Teachers to Boycott After School Programs

[frankcastle]

Proof of the rate for private lessons.

http://cosmomusic.ca/school-of-music/private-lessons

That's just one place

Other place I found charges $475 for the first 13 lessons and $50 for each addition 50 min private lesson.


take a look at homestars.ca for handymen who charge $65/h

 

[frankcastle]

John,

your challenge is stupid as if you ask anybody to apply for a job outside of their specialized skill set and expect them to make the same it's unrealistic.

Sure a stock broker could change firms or a mechanic could switch shoops but that's really just doing the same job.

A dr can't make 350K outside of practicing medicine. Unless they are consulting and typically consultants are brought in for finite periods. And again that's within their field.

 

[frankcastle]

Hah gotcha!

http://www.dialogueonline.ca/private-school-teacher-salaries/3462/

Teacher's could apply for jobs at private schools and do pretty well. As long as it is not one of the religious private scholls and they apply for things like St Adrew's College. That's private sector. Heck if they teach a hard to find subject like physics and they do well on the performance scale they could do even better.

 

[canuck99]

Typically the costs of playing in school team is cheaper. For example, you don't have to rent a soccer field if you have one. So I think there is value in sports in school as it's good for the kids socially and great for kids who can't afford sports outside of school. Plus what if your parents don't have the time or means to cart you around to all your games?

-Kids can participate in community sports for free if in financial need.
-yes good for the kids socially so get volunteers to coach just like the community sports do. Doesn't have to be teachers.
-Transportation is a problem for school sports also.

I would rather have teachers concentrate on teaching.
I can't think of another job where volunteering is considered to be part of the job.

Are nurses expected to volunteer to run activities for their patients after their shifts are over?
Are firefighters expected to volunteer to run fire prevention activities after their shifts are over?
Are police officers expected to volunteer to teach crime prevention after their shifts are over?
are govt bureaucrats expected to volunteer to organize foodbank donation drives after their shifts are over?

Just do your jobs well and volunteer if you want to.

 

[probyn]

Hi FatOne,

People who work in stressful jobs do tend to die shortly after retirement if they retire in their 60s.

Read On:



, here is my original post:

Possibly a depressing one this week, but then again, you need to know!

Key facts: (and these apply only from people retiring from stressful jobs):

For people retired at the age of 50, their average life span is 86;
whereas for people retired at the age of 65, their average life span is only 66.8.

For every year one works beyond age 55, one loses 2 years of life span on average.

The Boeing experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 18 months, on average, prior to death. Similarly, the Lockheed experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 17 months, on average, prior to death. I have heard the same figures for UK teachers (the article was in the Guardian, so it must be true…)

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/age-65-rule/10264-life-span-vs-retirement-age.html

retire die left

49.9…….86………36.1
51.2…….85.3…….34.1
52.5…….84.6…….32.1
53.8…….83.9…….30.1
55.1…….83.2…….28.1
56.4…….82.5…….26.1
57.2…….81.4…….24.2
58.3…….80………21.7
59.2…….78.5…….19.3
60.1…….76.8…….16.7
61………74.5…….13.5
62.1…….71.8…….9.7
63.1…….69.3…….6.2
64.1…….67.9…….3.8
65.2…….66.8…….1.6

See also http://www.buzzle.com/articles/retirement-age-and-life-expectancy.html

The moral is that if you’re able to retire early, even if the financial deal isn’t great, take it!

So if you’d rather be in denial then sorry I told you about this, but I do hope it helps you make informed decisions – apart from anything, to avoid stress if you can (…if only!)

Onwards and Outward

 

[FAST]

Volunteers

I have no idea what your point is FAST. I'm just saying for Ontario Public and Separate school sports and extracurriculars, a teacher must be on the sidelines.
I am a coach. I've been on many a sporting field.

Do you get paid, or volunteer ?


FAST

 

[PussyHunter]

I have teachers in my family and most will tell you they do have it easy. Not that they don't work but they enjoy what they do, that's the difference. Their students remember them for their efforts.
On the other hand you do find a lot of teachers who got into the field for the pay, benefits and vacation. Those are the teachers that no one remembers from school. Watch the parking lot at any school and see how fast some of these teachers are out the door. That is this group!

I do find it strange though on the part of the teachers union when they state that they are "Doing this for the children" First thing they do is with hold extra curricular activities. Wow that's really giving it to the government. Don't know how they will get over that. If they were actually looking out for the kids they wouldn't be screwing them.

While I'm not a big fan of McGuinty an argument can be made for their statement that they are "Doing this for the children". By getting their spending under control they are helping to prevent our kids from having to pay for it for the rest of their working lives.

 

[frankcastle]

Hey JL,

If a teacher wants to leave teaching they could go join teh CAW

Currently the average pay is $38/h.... starting pay is probably going down to $24/h and it will take 10 instead of 6 years to max out. Pension after 30 years.

Sounds pretty good to me. They say that the current worth of a CAW if you factor in benefits and what not goes up to $60/h but that's cash + benefits + pension + overtime.

Not it's not 90K but 78K with a pension after 30 years and benefits sounds alright. That's assuming a 40h work week so who knows maybe it's more if they work longer or maybe shorter.

But if you look at it as $60/h that has a value of 128K mind you all calculations assume 52 weeks of work. Or about 98K value if they work for 10 months. Not as good as a teacher but not too shabby at all.



BTW found these on an article at the yahoo homepage so feel free to read for yourself.

 

[frankcastle]

Anyways, off the top of my head I can't think of a job in the private sector that a teacher could transition over to and make the same but

private school teacher,
auto plant worker
private music teacher
handyman
and SP

are just a few that come close. So your 1/1000 theory doesn't hold water. And that's not even addressing the unrealistic expectation of taking a max teacher's pay and expecting that they or any profession can take their max pay and expect to find it in another sector/field.

 

[JohnLarue]

And that's not even addressing the unrealistic expectation of taking a max teacher's pay and expecting that they or any profession can take their max pay and expect to find it in another sector/field.

That is my point
The deal teacher have right now can not be replaced , so it is best they do not take it for granted as an entitlement.
Unfortunately they do.

The supply of people interested in a teaching career and the inability to replicate their salary elsewhere should make for a far more accommodating group, when it comes to negotiating some relief for the province

Sadly both you and teachers as a group choose to ignore this logic
Well there will be a tipping point down the road and it will mean layoffs and impacts to the students. The concession of some obvious and glaringly excessive benefits at this point in time could possibly avert such a disaster.

The CAW had similar choices a decade ago and chose to bleed the big three dry, rather than participate in profit sharing
The have watched in horror as the industry shrank by a third
Perhaps the profit sharing would have been wiped out in 2008 , however billions in saved comp and benefits would have made the big 3 far more competitive and financially healthy
I guess we will never know

Teachers would be well advised to look to this as an example of what can happen if you suck the tit dry

 

[JohnLarue]

Hey JL,

If a teacher wants to leave teaching they could go join teh CAW

Currently the average pay is $38/h.... starting pay is probably going down to $24/h and it will take 10 instead of 6 years to max out. Pension after 30 years.

Sounds pretty good to me. They say that the current worth of a CAW if you factor in benefits and what not goes up to $60/h but that's cash + benefits + pension + overtime.

Not it's not 90K but 78K with a pension after 30 years and benefits sounds alright. That's assuming a 40h work week so who knows maybe it's more if they work longer or maybe shorter.

But if you look at it as $60/h that has a value of 128K mind you all calculations assume 52 weeks of work. Or about 98K value if they work for 10 months. Not as good as a teacher but not too shabby at all.



BTW found these on an article at the yahoo homepage so feel free to read for yourself.

Are ther any opeings at the auto makers?
Last I heard they were still shedding jobs like a dog with fleas
That is a sunset industry ..... not a good choice at all
besides the CAW chosse to screw over new members to line the pockets of the veterns.
You might start in the mid $20 -30/ hr

 

[JohnLarue]

I can tell you that there are piano teachers that charge 25 to 50 for a half hour lesson.... you can find cheaper as well. But if you want Royal conservatory testing and what not that's what you will likely pay in the GTA for 30 min.

Tech guys could charge 60 to 65 as a handy man.... again i am quoting prices found online.... in fact I hired a guy for that.

Of course there's the issue of job security and that's why some choose teaching instead.

Good luck selling enough hours to make up 90K
You are dreaming
Ask any self-employed person.
They spend more than 1/2 their time selling their work
So to sell 2000 hours in a year they need to put in 60-80 hours per week, more in the beginning
And if you can not sell, you starve

Do you know many super salesperson / piano teachers?
Please face some facts here Frank, Teacher would be hard pressed just to survive if they were cut loose form the provinces payroll, so it is best they be a little more accommodating

 

[JohnLarue]

Great pay freeze and keep the benefits that have been there for over 2 decades.

That solves nothing
NIce try

 

[frankcastle]

Good luck selling enough hours to make up 90K
You are dreaming
Ask any self-employed person.
They spend more than 1/2 their time selling their work
So to sell 2000 hours in a year they need to put in 60-80 hours per week, more in the beginning
And if you can not sell, you starve

Do you know many super salesperson / piano teachers?
Please face some facts here Frank, Teacher would be hard pressed just to survive if they were cut loose form the provinces payroll, so it is best they be a little more accommodating

The point is that one COULD earn 90K that's what we were talking about. Not suggesting that each piano or handyman would be equally successful.

My buddy has been doing a ton of renos and he's found the hardest part of getting things done was coordinating windows for people to come in as they are so busy.....granted some a licenced trades like plumbers, electricians but even the dry wallers and floor installation and painters were booked solid.

 

[frankcastle]

Agreed CAW is a dying industry but your challenge was about salary and not longevity.

Anyways, we're just going round and round on semantics. We both agree on cuts. We just disagree on perceptions of teachers and their ability to earn similar pay elsewhere.

Your perception is that it's all about money and zero interest in the kids. My take is that it's about principles..... teachers are fighting because
1) they have to or risk getting bullied more
2) they are challenging the legality of legislating things that were done with negotiations in the past (ie labour laws)
3) they should not be have their right to strike legislated away from them
4) the benefits are things that were assumed to be there when they retire

I don't think anyone will cry a river but there is a drawback to their holidays.... they will never be able to say go to winter carnivale as taking that time off can only be done by
1) lying and that would be a big lie that risks their job
2) requesting for an upaid leave which is likely to be denied... funeral or death in the family are probably the exceptions

 

[JohnLarue]

The point is that one COULD earn 90K that's what we were talking about. Not suggesting that each piano or handyman would be equally successful.

No!
The point is that they could not earn 90K by selling piano lessons
No way in hell, this teacher is able to sell 2000 hours per year @ $45/ hr

My buddy has been doing a ton of renos and he's found the hardest part of getting things done was coordinating windows for people to come in as they are so busy.....granted some a licenced trades like plumbers, electricians but even the dry wallers and floor installation and painters were booked solid.

Ask him how easy it would be for a teacher to drop the books and try and earn 90K per year doing renos
1. Say goodbye to the 2 1/2 months off in the summer
2. Job stability is a huge risk here as changes in the housing market could (and probably will) alter the profitability of renovating a property
3. The even bigger risk is said teacher would have to put up and risk capital, probably on more than one property if he / she is targeting 90K/ year.
While some may have the balls to risk $, in general teacher are risk adverse having chossen the stability of govt work
While access to capital should not be an issue (after all they have soaked the province pretty good for big $) having multiple mortgages when the music stops can financially cripple a person
4. Underestimating the amount / cost of required work, unexpected costly surprises, underestimating the time required to compete such a project and overpaying for a property are risks that any person that does renos has to deal with, however these also tend to decrease with the amount of experience

Again 1/1000 teachers could successfully transition from class room to reno specialist and earn a consistent K
A higher proportion might do well enough to maintain a lower lifestyle (EG. 25-50 K)
Some will just break even on the jobs and a few would screw it right up and lose their investment capital
Again 1/1000 teachers could make it work

 

[JohnLarue]

Agreed CAW is a dying industry but your challenge was about salary and not longevity.

Lets be clear
This is not a challenge nor a game
The fact of the matter is teachers can not replace their current compensation and as such should recognize a deal with the province (even with a cut to comp) is a damn site better than they will be able to obtain elsewhere.
Adding rules about the "Challenge" is of zero value

Anyways, we're just going round and round on semantics. We both agree on cuts. We just disagree on perceptions of teachers and their ability to earn similar pay elsewhere.

Your perception is that it's all about money and zero interest in the kids.

You could not be more wrong
I am getting very frustrated with teachers who imply changes to their comp will affect the quality of education and at the same time use the students as pawns via negotiating tactics (This really pisses me off and shows the true character of this group). Shame on all of them for allowing their union to do this !

It is fro the sake of students and future students that there is an urgent need for cost control and maintaining a financially stable province.
Already you are taking about a two tier system and user pay system in order to ensure teachers maintain their excessive compensation
In ten years time when Jimmy in grade 9 asks why there is no football program any more, you can tell him that it was canceled in order to pay for all the sick days teachers banked and cashed in the prior year.
Shame on you !

My take is that it's about principles..... teachers are fighting because
1) they have to or risk getting bullied more
2) they are challenging the legality of legislating things that were done with negotiations in the past (ie labour laws)
3) they should not be have their right to strike legislated away from them
4) the benefits are things that were assumed to be there when they retire

No, they are fighting because they are greedy and place a higher priority on their comp package than the stability of the provinces finances or the best interest of the students and especially future students.

Exactly how can you accept a paycheque from the province worth 90K / year and then say they are bullying you??
That is so fucked up

I don't think anyone will cry a river but there is a drawback to their holidays.... they will never be able to say go to winter carnivale as taking that time off can only be done by
1) lying and that would be a big lie that risks their job
2) requesting for an upaid leave which is likely to be denied... funeral or death in the family are probably the exception

You are correct, no one will shed a single tear that teachers can not attend winter carnival
Jesus Christ !!!!!!! You can not be serious, please tell me you are joking around

Moving to a symestered system and knocking teacher vacation time down to align with the 3-5 weeks the private sector receives would address this problem

 

[good to go]

After school programs are just that, after school. If they do not want to donate their free time to this then that is that. They are not being paid to do after school programs. Those of you who feel so strongly about this can donate their time, instead of berating someone else for their choice.

 

[FAST]

CAW Shots self in foot

Agreed CAW is a dying industry

Glad you made that distinction, while Honda and Toyota continue to hire and INCREASE sales.

FAST

 

[KBear]

Anyways, off the top of my head I can't think of a job in the private sector that a teacher could transition over to and make the same but

private school teacher,
auto plant worker
private music teacher
handyman
and SP

The somehow fully booked music teacher would have their own a studio which costs money, and they would need someone to schedule appointments, meet with customers, collect money.

For the handyman charging $60 per hour, you have forgotten about travel time, time to buy supplies, scheduling and marketing time.

The real estate agent making 90K would have about 20-30K in desk fees and advertizing costs.

SP, maybe if you are a hot young busty girl with a bubbly personality. Deduct 15-30K for the location, 12K for advertizing. You might be able to do it for a few years.

None of these people have pensions, sick days, summers off, job security, health insurance, etc.

Some people in these fields can certainly gross $200K, which would be about equivalent to a teacher’s salary when you factor in teacher benefits, and deduct the contractor’s direct costs, but it would be a very small percentage of the group. Even smaller group if they are only working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.