Loose Change

[ChaosTheory]

On the eve of a moment in time edged in the memory for all those that have not faced a tragedy of this magnitude in their country, or close them, it is a time to reflect and pay respects to those lives lost. Actually everyone no matter where they are should reflect and pay respect to any lives lost due to any situation at any point in time.

Arguably, the events on 9-11 event has had more impact, meaning and consequences than any seen in the last few decades.

Senseless killing leading to more senseless killing.

I was sent a link to this video and thought it would garner some good discussion (however it was probably already has). It is a good piece to watch. Counter arguments/videos are good to watch as well. These all help see things from different perspectives and broaden our minds.

 

[mur11]

Whenever 9/11 rolls around, the nutjobs come out..

 

[ChaosTheory]

Whenever 9/11 rolls around, the nutjobs come out..

It is all a matter of speculation, the way people think, their education, what they are exposed to and their personal opinions..as well as others...

I am watching the Passionate Eye on CBC right now. Good balanced info on for and against the conspiracy theory.

 

[mur11]

It is all a matter of speculation, the way people think, their education, what they are exposed to and their personal opinions..as well as others...

I am watching the Passionate Eye on CBC right now. Good balanced info on for and against the conspiracy theory.

With respect, there's no good evidence that it was a conspiracy. Not everything has two sides. Sometimes there's only one side, the right one.
There's no point in rehashing the mountains of empirical evidence that there is no conspiracy, because if you're fool enough to believe that it was, there's no reasoning with you

 

[jazzpig]

The nice thing about a conspiracy is that the theorists never come up with answers of their own. Or need any basic knowledge about what they are talking about.
They love to simply discount any evidence that disagrees with their opinion with more conspiracy bullshit. Like discounting Richard Clarke for being an "Inside guy" and discounting anything that Mark Loizeaux would say because obviously he's in on it.
It's disingenuous to demand answers from experts and then simply out of hand accuse them of being part of the conspiracy because they disagree with you.
I remember that in one of those "Truth groups" they quoted an engineer's opinion, only for it to come out that he was a LANDSCAPE engineer.

I can't say that I agree with you. Sometimes there are answers but they're not given real consideration for various reasons. With some conspiracies, there's lot's of knowledge and information
that contradicts the conventional explanation. I'm not talking about UFO's, Loch ness monster and paranormal stuff. I'm talking about stuff that's verifiable.
If the engineer's opinion you speak of is related to the 9/11 story, I think it's misleading as there is a huge number of accredited engineers and architects that refute the official version of physical events.
I get that there's a ton of garbage that gets attached to a conspiracy theory, but if you research with an open mind, you may come to some interesting insights.

 

[safari]

Bill Clinton wasn't even able to bang an intern without it getting out, and people believe that GW pulled off 9/11.

 

[jazzpig]

Bill Clinton wasn't even able to bang an intern without it getting out, and people believe that GW pulled off 9/11.

It's not quite the same thing and I don't think it's a case of Bush "pulling it off".
Did you ever find out who killed JFK?
I can't say what happened, or what led up to it, but I certainly think there was more to it than the official version.

 

[jazzpig]

I'm sure 2:47 is all it takes to get to the truth.

 

[Boss Nass]

9/11 was absolutely a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy masterminded by al Qaeda to destroy as much as they could, and create as much paranoid panic as possible, as much in-fighting as possible, for as long as possible. It worked.

Case closed.

 

[Rockslinger]

No Canadian team has won the Stanley Cup in any full season when Gary Bettman has been commissioner (18 consecutive full seasons). Isn't that strange? Got to be a conspiracy.

 

[Rockslinger]

9/11 was absolutely a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy masterminded by al Qaeda to destroy as much as they could, and create as much paranoid panic as possible, as much in-fighting as possible, for as long as possible. It worked.
Case closed.

When he was alive, didn't Osama bin Laden actually say that 9/11 was the work of Al Qaeda. Maybe OBL was actually a CIA operative? Actually, maybe OBL is still alive and living on a ranch in Texas? Keep an open mind.

P.S. And Neil Armstrong wasn't the first man or woman to walk on the moon.

 

[ChaosTheory]

With respect, there's no good evidence that it was a conspiracy. Not everything has two sides. Sometimes there's only one side, the right one.
There's no point in rehashing the mountains of empirical evidence that there is no conspiracy, because if you're fool enough to believe that it was, there's no reasoning with you

I did not say I believe that 9/11 is a conspiracy, I was just passing some perspectives. Personally, I research and try to learn both sides of any coin to prevent ignorance, narrow mindedness and to know what my peers think.

 

[fuji]

9/11 was absolutely a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy masterminded by al Qaeda to destroy as much as they could, and create as much paranoid panic as possible, as much in-fighting as possible, for as long as possible. It worked.

Case closed.

+1

These 9/11 conspiracy types tend to be people who hate the US government and inherently believe that the US is a source of evil in the world. Certainly, the US has done its fair share of dodgy things over the years, especially the CIA. What these people can't accept about 9/11, though, is that it's a case of the US being a victim of evil. It doesn't fit with their ideology that the US is responsible for all the evil--how can it be that such an evil act was perpetrated against Americans, when America, or at least its federal government, is supposed to be the "Great Satan"?

Well how about this:

There's a lot of evil people in the world. Some of those evil people work for the CIA, and while they have enough blame on their doorstep, they were not responsible for 9/11. That was the work of some other evil people who worked for Osama bin Laden. Yes, the US, and Americans generally, are indeed sometimes the victims of evil by others in this world. Surprise surprise.

 

[jazzpig]

Yup. Watch it and even you will see the truth. Just keep an open mind.

I do. I have considered the official explanation, I've considered the evidence refuting the official explanation, and I've
considered the evidence contradicting the evidence refuting the official explanation.
It would be erroneous to assume that anyone who doesn't fully accept the official version just wants to believe what they want to believe.
I agree that there are lots of people that build a case in their own head and become so vested in their own belief system that
they couldn't handle anything that would destabilize the foundation of that belief system. I get that.

Look, I was raised Catholic. I don't buy it. I don't believe in the historical accounts, I don't believe in Jesus as a messiah or his miracles,
I don't believe in the sanctity of the church, I don't believe in God. Not out of anger or rebellion but because it doesn't add up in my mind.
Do I really know where it all started and the meaning of life? No.
Even with scientific enlightment and progress I really can't fully grasp it.
All i know for sure, though, is that I reject my religious upbringing because it makes no sense.
It's kind of along those lines.

Does anybody really accept that JFK was assisinated by a single gunman.
In 1979, House Select Committee On Assinations determined that there was a probable conspiracy in the murder of JFK (as well as RFK and MLK), but unable
to determine it's nature and participants.
That's a lot of ground to give back especially in light of the weight the Warren Commission carried for so long.
So in other words, they're saying "I know the original version is wrong even though I don't know the whole story".
What's wrong with that?
Ironically, as it turned out, it was found that the HSCOA covered up other pertinent evidence that may have shed further light.

 

[benstt]

Loose Change is a bad example to show people this theory. 9/11 truthers themselves have discredited the movie as being full of faulty evidence, pseudo science and lies.

They are a fractious bunch of nut jobs. Some of them think there were no actual planes involved in the WTC attacks, just holograms or some nonsense.

 

[Perry Mason]

Undeniably, 9/11 was a conspiracy. The question is, who was in on it?

Certainly the hijackers. Most likely, a whole team of logistic support on the ground before the event. Quite probably, Al Qaeda.

Who else?

What is so far fetched about a support team on the ground at the event/s?

Possibly a lot of others, too... and most unlikely a whole bunch of others that people would like to think knew.

In that frame of mind, it is reasonable to include -- or exclude, depending on your mind set -- so many others who, after the fact, made some mistakes in the course of investigation.

I think there is always a conspiracy when reason says one person could not have done it alone... which is, IMHO, the problem with the JFK assassination and the "official" explanation.

So let's not argue about conspiracies. That is the wrong question, The right question is who was included in it. What does reason and experience tell us?

Perry

 

[Rockslinger]

Certainly the hijackers. Most likely, a whole team of logistic support on the ground before the event. Quite probably, Al Qaeda.

That whole team of logistic support on the ground is now blaming George W. Bush.

 

[jackson11]

Loose Change???? You really believe that crap??? Last I heard the Dylan Avery that created and narrated that pile of garbage no longer even supports it. And the other creator Cory Rowe was arrested for desertion and heroin dealing. And the other one Jason Bermas was begging for money on the radio and Facebook

Face reality the "Truth Movement" is dead. The only ones left are the few nut jobs that will never understand reality. The "Truth" Movement failed in everything they set out to achieve- no new investigation, no elected president, no impeachment, no concrete theory that can stand up to scientific scrutiny etc etc etc.

Face reality terrorist successfully hijacked planes and flew them into the WTC and the Pentagon. Move on your Truth Movement is dead.

 

[jackson11]

....

 

[fuji]

What is so far fetched about a support team on the ground at the event/s?

It's the claim that the US government planned and directed the attack that is far fetched.

First of all it fails the laugh test. It would have required a large number of *americans* to plan an attack on their own largest city, and kill thousands of their own countrymen. Now maybe there are a couple of people in the US who are so fucked up that they would do this, but in general, someone on the inside would have ratted it out by now. You simply CANNOT rely on your own military, police, etc., to attack your own citizens. This is how governments fall--it's a good way to get your own guys to revolt. The front line guys get there, they set about to do their duty, and then they cave, because killing their own people is not why they signed up for the military, the CIA, or whatever other patriotic duty they think they want to do. Somewhere along the line some Bradley Manning or Deep Throat will leak out hard evidence or even just go directly public. Even if at the time you had found a bunch of guys who were willing to go along with it, by now, ten years later, at least a couple of them would have cracked with guilt and come forward.

So it fails the laugh test at that level. These theories tend to fail even further when you start looking at what they put up as evidence--they are willing, generally, to wild leaps of logic and turn around and tell you to "prove it couldn't have happened". But for the official story their standard is different, any tiniest inconsistency is latched on as proof that the entire story is invented, and they demand people "prove it happened". It's really willful blindness and, quite honestly, stupidity.

In fact I would go so far as to say the level of acceptance of these conspiracy theories is a good measure of how far the US has fallen, how much it has turned against science, fact, and reason, and how willing it is to believe the craziest, most idiotic things. As this level of ignorance grows we will see an increasing number of poor decisions that undermine American society as a whole, as the nation collectively fails to deal with reality.