teachers strike?

[fuji]

Oh that 'law' which doesn't apply in employment? The flaw when applying it to employment is that as pay goes down, so does the incentive for strong candidates to apply.

It also assumes all employees are the same quality but they're not. Experience does count. Before my work schedule got in the way, I spent a good chunk of time coaching kids and although I entered it with a strong technical knowledge of the game, it took me a while to start understanding how to deal with kids with all sorts of backgrounds (and unlike teachers, I had the threat of benching them working in my favour - I feel sorry for teachers who have no effective threats). I would also have to be crazy to pay a fresh out of school engineer the same as one with experience until that new guy learned the specifics of the job and proved himself.

Yes, being able to get rid of bad teachers would be great but that has nothing to do with compensation.

Given that promotions are not merit based there is no reason to believe that higher teacher compensation is getting us better teachers. There is also no reason to believe this speculative benefit is worth more than smaller classes or more university spots.

If we had merit based compensation then it might be worth paying a premium for better teachers, but we don't have that, so it isn't. Even if we did no one had demonstrated that it is the best use of any extra education money.

 

[red]

the teachers are making the same mistake as the garbage workers in toronto did.

a provincial election is coming and it is likely that the conservatices will win.

 

[FAST]

Legal...yes...but

Citizens are free to find jobs with unions. Let's not act like it's a secret club that people are suddenly discovering. If you choose to not be part of a union that's your choice, don't blame people for having a union and using it.

Do citizens choose to not use everything at their advantage to protect themselves?

If they were doing something that was not within their rights then I'd be upset. But what they are doing is legal.

What I said was,...the usage of "workers rights" and "citizens" when union bosses are making their statements about UNION RIGHTS is categorically wrong !!!

I never said that Citizens are not free to find jobs with unions,...buts lets be realistic here, jobs are not easy to come by these days, so is some one going to decide to wait for a position to open up in a unionised employer,...I think not !!!

Yes,...what unions do is legal,... does NOT make it right to disrupt the general public.

The average individual does NOT have the opportunity to belong to a union, not that everybody wants or needs "protection".

The general public CANNOT get away with the stunts that unions pull when blocking people from going about their life, whether it be going to their job, or taking garbage to a dump, costing poor families money by refusing to do their job, possibly ruining a high school grads future,…etc.,etc., etc.

FAST

 

[GameBoy27]

I'm a freelancer.
No steady check or benefits for a long, long time.
But despite that I'm glad to hear that there are still jobs with benefits and decent pay. Trying to argue for others in the middle class to be paid less is never going to get me any more money, even if you think taxes might go down a hair, all its really doing is exerting more downward pressure on the middle class.

Private sector workers need to be reminded that they used to have benefits, unions and half decent wages.
Meanwhile Scotiabank declared a record profit this quarter.
Think that means better wages for their workers?

What does Scotiabank's profits have to do with teachers wages and benefits? Scotiabank isn't funded by every taxpayers in Ontario.

 

[scouser1]

Many get in the college with a 3 year BA & then get the Bachelor of Education degree (diploma)

nobody has called you out on this yet, but your ignorance is quite evident by this absolutely false statement, it takes 5 years to become a teacher, 4 year degree plus one year of teacher's college or a consecutive 5 year program. But you keep digging that hole with your nonsense.

 

[Toke]

nobody has called you out on this yet, but your ignorance is quite evident by this absolutely false statement, it takes 5 years to become a teacher, 4 year degree plus one year of teacher's college or a consecutive 5 year program. But you keep digging that hole with your nonsense.

Saw that. But coming from the guy with 'a teacher friend that told him', I figured his logic would have him believe what he hears, rather than fact.

 

[realthing69]

nobody has called you out on this yet, but your ignorance is quite evident by this absolutely false statement, it takes 5 years to become a teacher, 4 year degree plus one year of teacher's college or a consecutive 5 year program. But you keep digging that hole with your nonsense.

Isn't it possible to get a BA in 3 years? (I think I could have gotten my BA in 3 years but spaced it out to 4 unless the rules changed since the early 90's)

Or is it a special BA that requires 4 years?

 

[basketcase]

Given that promotions are not merit based there is no reason to believe that higher teacher compensation is getting us better teachers. There is also no reason to believe this speculative benefit is worth more than smaller classes or more university spots.

If we had merit based compensation then it might be worth paying a premium for better teachers, but we don't have that, so it isn't. Even if we did no one had demonstrated that it is the best use of any extra education money.

As usual you are focusing only on what you want to and ignore that the argument you are making doesn't agree with your thesis. The problem is the protection unions offer to incompetence, not the pay earned by good teachers.

 

[basketcase]

Isn't it possible to get a BA in 3 years? (I think I could have gotten my BA in 3 years but spaced it out to 4 unless the rules changed since the early 90's)

Or is it a special BA that requires 4 years?

There used to be something called an Honours Bachelor Degree which required 4 years verses the typical 3 but three year BAs disappeared long ago. I'm sure it's possible now to do a 4 year degree in 3 years but that would mean taking the additional credits at night or summer. Either way, it would be the the same amount of education, the same amount of courses (and likely the same tuition) so I don't see the relevance.

 

[fuji]

As usual you are focusing only on what you want to and ignore that the argument you are making doesn't agree with your thesis. The problem is the protection unions offer to incompetence, not the pay earned by good teachers.

In light of the union protections, over paying buys us nothing. Therefore we should stop the over payment.

Even if it did no one has advanced a serious argument that overpaying is the best use of money even if it was acquiring better teachers, which it isn't. Other education investments like smaller classes or more university spots might be a better use of the money.

No matter how you slice it the government has an obligation to roll back the overpayment.

 

[Toke]

There used to be something called an Honours Degree which required 4 years verses the typical 3 but that disappeared long ago. I'm sure it's possible now to do a 4 year degree in 3 years but that would mean taking the additional credits at night or summer. Either way, it would be the the same amount of education, the same amount of courses (and likely the same tuition) so I don't see the relevance.

The Honours Degree still exists over a typical four year period, but can be completed in any amount of time (it's based on accumulated credits). A '3 year' degree also exists, but is rare that a student would opt for it given the difference in opportunity. Teacher's College is a one year Bachelor or 2 year Master Degree.

Not that any of that is the central issue at hand, besides the question as to how much should a well-educated professional make. fuji keeps falling back on an economic theory that, while relevant, he only applies it in its most basic form. He does so because even the a little more of an in-depth application would make it useless to the argument.

 

[JohnLarue]

nobody has called you out on this yet, but your ignorance is quite evident by this absolutely false statement, it takes 5 years to become a teacher, 4 year degree plus one year of teacher's college or a consecutive 5 year program. But you keep digging that hole with your nonsense.

http://www.oct.ca/~/link.aspx?_id=25CD74DDD6A14F3BA968490666FB1733&_z=zRequirements

To teach in Ontario’s publicly funded schools, a teacher must be certified by the Ontario College of Teachers. Certified teachers pay an annual membership fee to maintain their membership and certification.

To be certified, teachers must:

•have completed a minimum three-year postsecondary degree from an acceptable postsecondary institution
•have successfully completed a one-year acceptable teacher education program
•apply to the College for certification and pay the annual membership and registration fees. Application process includes providing proof of identity and a Canadian Criminal Record Check Report.


So who is ignorant now ?

No need to apologize, I understand people sometimes interpret what they hear as fact.

 

[JohnLarue]

Saw that. But coming from the guy with 'a teacher friend that told him', I figured his logic would have him believe what he hears, rather than fact.

I guess you prefer to beleive what you want rather than checking the facts.

 

[Toke]

I guess you prefer to beleive what you want rather than checking the facts.

What was your point of adding they 'only' had a three-year degree?? Not to mention the that you stated that 'many' get in with a 3 year undergrad as fact.

 

[frankcastle]

In light of the union protections, over paying buys us nothing. Therefore we should stop the over payment.

Even if it did no one has advanced a serious argument that overpaying is the best use of money even if it was acquiring better teachers, which it isn't. Other education investments like smaller classes or more university spots might be a better use of the money.

No matter how you slice it the government has an obligation to roll back the overpayment.

I submitted the US education system for the effects of underfunding..... but that seems to be largely ignored.

Our kids are perenial top 10s in math science and reading while the US is lucky to get 15th overall and ofen hovers around 20th to 24th. Think the test is called PISA

 

[frankcastle]

http://www.oct.ca/~/link.aspx?_id=25CD74DDD6A14F3BA968490666FB1733&_z=zRequirements

To teach in Ontario’s publicly funded schools, a teacher must be certified by the Ontario College of Teachers. Certified teachers pay an annual membership fee to maintain their membership and certification.

To be certified, teachers must:

•have completed a minimum three-year postsecondary degree from an acceptable postsecondary institution
•have successfully completed a one-year acceptable teacher education program
•apply to the College for certification and pay the annual membership and registration fees. Application process includes providing proof of identity and a Canadian Criminal Record Check Report.


So who is ignorant now ?

No need to apologize, I understand people sometimes interpret what they hear as fact.

Don't bother with an apology guys he consistantly ignores when his "facts" from his "friend" are pointed out as false.

He also accuses you guys of interpreting what you hear as fact..... exactly what he is doing with the conversation with his "friend"

If I were to pick at what he said.... I challenge him to prove that most have a 3 year degree.

He also missed that while those are the min reqs of the OCT you also need certain courses/number of credits in a subject area to be able to apply to a teacher's college to be certified to teach it in high school.

 

[frankcastle]

This week, new statistics show that students got the message. The Ontario University Application Centre reports that provincial teacher’s colleges received 8.9 per cent fewer applicants in 2012.

Some schools saw huge declines. Nipissing University in North Bay, Ont. got 15.8 per cent fewer applications. Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ont. got 21.5 per cent fewer applications.

In fact, the total number of applicants—9,311—is only slightly higher than the new cap. But it’s 72 per cent lower than the number of applicants five years ago—in 2007 when there were 16,042.

http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2012/01/24/teachers-college-applications-plummet/

Huh what do ya know applicant numbers are going down..... salary is a moot point if you have to pay 7.8K to go to U of T and graduate with terrible job prospects

Teachers from that boom of 5 years ago should not be allowed to teach as they probably applied for the wrong reasons. Keep the experienced teachers who started before the boom of the last 10 years in salary.

 

[JohnLarue]

What was your point of adding they 'only' had a three-year degree?? Not to mention the that you stated that 'many' get in with a 3 year undergrad as fact.

WTF
The point is that several people here have tried to paint teachers as educated well over and above the average professional and over and above the average taxpayer in order to try and justify the ridiculous excess teachers are compensated above both the average professional and average taxpayer.

While I do not have stats which breakdown teachers credentials by undergrad & 3 vs, 4 year degree, it is clear that the criteria is not as stringent for acceptance as the propaganda would have us believe

FYI
I know there are many people who opted for the 3 year program to quickly gain entrance to Teachers college when I went to university & those wassails will still be in the teachers system (collecting in excess of 83K for 9 1/2 months work)

The real issue is can the Province afford to compensate this group at the current level
The answer is no

 

[JackBurton]

Please spare us. With a minimum of 5 yrs of post secondary education and countless summer classes to upgrade their skills, teachers still make less than a parking ticket cop: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...oronto-drivers-nearly-4-million-in-five-years

Perspective - now you have it

 

[red]

Please spare us. With a minimum of 5 yrs of post secondary education and countless summer classes to upgrade their skills, teachers still make less than a parking ticket cop: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...oronto-drivers-nearly-4-million-in-five-years

Perspective - now you have it

the ticket guy is over paid too. though at least he is working six days a week with no summers off and generating a million dollars a year