It had better be dammit!! I dont know any more though.
We need to have a male, SP-slutwalk for fuck sakes!!!!
Swedish Anti-Prostitution Laws Deemed a "Success"
- Thread starter Phil C. McNasty
- Start date
We need to have a male, SP-slutwalk for fuck sakes!!!!
Actually the johns are so much easier to target that he girls that apparently it was less expensive in Sweden.
I was told but did not verify that impounding cars, and fines had mode the initiative a significant cash producer for the local police. Sort of like the speeding tickets in Southern US.
They used to run stories about all the arrests they could get in just one night.
Well, my strategy has been to counteract the propaganda of the moral conservatives and the radical feminists with actual "empirical evidence." Perhaps one of the most significant parts of Justice Himel's reasoning behind her decision (ratio decidendi) was that the courts needed to grant more weight to empirical evidence that was provided by people who were not positioned as "advocates" to a particular cause (read taking a side for abolition or decriminalization). In doing this she sent a pretty clear message that the courts should be looking at the weight of the evidence (the methodology, the ethics, and the generalizability of the findings).
While I appreciate and agree with Reverdy's assertion that "To have an actual bite, any such law would require additional funds to be provided to the various police forces, if they are expected to implement it." I do not agree with his/her assertion that "While there may be public support for this in Sweden, I don't see how in the current context the same argument could be made here in Canada." The evidence is very much to the contrary on this as municipal, regional, provincial and federal (read RCMP) police forces are forming anti-trafficking task forces (see http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/pub/traite-trafficking/traite-trafficking-eng.htm) to address this issue. In fact, it would appear that the police are jumping on this as a means of re-acquiring funding that has been previously cut from their budgets even if there have actually been very few actual charges laid under Canada's anti-trafficking laws (88 in Canada I believe, with only 4 going to trial and 3 of these involving farm/construction labour). The government of Canada and the USA seems to be very much on the anti-trafficking band wagon.
My feeling is that the best way to fight a battle that is being fought on information/knowledge grounds is to counter-act the knowledge claims with other knowledges. If the abolitionists, radical feminists, and others who are propagating sweeping generalizations that people who pay for sexual services are 'dangerous,' 'predatory,' 'violent,' 'diseased,' paedophilic,' and 'misogynistic' it is up to the people who purchase and sell sexual services to find a platform to present information (data) that questions these assertions.
This has been the focus of much of what I have been doing with my own academic research for the the past 18 years and this is what I am currently committed to doing with my current projects (mentioned elsewhere on this and many other Canadian forums). Having said this I don't want this conversation to become about my research, I do hope that sex buyers and sellers alike will come together and decide what needs to be done.
If anti-prostitution groups can convince the public that johns are all perverts, pedophiles, and a clear and present danger to society (particularly women and children), it will practically sell itself.
And this government is not shy about going into debt to fund its priorities. An immediate tax hike that is clearly connected to this initiative is not required.
Well, I wonder....
The conservatives are currently busy putting the anti-abortion faction of their party down, as they really don't want to be seen as "social conservatives." This kind of initiative would probably push similar buttons, at least initially. They probably have a better angle here though, the "life starts at conception, you're killing a baby!" line clearly doesn't have traction, but maybe "all prostitutes are trafficked poor women with pimps" could have. So the idea of putting an alternative view out there is probably very important.
But the context for the federal Conservatives is changing - they are past the half-way point in their mandate, and are probably looking (on the evidence of the abortion issue) to try not to get into this sort of stuff while they try to polish themselves up for an election. Their poll numbers don't look good currently, at least to maintain their majority, and they look like losing if Trudeau becomes leader.To put this issue out there, they would have to be together on it, and think that in the short term it would win them more votes than they would lose. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Of course the witch Joy (Who?) is pushing like hell, but does she have people backing her to bring this home? I think the timing is off.
As an aside, the kind of hobbying I do involves escorts coming to my home. I am buying their time. We might decide to have sex. Unless she is trying to entrap me, where is my risk?
To Safesexsecure - I looked at your site, will probably fill out the questionaire. I like what you are doing. How is the response? Do you need more interviews?
The conservatives are currently busy putting the anti-abortion faction of their party down, as they really don't want to be seen as "social conservatives." This kind of initiative would probably push similar buttons, at least initially. They probably have a better angle here though, the "life starts at conception, you're killing a baby!" line clearly doesn't have traction, but maybe "all prostitutes are trafficked poor women with pimps" could have. So the idea of putting an alternative view out there is probably very important.
But the context for the federal Conservatives is changing - they are past the half-way point in their mandate, and are probably looking (on the evidence of the abortion issue) to try not to get into this sort of stuff while they try to polish themselves up for an election. Their poll numbers don't look good currently, at least to maintain their majority, and they look like losing if Trudeau becomes leader.To put this issue out there, they would have to be together on it, and think that in the short term it would win them more votes than they would lose. I think they have bigger fish to fry. Of course the witch Joy (Who?) is pushing like hell, but does she have people backing her to bring this home? I think the timing is off.
As an aside, the kind of hobbying I do involves escorts coming to my home. I am buying their time. We might decide to have sex. Unless she is trying to entrap me, where is my risk?
To Safesexsecure - I looked at your site, will probably fill out the questionaire. I like what you are doing. How is the response? Do you need more interviews?
If most of the street girls are driven inside, why are there still some girls outside? There must be some reason or advantage to working the street.
I think your assessment of the current status of the Conservative party and their stand-down strategy as the move toward the next election is probably quite accurate Staggerspool. It is unlikely that they will make quick moves to push things like the Nordic model or a strong anti-abortion platform through because doing so would push buttons that they don't want to push right now. To be honest, I am less concerned with the immediate strategy of the Conservatives or any other party than I am with the incremental shifts that I am seeing in Canada and internationally where conversations and mainstream media coverage about the commercial sex industry in general and prostitution in particular become conversations/stories about trafficking, human rights violations and violence. It is already becoming quite common to turn on the 6 o'clock news and see a story about a parlour or agency being raided, not under the guise of stopping prostitution but instead to combat 'human trafficking.'
While we have certainly seen the spectre of trafficking rhetoric relating to prostitution capture the social and political consciousness before (it was big at the turn of the 20th century with the 'white slave trade' rhetoric that united religious and women's groups), it just seems to be different this time. I haven't quite pinpointed what this difference is but I find it eerily similar to how the language of terrorism and the image of the 'terrorist' was used post-9-11 to push through policies and laws that undermine many rights and freedoms. In the trafficking rhetoric the 'terrorists' appear to be the 'pimps' and clients and the 'war' is to save exploited women and children.
You make a very good point that many hobbiests such as yourself deal with escort agencies or independent sex sellers, mostly on a one-on-one basis so the risk is minimized, even under the Nordic model. However, there are also many more hobbiests who are not as experienced or well informed about the industry and how to navigate commercial exchanges safely and securely. I spent a year and a half immersed in the Toronto John School and during that time I saw hundreds of guys come through the 'moral re-education program' who's only 'crime' was that they didn't know enough about the industry to be able to purchase sex in a way that didn't involve communicating in a public place. Many of the men that came through the program were racial and ethnic minorities and blue-collar workers.
Historically, when it comes to enforcing laws relating to prostitution much of the attention has been paid to curbing the most publicly visible forms (street-based). However, the widespread availability and affordability of technology such as cell phones and the Internet has resulted in the migration of people who at one time sold and purchased sex on the street into off-street spaces. So, outside of rural communities and small towns the street-based sex industry is considerably smaller than it once was and in the large urban centres many of the people working on the street are 'survival sex workers.' It is the conditions of the streets and the people who often work on the streets that lead many people outside and inside the sex industry to support abolishing the street-based sex trade.
While there is good probability that we will eventually see the street-based sex trade shrink to ~1% of the industry in Canada, the trafficking rhetoric is already being used to create a new sex industry 'ghetto' - the parlours and brothels. While the enforcement of current, and probably future, prostitution laws and regulations (Nordic model or not) is not likely to impact people who sell and purchase sex independently, it is likely that considerable attention from law enforcement will be directed towards the parlours and brothels. It wouldn't surprise me if the next wave of people who get forced through the "moral re-integrative shaming ritual" of John School are parlour and brothel clients. It would seem that one way to combat this possibility would be to present a wider range of stories/images about the sex industry, the people who work in it and the people who patronize it.
To Staggerspool: Thanks for taking the time to check out my research web site. I am glad that you appreciate what it is that I am trying to do with this project. While we are still in the early stages, so far the response to the research has been pretty good - very few nay-sayers and only one MOD on another board who decided he wanted to prevent board members from being able to decide for themselves if they wanted to participate. I am thankful and appreciative of the many sex industry professionals and patrons of the industry that have emailed or called me to tell me how much they appreciate the project and committed to spreading the word to their clients and communities. I have taken a different approach to 'advertising' the research than I did with the Johns' Voice project because I am deeply committed to getting the word out to as many people as possible and including as wide range of patrons of the industry as possible. What I found when I was reporting the results from Johns' Voice was that numbers matter both in the court of public opinion and in making convincing arguments to interest groups, politicians, policy makers and legislators. I find it fascinating that when it comes to accepting arguments that sex workers are 'victims' and that the sex industry is 'inherently violent' many people are willing to accept results from research involving samples of 20-40 street-based sex workers but when it comes to accepting stories about patrons of the industry only large numbers of voices will make a difference. So yes, I want to hear from everyone that wants to be heard. I will be keeping the research going until the end of the summer and I will be travelling across Canada to St. John's, Montreal, Toronto, Guelph, Fort McMurray, Edmonton, Prince George, and Victoria to get the word out on the streets and in the suites.
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Thanks for this, and for the work you are doing.
I have the same sort of suspicions/worries about incremental shifting of the discussion. I was until quite recently of the mind that "slippery slope" arguments were to be taken with a grain of salt, but watching the current federal government, I am now much more concerned - it really does seem to be the way they operate since they can't do what they want by explicit means. If an explicit agenda isn't possible, they will hide it in the guise of some sort of moral stand on some aspect tangential to the actual issue, such as the redifinition of the beginning of life and the problem of sex-selection abortion as trojan horse vehicles to deliver a restrictive abortion law. That hasn't worked yet, but it gives the social conservatives hope, and experience about what works and what doesn't.
Vic Toews and his internet surveillance fiasco likewise give them information on how NOT to proceed. One wonders if any in that crowd really learn from their mistakes, but the possibility exists. And while I don't think they have traction for any funny stuff immediately, that might change when the supreme court case is heard.
I will visit your web site again to fill out the questionaire, and am certainly interested in participating in an interview.
I think the article is also assuming a single-cause result. It notes that the streetwalkers are now largely eastern Baltic or generally foreigners, which calls into question how much effect the post-Cold War opening of borders has had.
Demographics, demographics, demographics. EE and Asian SPs, MPAs, and strippers have changed the landscape in Canada and the US. From my little hobbying in Europe, they've changed things there even more. Ignoring that effect is just silly.
Demographics, demographics, demographics. EE and Asian SPs, MPAs, and strippers have changed the landscape in Canada and the US. From my little hobbying in Europe, they've changed things there even more. Ignoring that effect is just silly.
Source: internet.I suspect you are not focusing on the fundamentals.
It is a paradigm shift. It is not a crime to sell yourself. The only crime is the 'client' paying for it. So stings are very easy and inexpensive to stage.
Especially the agency stings. They can make dozens of arrests in a single day. And they are easy to prosecute.
No I am not an expert. I was curious and checked.
Just to point out we're only cutting EI payments—just 27% of Ontario unemployed workers qualify under the latest rules—but Our Harper Government is still collecting every penny they ever did to fix their overall deficit in time for the next election. And to buy maybe …, a few warplanes we so desperately need.
Back to the topic. My questions would be how have the Swedes applied their law to the indoor trade which isn't as inherently exploitative and degrading as the street sex market, and how has this law been applied to male prostitution?
\But as for the street trade, Canada criminalized the johns quite some time ago.
In the police car, something happens which reveals the full extent of the philosophical shift that has affected men and women in Sweden. In a brightly lit street, Haggstrom points out a couple of Romanian women who work as prostitutes. As I think about them making the journey over the bridge with a total stranger to the desolate car park on Skeppsholmen, Haggstrom turns to me. "Having sex is not a human right," he says quietly
i disagree
sex is a very strong need and everyone has a right to it and if they need to purchase it then the have a right to do so whether they be male, gay or female
just another hate law against the human rights of people to pay for sex
exploited street walkers is a separate issue
i disagree
sex is a very strong need and everyone has a right to it and if they need to purchase it then the have a right to do so whether they be male, gay or female
just another hate law against the human rights of people to pay for sex
exploited street walkers is a separate issue
Arguable, sex is a human right. However, nobody has the right to exploit someone else (although our society allows economic exploitation). While it is debatable if higher class escorts are being exploited, most Terb members would say no, the case for exploitation is much easier to make for streetwalkers.
Sweden has fallen a long way in 315 years from when they were the bully boys of Northern Europe now they are the politically correct metrosexuals of Europe.
(As usual) You have it completely backwards. Today they are universally admired for being the most progressive country.
Ya sure, the US Republicans, to name just one, are just falling all over themselves gushing admiration for the high taxes and broad social support net in Sweden that makes it a model country.
