Teachers to Boycott After School Programs

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
17,879
242
63
Moving back to the main premise of the boycotting the after school programs. It would be reasonable IF non teachers were allowed to step in and do the coaching etc. But no, you have to have a teacher present which means that they are acting more like a dog in the manger. I suspect part of the issue for the school boards is the liability insurance, however when you structure a system that some paid employees must volunteer to coach or lead school clubs the expectation is that they volunteer there time as part of their duties.

Personally, the school boards might want to consider having all the extra curricular activities done by true volunteers perhaps by doing low cost leasing of their gyms, playing fields and the classrooms with true volunteers running the programs. That also put the onus on the parents and the community to step up and take responsibility for their child's activities. I understand in some places in the US, schools are a municipal asset rented by the boards but the community uses the schools or parts of the schools in the off hours.

It has irritated me for years that school gyms are empty most weekends or the cost of rental is prohibitive. Surely there is another way that we can structure the non school activities without the requirement of teachers being part of the equation. This doesn't mean that they can not volunteer, just like people who do so for summer soccer programs, hockey, etc but this would not be a bargaining chip for wage protests. It also means that some of the things that we take for granted that teachers provide now is the community/parents responsibility. Frankly, being a volunteer coach in the past, I see no reason why we can't give the kids the post school activities. It takes the will to do it by the Boards and the parents. It may even mean that similar to the good Samaritan laws, we will need to revisit how we establish liability for injuries and damage.

There is no need to beat up the teachers for having effective bargaining, although perhaps if we paid more attention at voting time we might have Board Members and MPPs that were willing to live with strikes and not back down instead of relying on Governments to legislate what we are collectively to afraid to deal with in the bargaining process. I know some wonderful committed teachers and some paycheck collectors. I would not choose to be a teacher and deal with the crap from inside the system and the children and their parents. I would happily coach certain sports and activities. It has been my fortune to be invited to speak to classes in my area of expertise. It is fun and challenging. Many employers would be thrilled to have their employees participate any of those activities for the benefit of the community. It helps to make the employers look good.

This is Ontario's opportunity to restructure how we deliver activities to our young. There are lots of excuses why we are not likely to see any action. It appears likely that communities would rather bitch than create solutions, especially ones that mean giving up power (a teacher must be present to use our facilities) and others must actually give back to the community by volunteering.
Actually many schools rent out space and it is not expensive. You have things ranging from cultural classes, rep sports, rec sports. I've seen it on weekends and fridays when I pass schools.

I think the having a teacher present is more of a cover your ass thing so that if things go wrong there's an extra safety net. I think finding consistant community coaches is tough as you have to be available after school and most people work till 5. Those that really want to coach will find community teams that work with their schedule rather than alter their schedule to coach.
 

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
17,879
242
63
In general people talk a good game but get someone to volunteer for small things like bringing coffee to a meeting is tough enough. Now you want to find enough people to volunteer to commit to coaching? I could see it if their kid is on the team but what happens when the kid moves on?

Don't forget high school games don't all occur after school so you have to have a flexible enough schedule that you could go to games during the day. Again another hurdle.

Probably why people who want to coach find their way to rep or house league type situations.
 

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
17,879
242
63
http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/about_us/permits/docs/G02 CUS fee schedule 2012-2013.pdf

here are costs to rent a caf, classroom, gym

$7 with subsidies to $47 to rent a double gym for an hour. Play basketball with 5 on 5 with no subs and that would be 70 cents to $4.70 an hour. Single gym is half that price. And a baskeltball game would typically involve two teams of 10 so the cost per person for a single gym would be a little over a buck an hour per person. So $2 per week x 52 weeks would be $104 per person to have a gym for two hours a week for a year.

Classrooms range from $1 with subsidies to $12 with no subsidies per hour and you could have 20 to 30 people in the room.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
3,183
0
0
Excessive teachers’ wages a boondoggle we can’t ignore

Which group of 70,000 Ontario civil servants is paid slightly more than $78 per hour?

To put it in perspective, the average Canadian aerospace engineer earns about half of this, at $40 per hour; veterinarians $38; civil engineers $37; HR specialists $28; Web designers and developers $25; and journalists, I am afraid to say, just $24, less than one-third of this group.

So which group of public employees must Ontario taxpayers be so generous toward?

Let me provide some hints. Relative to these earnings, this position requires modest education, limited qualifications, there is relatively weak competition to obtain entrance, it has limited barriers to entry and its members enjoy an unparalleled lifestyle (even apart from their wages).

The answer: teachers.



My figure is based upon information provided by the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario as to the required minimum days worked per year, hours per day and average annual remuneration. Elementary teachers make up more than 70,000 of the 114,000 teachers. The rest are secondary school teachers, whose average hourly wage for the time they are required to work, based on more limited information from the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation, is the still surprisingly high sum of $68.73.


Teachers may protest that they work much longer hours than what is required by their collective agreements. That is undoubtedly true for many. But employees in other vocations similarly take work home. And, in terms of the necessity to perform additional work, preparation time is already negotiated into teachers’ collective agreements as part of their required minimum work day.

The point is that teachers, like other civil servants, are not required to work longer than the amounts negotiated for them by their unions. Once they have taught the same courses for a certain number of years, many likely feel no need to, particularly since their collective agreements make it virtually impossible to fire them for weak pedagogical skills.

Although I note a simple hourly wage of $78, teachers’ real wages are much higher. First, there are the gold-plated civil service benefits. Then the sick days they can accumulate and be paid out for up to six months wages. But most important, after a combination of age and years of service totalling 85, teachers as early as 55 can retire and be paid 60% of their salary for life. And they can earn this while working somewhere else.

This makes their effective hourly rate exceed $100 per hour. No such luck for aerospace engineers (or journalists).



You may think it a brazen display of chutzpah for a lawyer to be talking about anyone else’s excessive hourly wages. But let’s look at my profession. A mid-level downtown Toronto lawyer may charge $450 per hour but, as a rule of thumb, has to work close to two hours for every hour docketed. That’s why Bay Street firms may expect their juniors to work 70 hour weeks but have weekly docketing goals of only 35 hours. (Most employers in my profession who tout work-life balance in their recruitment are being disingenuous.)

That knocks the $450 rate down to an effective $225, but out of that $225 lawyers must pay for receptionists, law clerks, legal secretaries, office space, expensive equipment, etc. They are required by the Law Society to take courses each year to upgrade their skills. Unlike teachers, they do so on their own unpaid time. They also have to find additional time to secure and retain clients and incur entrepreneurial risk, particularly in difficult times. Many Ontario lawyers take home less than $50,000 per year. They also have no pension.

Teachers are employees and have neither expenses nor the risk of not being paid. I hardly need add that lawyers have several additional years of more rigorous education before they earn anything and dramatically tougher entrance requirements.

Extrapolating $78 dollars per hour to a 40-hour work amounts to a salary of $162,240 per annum. With the additional amount represented by the value of the 60% lifetime pension, it would be more than $200,000.

How would you compare the qualifications and accomplishments of the average Ontarian with that income relative to the average Ontario teacher? Should equally qualified taxpayers be paying teachers vastly more than they earn themselves?

Teachers’ earnings are a telling commentary on the anti-competitive role of governments and unions. In a free enterprise society, one would think this combination of wages and lifestyle would attract among the best and the brightest. Instead, parents who can afford it (and many who really can’t) are vacating the school system in droves, paying upwards of $29,000 per year, per child, to send their children to private schools where the teachers often don’t earn as much as those in public schools. Obviously, private schools have to do a much better job to attract students who could go to the public school system, usually closer to their homes, for free. But few private school teachers are unionized and teachers will be fired if they do not perform.

Hand it to the unions, particularly in the public sector. They have negotiated wages, benefits and pensions for this group vastly in excess of their qualifications. There may be many great teachers. But should they be paid $78 per hour?

Premier Dalton McGuinty is trying to freeze Ontario teachers’ wages because the province cannot afford this continued boondoggle. Taxpayers should be jumping on board.

The most meaningful way to reduce taxes is to equalize the wages of our civil servants with comparably qualified private sector employees. Although there has been much talk of this, the battle has not yet been joined. Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said he would do that, but when the union offered to take a three-year wage freeze, instead of agreeing to or asking for actual cuts, he responded with a generous increase over four years.

Premier McGuinty is promising to take on the public sector unions. Perhaps this needed battle will finally be joined.

Howard Levitt is senior partner of Levitt LLP, employment and labour lawyers. He practises employment law in eight provinces and is author of The Law of Hiring in Canada.

http://business.financialpost.com/2...achers-wages-are-a-boondoggle-we-cant-afford/
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,910
2,925
113
Excessive teachers’ wages a boondoggle we can’t ignore

Which group of 70,000 Ontario civil servants is paid slightly more than $78 per hour?

To put it in perspective, the average Canadian aerospace engineer earns about half of this, at $40 per hour; veterinarians $38; civil engineers $37; HR specialists $28; Web designers and developers $25; and journalists, I am afraid to say, just $24, less than one-third of this group...
After reading that, it makes one wonder how teachers can complain about the 1% make all the money while 99% are suffering. Sure doesn't sound like 99% of teacher are suffering. Of course their wages are paid by the taxpayers who for the most part make far less than they do.

Can you imagine how much money there would be for schools and students if teachers were paid something a little closer to that of people in the private sector? I don't think that's asking too much. After all, the teachers keep telling us "it's all about the kids".
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,069
1
0
Another reality

After reading that, it makes one wonder how teachers can complain about the 1% make all the money while 99% are suffering. Sure doesn't sound like 99% of teacher are suffering. Of course their wages are paid by the taxpayers who for the most part make far less than they do.

Can you imagine how much money there would be for schools and students if teachers were paid something a little closer to that of people in the private sector? I don't think that's asking too much. After all, the teachers keep telling us "it's all about the kids".
In an effort to educate their students, I have two confirmed reports of teachers rambling on to grade school children during class about how they are being treated unfairly be the government.

Of coarse they can get away with this, as it is impossible to fire them.

Just continues to show how arrogant and privileged this people are !!!

FAST
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
62,049
6,872
113
...
Can you imagine how much money there would be for schools and students if teachers were paid something a little closer to that of people in the private sector? I don't think that's asking too much. After all, the teachers keep telling us "it's all about the kids".
And what kind of pay would private sector teachers get?

Private school teachers get paid along the same lines as public teachers. Maybe the next most comparable job is corporate trainers from a quick look on google, they average $60,000 - the same range as Ontario teachers plus they deal with employed adults who get fired if they don't listen, not kids who face no consequences.
 

OddSox

Active member
May 3, 2006
3,148
2
36
Ottawa
And what kind of pay would private sector teachers get?

Private school teachers get paid along the same lines as public teachers. Maybe the next most comparable job is corporate trainers from a quick look on google, they average $60,000 - the same range as Ontario teachers plus they deal with employed adults who get fired if they don't listen, not kids who face no consequences.
$60,000 for 50 hours weeks x 48 weeks a year. Not the same thing at all.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
3,183
0
0
And what kind of pay would private sector teachers get?

Private school teachers get paid along the same lines as public teachers.
A paragraph from the article posted above your post:

"Teachers’ earnings are a telling commentary on the anti-competitive role of governments and unions. In a free enterprise society, one would think this combination of wages and lifestyle would attract among the best and the brightest. Instead, parents who can afford it (and many who really can’t) are vacating the school system in droves, paying upwards of $29,000 per year, per child, to send their children to private schools where the teachers often don’t earn as much as those in public schools. Obviously, private schools have to do a much better job to attract students who could go to the public school system, usually closer to their homes, for free. But few private school teachers are unionized and teachers will be fired if they do not perform."
 

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
17,879
242
63
$60,000 for 50 hours weeks x 48 weeks a year. Not the same thing at all.
Actually the school year for many private schools are shorter.... 2 weeks at xmas and start summer break part way through june.

Not sure how you arrive at 50 h per week as that averages 10 h days. How does that work?

Also, class sizes are usually smaller in private schools.

PArents pay anywhere from 15 to 30K to send their kid to private school. How much does the avearge tax payer pay?

As for who else makes similar money? Cops and firefighters..... you could even say some firefighters get paid to sleep at the firehouse or that some cops just sit in their car.

Some doctors do less and are paid on aveerage 4x the average.

Anyways, yeah they all have it good.

But I think the real problem is that people are all riled up on the education thing but there's gross waste everywhere. I still can't figure out why a cop has to stand by a construction site that is clearly marked and cordoned off. Or why is there no backlash for the millions wasted on changing the site of that energy plant. etc etc
 

KBear

Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2001
4,169
1
38
west end
www.gtagirls.com
In an effort to educate their students, I have two confirmed reports of teachers rambling on to grade school children during class about how they are being treated unfairly be the government.
Wonder what would happen to a student being lectured if they spoke up and asked how public school teachers can justify being paid 2-3x more, with benefits and pension, what they would be making in the private sector.
 

toppower

New member
Jan 28, 2006
6
0
1
Excessive teachers’ wages a boondoggle we can’t ignore

Which group of 70,000 Ontario civil servants is paid slightly more than $78 per hour?

To put it in perspective, the average Canadian aerospace engineer earns about half of this, at $40 per hour; veterinarians $38; civil engineers $37; HR specialists $28; Web designers and developers $25; and journalists, I am afraid to say, just $24, less than one-third of this group.

So which group of public employees must Ontario taxpayers be so generous toward?

Let me provide some hints. Relative to these earnings, this position requires modest education, limited qualifications, there is relatively weak competition to obtain entrance, it has limited barriers to entry and its members enjoy an unparalleled lifestyle (even apart from their wages).

The answer: teachers.



My figure is based upon information provided by the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario as to the required minimum days worked per year, hours per day and average annual remuneration. Elementary teachers make up more than 70,000 of the 114,000 teachers. The rest are secondary school teachers, whose average hourly wage for the time they are required to work, based on more limited information from the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation, is the still surprisingly high sum of $68.73.


Teachers may protest that they work much longer hours than what is required by their collective agreements. That is undoubtedly true for many. But employees in other vocations similarly take work home. And, in terms of the necessity to perform additional work, preparation time is already negotiated into teachers’ collective agreements as part of their required minimum work day.

The point is that teachers, like other civil servants, are not required to work longer than the amounts negotiated for them by their unions. Once they have taught the same courses for a certain number of years, many likely feel no need to, particularly since their collective agreements make it virtually impossible to fire them for weak pedagogical skills.

Although I note a simple hourly wage of $78, teachers’ real wages are much higher. First, there are the gold-plated civil service benefits. Then the sick days they can accumulate and be paid out for up to six months wages. But most important, after a combination of age and years of service totalling 85, teachers as early as 55 can retire and be paid 60% of their salary for life. And they can earn this while working somewhere else.

This makes their effective hourly rate exceed $100 per hour. No such luck for aerospace engineers (or journalists).



You may think it a brazen display of chutzpah for a lawyer to be talking about anyone else’s excessive hourly wages. But let’s look at my profession. A mid-level downtown Toronto lawyer may charge $450 per hour but, as a rule of thumb, has to work close to two hours for every hour docketed. That’s why Bay Street firms may expect their juniors to work 70 hour weeks but have weekly docketing goals of only 35 hours. (Most employers in my profession who tout work-life balance in their recruitment are being disingenuous.)

That knocks the $450 rate down to an effective $225, but out of that $225 lawyers must pay for receptionists, law clerks, legal secretaries, office space, expensive equipment, etc. They are required by the Law Society to take courses each year to upgrade their skills. Unlike teachers, they do so on their own unpaid time. They also have to find additional time to secure and retain clients and incur entrepreneurial risk, particularly in difficult times. Many Ontario lawyers take home less than $50,000 per year. They also have no pension.

Teachers are employees and have neither expenses nor the risk of not being paid. I hardly need add that lawyers have several additional years of more rigorous education before they earn anything and dramatically tougher entrance requirements.

Extrapolating $78 dollars per hour to a 40-hour work amounts to a salary of $162,240 per annum. With the additional amount represented by the value of the 60% lifetime pension, it would be more than $200,000.

How would you compare the qualifications and accomplishments of the average Ontarian with that income relative to the average Ontario teacher? Should equally qualified taxpayers be paying teachers vastly more than they earn themselves?

Teachers’ earnings are a telling commentary on the anti-competitive role of governments and unions. In a free enterprise society, one would think this combination of wages and lifestyle would attract among the best and the brightest. Instead, parents who can afford it (and many who really can’t) are vacating the school system in droves, paying upwards of $29,000 per year, per child, to send their children to private schools where the teachers often don’t earn as much as those in public schools. Obviously, private schools have to do a much better job to attract students who could go to the public school system, usually closer to their homes, for free. But few private school teachers are unionized and teachers will be fired if they do not perform.

Hand it to the unions, particularly in the public sector. They have negotiated wages, benefits and pensions for this group vastly in excess of their qualifications. There may be many great teachers. But should they be paid $78 per hour?

Premier Dalton McGuinty is trying to freeze Ontario teachers’ wages because the province cannot afford this continued boondoggle. Taxpayers should be jumping on board.

The most meaningful way to reduce taxes is to equalize the wages of our civil servants with comparably qualified private sector employees. Although there has been much talk of this, the battle has not yet been joined. Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said he would do that, but when the union offered to take a three-year wage freeze, instead of agreeing to or asking for actual cuts, he responded with a generous increase over four years.

Premier McGuinty is promising to take on the public sector unions. Perhaps this needed battle will finally be joined.

Howard Levitt is senior partner of Levitt LLP, employment and labour lawyers. He practises employment law in eight provinces and is author of The Law of Hiring in Canada.

http://business.financialpost.com/2...achers-wages-are-a-boondoggle-we-cant-afford/

WOW....careful what you read !!!!

Thats total bull shit!!! $68/hr

If you read the article carefully. The reporter states right near the end of his article that the number is "based on more limited information"

I'd like to know how he came up with his calculations. His $68/hr is more of a "lets get more people to read my article "
 

toppower

New member
Jan 28, 2006
6
0
1
PS. no..... I am not a Teacher and you could never pay me enough to spend a whole day in a classroom with 28 kids. I don't mind my tax paying dollars going towards over paid teachers. Its better then wasting it on bull shit like "E-health Scandels" and "Orang"
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,069
1
0
Not

Wonder what would happen to a student being lectured if they spoke up and asked how public school teachers can justify being paid 2-3x more, with benefits and pension, what they would be making in the private sector.
A really great report card maybe ?

FAST
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,069
1
0
The source

WOW....careful what you read !!!!

Thats total bull shit!!! $68/hr

If you read the article carefully. The reporter states right near the end of his article that the number is "based on more limited information"

I'd like to know how he came up with his calculations. His $68/hr is more of a "lets get more people to read my article "
from the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation, is the still surprisingly high sum of $68.73.

FAST
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
12,910
2,925
113
But I think the real problem is that people are all riled up on the education thing but there`s gross waste everywhere. I still can`t figure out why a cop has to stand by a construction site that is clearly marked and cordoned off. Or why is there no backlash for the millions wasted on changing the site of that energy plant. etc etc
There is a thread on this, and yes that`s a gross waste of taxpayers money.

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?401936-Where-is-the-Outrage-Liberal-s-pissing-away-our-Money!
 

iamfm

New member
Oct 11, 2004
39
0
0
In my experience (and yes i'm not a strong supporter of the union movement at this time in our world) the people who suppoort the teachers are either married to one, are one or are the parents of 1). They are still negotiating like it's the 60's and do have it pretty good based on their hours of work compared to a salaried employee in private business or even a factory worker trying to get ahead by working double shifts. I'm tired of hearing on the news that the teachers voted 95% in favour of a 'virtual' strike. If that's the case, perhaps the government should pull a Reagan as he did with the air traffic controllers and lay them all off and replace teachers who don't want to work with the umpteen thousands of supply teachers that are lucky to get a class a month and would jump at the chance to teach full time. If they did that they would be at least 95% correct in their action according to news out of the union press. It's simply a case of supply and demand. Over supply of teachers and a steady demand for teachers. Price should come down in a free trade world.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
3,183
0
0
^^^

Same story with the wives and parents of firefighters and cops. They'll defend pay increases infinitely because their job is so dangerous and we'd be living in chaos without them. They're such heroes. These people need to learn their place in the pecking order of things and shut up.
 

buckwheat1

New member
Nov 20, 2006
1,064
0
0
ALL teachers unions will except a 2 year freeze, one actually took a 1.5% reduction over two years (OECTA). Teachers only get 3 weeks vacation and get paid for 193 days of work a year. Teachers get 5 PD days or NI days and any profeesionl group gets. Teachers DO NOT collect EI during the summer months. as it's illegal to do so. There pension they pay like 12.5% of salary into their pensions. OPSEU also offered two year freeze and the government refused to sign, it's more then about a freeze fro two years.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts