivers. They don't even pay rent!

What a fucking sense of entitlement!

Another whining SOCIALIST, I want, I want, I want!!!

Who do you think paid for the roads in use today? Our parents and Grandparents, that's who. Through the taxes collected at both a city and provincial level. Do you think all of this got built overnight? All of the 400 series of highways were paid for by the taxpayers of this provience and the city or town you grew up in.

Public transit was more heavenly subsidized by the provience at one time, that has slowly changed as the responsibility has fallen to your city or town. Now Toronto has to come up with the funds to repair, maintain and expand public transit.

As for paying for our roads, that comes out of the property taxes paid by homer owners and apartment renters plus business. Do you believe that the TTC pays for the roads out of your fares? Give your head a shake.

The TTC is the least subsidized public transit authority in North America. Now do you think it's fair that you can ride the rocket for just 1 fare regardless of the distance? You want to make it more fair to all of the ridership, then pay by mileage. You use it you pay for it. If I use the 407, I pay by use.

So stop bitching about people driving their cars, their paying for the roads just like you, if not more so.

 

[GPIDEAL]

I lived very-close to St. Clair a few years-ago and used the streetcar regularly.

It was always full and I relied heavily on it.

Once it was up and running, it was a great service...

I don't drive anymore and as long as I live in Toronto, I won't - it's a waste of my time and money to have a car.

Many many people rely on streetcars in Toronto, including those who use the St. Clair route. I regularly took it to go to Loblaws or to connect with the subway when I needed to be downtown. Many many people use that route ~ I'm excited to see the new vehicles.

When you live close to St. Clair, and it's there, sure. I would too, primarily because it's hard to get around by car and not worth the hassle of parking on that inner city street. But it's impractical from beyond the route unless it's accessible all the way to the west.

This is only when you don't have a personal chauffeur.

 

[GPIDEAL]

The city gets no money from drivers. Drivers get free roads in the city. Roads paid from property taxes.

At the provincial level drivers pay only a fraction of the cost. Overwhelmingly they get heavily subsidised.

The money collected from drivers at the provincial level doesn't cover even the maintenance and construction of roads. Nothing is contributed at all for the value of the land the roads are on.

Roads and parking occupy an enormous swath of real estate and drivers for some bizarre reason think it should be free. Of course it wasn't free. It took the province decades if expropriation to acquire the very expensive land the 407 is on, and drivers have never covered even one red cent of that cost.

The excess land in the city to serve drivers versus transit users is enormous. If fewer oriole drove the city could sell that land to developers or turn it into parks, schools. But it is currently paved and made available at no charge to drivers. They don't even pay rent!

What a fucking sense of entitlement!

Fuji, first the road was for the buggy and horse. Then eventually the car. Public transit is secondary.

 

[fuji]

Fuji, first the road was for the buggy and horse. Then eventually the car. Public transit is secondary.

Not on king street at rush hour nor in the downtown core of any major world city.

 

[fuji]

Winterhawk the money collected on gas doesn't even pay the interest on what it cost to build roads. It doesn't even cover what it costs to maintain them.

I think we should move to user pays full cost for all modes of transportation.

Transit riders should pay full rate for the cost of building and running transit.

Car drivers should pay the full cost of the road system including the value of the land the road is on. It is not a sunk cost if few people drove we could sell off the DVP or Gardiner to developers for a shitload of money, with a much smaller rail corridor carrying many more people.

We could take roads like university and put buildings down the centre with smaller lanes on each side.

It depends on how many cars there are vs other transit. Right now we collect no rent from drivers for that land use and that subsidy encourages too much driving.

Eliminate all subsidies and move to user pays for all transportation.

Let the market decide.

 

[5hummer]

A surface subway incorporated into the GO network is one option being floated by a group of rail advocates.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/15/scarborough_transit_the_answer_could_be_riding_on_go.html

 

[yaman]

When was the last time you even looked at a streetcar in Toronto Polaris? Many people use streetcars and they're definitely not just for tourists. You're thinking of those cable cars in San Francisco (that are frequented by tourists), but commuters use them too. The vehicles that tourists use in Toronto are those double decker buses with an open top or the long defunct hippo mobile that drove in the water. The TTC also occasionally runs those classic red and yellow streetcars (red rockets) for special events like the CNE, weddings, etc. but they're not in regular service.

One thing that wasn't mentioned is that the TTC was in the process of getting rid of the streetcars in the early 1980's, but a citizens group led by Jane Jacobs, I think pressured the TTC to keep them. So it's politics combined with the enormous cost of completely getting rid of the streetcar are some of the reason why we still have a streetcars at all. You also have to remember the number of unionized maintenance and repair jobs at stake if we got rid of them.

That would of been the opportunity to switch to more subway in the core, unfortunately that time has come and gone. We are playing catch up since and it's more expensive to ride here then NYC or Paris.

 

[WinterHawk]

“Canadians are paying $24 in tax every time they fill up their tank,” said CTF Federal Director Gregory Thomas. “The average two-car Canadian family will pay $1,262 a year in gas tax this year, with $72 actually being tax charged on other taxes. It’s just wrong.”

 

[spraggamuffin]

“Canadians are paying $24 in tax every time they fill up their tank,” said CTF Federal Director Gregory Thomas. “The average two-car Canadian family will pay $1,262 a year in gas tax this year, with $72 actually being tax charged on other taxes. It’s just wrong.”

It's the Canadian/Ontario way. Paying taxes on taxes.

HST on a non value added or depreciating item for example cars.

Yay.

 

[explorerzip]

That would of been the opportunity to switch to more subway in the core, unfortunately that time has come and gone. We are playing catch up since and it's more expensive to ride here then NYC or Paris.

Yup, we're spending good money after bad to keep the streetcars going. Interesting how the streetcar is starting to come back in some US and European cities though.

The TTC is somewhat more expensive than NYC, but not a huge difference. NYC's single ride fare could be seen as more expensive since you have to use it within 2 hours of purchase and you can't transfer. $3 cash fare in this town goes a lot further: transfers to subway, streetcar, etc. and no time restriction if buy tokens ahead of time.

http://web.mta.info/nyct/fare/FaresatAGlance.htm#save

 

[OddSox]

Winterhawk the money collected on gas doesn't even pay the interest on what it cost to build roads. It doesn't even cover what it costs to maintain them.

I think we should move to user pays full cost for all modes of transportation.

Transit riders should pay full rate for the cost of building and running transit.

Car drivers should pay the full cost of the road system including the value of the land the road is on. It is not a sunk cost if few people drove we could sell off the DVP or Gardiner to developers for a shitload of money, with a much smaller rail corridor carrying many more people.

We could take roads like university and put buildings down the centre with smaller lanes on each side.

It depends on how many cars there are vs other transit. Right now we collect no rent from drivers for that land use and that subsidy encourages too much driving.

Eliminate all subsidies and move to user pays for all transportation.

Let the market decide.

You're really starting to lose it. Do you honestly think there would be no roads if everyone took transit? What about trucks keeping factories in business, delivery vehicles with your food and furniture, fire trucks and ambulances, and taxies for those nights out when transit doesn't even run?

On another item that you mentioned - municipalities in Ontario do in fact get a share of the gasoline tax revenues.

 

[fuji]

You're really starting to lose it. Do you honestly think there would be no roads if everyone took transit?

How did you ever manage to get that from my post?

Try this word out:

Fewer.

 

[explorerzip]

I think we should move to user pays full cost for all modes of transportation.

That might sound nice, but the real cost of any form of transportation could be quite high. Airlines for one are in a hyper competitive industry so charging customers the actual cost might put them out of business. You have to have cheap rates to attract passengers and fill the plane. In the airline example, you essentially have the first and executive class passengers paying significantly more and partially subsidizing the "steerage" class passengers. Sure it costs more to service a first or executive class passenger: gourmet meals, wine, bigger seats, etc. but is it actually double or triple the price for providing the same basic service as economy passengers, which would be getting them from A to B? In my mind cruise ships are the same too; you need to have many cheap tickets fill the boat and the more expensive tickets partially subsidize the cheap ones.

You are kind of right in that some drivers are using our roads for "free" those would be people out of province. They put wear and tear and our roads yet don't pay a toll unless they're using 407.

The fact is in Canada we don't directly see the cost of using the roads since it's largely taken care of through taxes. When you have tolls, you're somewhat more aware of the cost of using the roads.